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Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 24 JAN 2006

#1

Bally's After the Changeover

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html

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http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html</a>

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#2

Bob, nice article.

The term "oriental" isn't such a big thing, but "Ching"?
Come on, Bob.

Regarding your incident, wasn't there any way to have them manually
input the points to your account? Cash back is small, but cash is cash.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@y...> wrote:

Bally's After the Changeover

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html</a>

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#3

Yahtzee wrote: Regarding your incident, wasn't there any way to have
them manually
input the points to your account? Cash back is small, but cash is cash.

        I've been "working" on that --- by making regular phone calls
checking the status. They claim the system is catching up slowly and
should be fine --- and aren't willing to make an adjustment now which
will give me double credit. They currently show a good approximation my
actual hours (which I suspect was manually entered) and about 2/3 of the
coin-in.

        While I am currently being "shortchanged" by less than $200 in
(cashback + "convertible to cash by buying Visa cards" bonus credits),
that's relatively trivial compared to my much bigger concern is that
unless the numbers finally get corrected, they will see my play as
"skimpy" for the amount of bonus cash or gift certificates they are
giving me and cut that back. Reducing those amounts by $1,000 or more a
month would be a much bigger hit.

        I'm willing to be a slightly squeaky wheel, but I am not "going
to the mat" for this. As a famous player whose high stakes play is
"tolerated" (at best) more than "welcomed", making myself a nuisance is
something I am careful not to do. There are others who argue, "It never
hurts to ask." I disagree. Depending on how you phrase things and how
long you keep at it, asking can generate consequences that end up
hurting a lot.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

Bob Dancer wrote:

There are others who argue, "It never hurts to ask." I disagree.
Depending on how you phrase things and how long you keep at it,
asking can generate consequences that end up hurting a lot.

Disagree, or would simply qualify the advice? In the absolute, no
doubt you're right. But there's a reasonable presumption in "never
hurts to ask" that being civil, rational, and applying a lot of common
sense is implicit in how the request is made.

I'd argue that harm can arise from any well-intentioned act that isn't
appropriately executed in a manner that takes circumstances into account.

The adage is specifically targeted at those who reasonably might look
for some type of consideration from a casino but are perhaps a little
too intimidated to ask for it. It's one of the best general pieces of
advice I've ever received (and passed on).

- H.

#5

I can't tell you how much Bally's SDS tracking (which is the system
the former Caesars properties and Harrahs uses) malfunctions has cost
me over the years. It's quite a bit, though, and it's embarrassing
when you know how the system works better than, say, the slot shift
manager.

#6

Harry responded to my disagreement with the "it never hurts to ask"
slogan: Disagree, or would simply qualify the advice? In the
absolute, no doubt you're right. But there's a reasonable presumption
in "never hurts to ask" that being civil, rational, and applying a lot
of common sense is implicit in how the request is made.

I actually disagree. Strongly. Your reasonable presumption of being
"civil, rational, and applying a lot of common sense" is NOT implicit in
this at all. The phrase "it never hurts to ask" makes no such
presumption. The word "never" in there is definitely talking about the
absolute.

If you want to qualify the original by including some version of your
"reasonable presumption", then I would have no problem with it. My
problem is that these caveats are NOT there. And they are certainly not
common sense to everybody including some of the people who spout this
motto the most. I've had conversations with casino executives at more
than one casino who have become very perturbed at {name deleted} because
she keeps pushing the envelope over and over again.

"Common sense" is individually defined. In my own family, I sometimes
feel the need to rein Shirley in as she is very aggressive about getting
what she feels we deserve. She sometimes loses sight (to my way of
thinking) that winning the battle can lead to losing the war. Shirley
sometimes concludes that I'm a wuss for allowing others to get the
better hand. Is Shirley right? Am I right? Who knows for sure? My
position tends to be more cautions than Shirley's. My view is that once
a line is crossed there is often no uncrossing possible.

Some of you live on the East Coast --- including you, Harry. The level
of "pushing" that is acceptable in Atlantic City is different than the
level that is acceptable in Las Vegas simply because the typical
personality in New Jersey is "pushier" than the typical personality in
Vegas. You can criticize me all you want about stereotypes that aren't
always true (and certainly this one isn't always true), but there is
some wisdom here that might be worth considering.

Another point to consider, in addition to Harry's "reasonable
presumption", is "What do I have to lose by asking?" For many people
much of the time, the answer is "nothing at all" and so the absolute "it
never hurts to ask" is appropriate. But for all of us some of the time,
and some of us more than others, there can be a LOT to lose by
continuing to ask away.

An absolute motto that is appropriate 90% of the time and VERY
inappropriate 10% of the time is a dangerous thing.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

Bob Dancer wrote:

I actually disagree. Strongly. Your reasonable presumption of being
"civil, rational, and applying a lot of common sense" is NOT
implicit in this at all. The phrase "it never hurts to ask" makes no
such presumption. The word "never" in there is definitely talking
about the absolute.

Upon reconsideration, Bob, you're right here.

I've assumed that the source of the "never hurts to ask" statement
you've cited is Jean Scott -- who frequently puts forth sentiments of
that nature in her columns.

My presumption ("civil ... etc.") arises from the context in which
that advice is made in her writings and, of course, the fact that the
source is an exemplar of grace and wit herself -- suggesting a spirit
out of which such requests are best made.

However, when taken in isolation, "it never hurts to ask" does present
hazard in the wrong hands.

Addressing a later comment in your post, circumstances have everything
to do with the prudence of pursuing a matter. Savaging a methaphor,
if you're the cat that's just swallowed the canary, it's probably not
a good idea to walk up to the pet owner and ask for gravy for the treat.

- H.

#8

Bob Dancer wrote:

<< While I am currently being "shortchanged" by less than $200 in
(cashback + "convertible to cash by buying Visa cards" bonus credits)>>

How many bonus credits per base credit did you get on that machine?

Cogno

#9

Sometimes it is safer to "fly below the radar". A question might put you "on the scope"
Ted

···

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Dancer <bob.dancer@compdance.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:11 am
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 24 JAN 2006

Harry responded to my disagreement with the "it never hurts to ask"
slogan: Disagree, or would simply qualify the advice? In the
absolute, no doubt you're right. But there's a reasonable presumption
in "never hurts to ask" that being civil, rational, and applying a lot
of common sense is implicit in how the request is made.

I actually disagree. Strongly. Your reasonable presumption of being
"civil, rational, and applying a lot of common sense" is NOT
implicit in
this at all. The phrase "it never hurts to ask" makes no such
presumption. The word "never" in there is definitely talking about the
absolute.

If you want to qualify the original by including some version of your
"reasonable presumption", then I would have no problem with it. My
problem is that these caveats are NOT there. And they are
certainly not
common sense to everybody including some of the people who spout this
motto the most. I've had conversations with casino executives at more
than one casino who have become very perturbed at {name deleted}
becauseshe keeps pushing the envelope over and over again.

"Common sense" is individually defined. In my own family, I sometimes
feel the need to rein Shirley in as she is very aggressive about
gettingwhat she feels we deserve. She sometimes loses sight (to my
way of
thinking) that winning the battle can lead to losing the war. Shirley
sometimes concludes that I'm a wuss for allowing others to get the
better hand. Is Shirley right? Am I right? Who knows for sure? My
position tends to be more cautions than Shirley's. My view is that
oncea line is crossed there is often no uncrossing possible.

Some of you live on the East Coast --- including you, Harry. The
levelof "pushing" that is acceptable in Atlantic City is different
than the
level that is acceptable in Las Vegas simply because the typical
personality in New Jersey is "pushier" than the typical
personality in
Vegas. You can criticize me all you want about stereotypes that aren't
always true (and certainly this one isn't always true), but there is
some wisdom here that might be worth considering.

Another point to consider, in addition to Harry's "reasonable
presumption", is "What do I have to lose by asking?" For many people
much of the time, the answer is "nothing at all" and so the
absolute "it
never hurts to ask" is appropriate. But for all of us some of the
time,and some of us more than others, there can be a LOT to lose by
continuing to ask away.

An absolute motto that is appropriate 90% of the time and VERY
inappropriate 10% of the time is a dangerous thing.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#10

While in LV in December I was pulling a comp slip at Paris and had a brief
conversation with some of the people there who described the day of the
Flamingo change to TR as something of a disaster. They seemed pretty
apprehensive regarding the Paris/Bally's conversion. I have had enough
problems with comp/cb accounts that I take notice of and record points for
every session.

Chandler

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Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:15 PM
To: vpFREE@Yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Bob Dancer's CasinoGaming Column - 24 JAN 2006

Bally's After the Changeover

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html

<a href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html</a>

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constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
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#11

<<I've assumed that the source of the "never hurts to ask" statement
you've cited is Jean Scott -- who frequently puts forth sentiments of
that nature in her columns.

My presumption ("civil ... etc.") arises from the context in which
that advice is made in her writings and, of course, the fact that the
source is an exemplar of grace and wit herself -- suggesting a spirit
out of which such requests are best made.>>

Thank you, Harry Porter. I appreciate your always-a-gentleman comments. I wish that others were so polite even when they disagree.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#12

Bob Dancer wrote: <<If you want to qualify the original by including some version of your
"reasonable presumption", then I would have no problem with it. My
problem is that these caveats are NOT there. And they are certainly not
common sense to everybody including some of the people who spout this
motto the most. I've had conversations with casino executives at more
than one casino who have become very perturbed at {name deleted} because
she keeps pushing the envelope over and over again.>>

Hummmmm. And people wonder if players who also consult with casinos mention specific names of other advantage players?

Hummmmm. So there is someone else besides Rob Singer who likes to attack other well-known players in only so lightly veiled comments that only a idiot wouldn't know who they were talking about.

Hummmmm. I have never been barred by a casino and there is only one casino company who has taken my name off their mailing, during a time when they were doing a purge of a whole group of advantage player, not singling me out. Other than this one company, I am welcome to play and enjoy all slot club benefits and comps in casino all over the U.S., something many pros can not say. In fact, if you talk to my hosts all over Las Vegas, they would say that Brad and I underuse our comps.

Here is an article I wrote for Strictly Slots many years ago. Perhaps this will make clear my advice about "asking," although most people already know how I feel about using common sense.

USE- DON'T ABUSE-THE COMP SYSTEM

by Jean Scott

            While I was writing The Frugal Gambler, my husband, Brad, commented, "I bet no one would ever want to do all the penny-pinching measures you write about-especially when they're on vacation in a casino town."

            I agreed. "I doubt that anyone will try to implement all of the hundreds of tips in the book. But people can pick and choose the ones that are easiest and most valuable to them."

            As it turned out, that's what the great majority of readers did. However, to my surprise, I found that a few grabbed The Frugal Gambler and took it farther than I ever imagined anyone would.

            As a teacher, I was always pleased when my students did well, and as an author, one of the greatest joys is learning that my book has made a positive impact. When readers tells me that before The Frugal Gambler they knew little or nothing about the casino comp system, but now they're getting their fair share of the freebies, it's music to my ears. However-and I never thought I'd have to write this-I must warn against taking my frugal comp suggestions too far.

            To avoid disappointment or embarrassment, consider some of the following guidelines.

            . Comps are given to reward casino play. You do not "deserve" comps just for walking into a casino. Management likes you to stay in their rooms, eat at their restaurants, buy in their shops, and watch their shows, but they won't give you a comp for doing so. The comp system is set up to encourage loyalty and reward play; casinos want you to come back and play with them rather than in the casino next door or the one closer to your hometown. Comps are for those who give the casino a shot at their gambling bankroll; don't expect them for sightseeing.

            . Match your comp expectations with your play. The comp system is multi-tiered, based mainly on the amount of money you put through the machine (whether by feeding coins or bills, or playing credits). Obviously, a nickel slot player with four hours of action shouldn't expect nearly as many comps as a slot player with four hours of dollar play. In addition, many casinos take into consideration other, more complicated factors. Video poker players often earn half the comps slot players earn; some casinos cut the comp rate on multi-line video poker; and many base comps on the player's theoretical loss assigned to each machine.

            To determine a reasonable comp expectation for your level of play, start at the slot club booth. Brochures often spell out exactly what it takes to earn free rooms, show tickets, meals at the various restaurants, and other perks. If there are no brochures, the slot club personnel can sometimes give you this information. If the details still seem unclear or if you want to be sure you know as much as possible, ask to see a host. Be up front-explain that you don't want to be embarrassed by asking for more comps than you've earned. An unassuming manner will usually get you plenty of information about that casino's comp system. It might even help you get a few more comps than you "deserve."

            . Also, match your comp expectations to the property and its location. Obviously, the newest luxury resort on the Las Vegas Strip will demand more play for a room comp than a downtown casino that's scrambling for business. An isolated casino that enjoys a monopoly can be less generous than one that's sitting in the middle of umpteen competing ones.

            . Don't expect too much too fast. Some people read about how Brad and I have stayed in casino rooms for more than half the year for free, and they want to get free rooms their first trip to Vegas. Although a high roller can often get his room comped the first time he visits a particular casino, the typical recreational player or first-timer goes the low-roller route.

            Nearly 20 years ago, I booked our first Vegas vacation, an air-room package, through a travel agent. We were blackjack players at the time, and we played a lot at one casino, with the pit bosses rating our action. A few weeks after returning home, we received an offer for a free three-night stay on our second visit. Then we started "collecting" casinos, using the same routine: playing, getting rated, and fielding free room offers. After we switched to video poker and joined the slot clubs, we went through the same procedure, playing in one "core" casino until we'd reached the required level for the free-room offers, then adding one casino at a time. After about eight years, we had enough free room offers that we could combine them into long stays.

            . Many casinos reward long-term loyalty. We found that the more we visited a casino, the less play per day it took to keep qualified for the free-room offers. At one casino, after achieving a certain number of lifetime slot club points, we were eligible for a suite without having to earn any daily points to keep qualified. We earned this high-roller comp in just a few years of frequent visits, though we were low-roller quarter video poker players at the time.

            . Finally, don't expect everything to be comped. I charge everything to my comped rooms, hoping that the charges will be "forgiven" at the end of the stay. But in most cases, the casino won't pick up tips and phone calls. We always expect to pay our own tips; this is our biggest casino expense. Charges for phone calls, however, really bug me. I'm used to losing thousands of dollars without complaining, but pleeeeeese don't charge me $1 every time I want to call a local friend or business. Occasionally, complaints to my host make these piddly charges disappear-but not nearly often enough.

            Some people hint that they think I abuse comps. Most people figure that because I'm called the Queen of Comps, I stretch the system to its outer limits. But I don't take advantage of the comp system as much as I could. Even though we play enough to get unlimited room offers, we now have our own place in Vegas, so we only use our free rooms when we want a "mini-vacation" in a luxury setting or when family or friends come to visit. In fact, Brad accuses me of being as tight with comps as I am with money; he says we won't live long enough to eat all the meals in our casino comp accounts all over the country. I can't change, I guess. I keep saving my comps for some rainy day that might come up in the future.

            When I'm in a casino, I always remember that I'm their guest. I want to be as easy to get along with as I would be when I visit anyone's home. I certainly don't want to be demanding, rude, or take hospitality for granted. After all, I want to be invited back.

···

________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#13

Cogno asked: How many bonus credits per base credit did you get on that
machine?

That's one of the mysteries right now. That's part of what I need to
find out in order to judge the value of the promotion, bankroll
requirements, etc. Right now, even with 0 bonus credits, the play is
decent enough (if your heart/bank account can stand $375 a hand) but not
having all the information is irritating.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

I didn't need to use the pronoun "she" in my example of comp
abuse. I apologize to Jean and anyone else offended.

        I believe the phrasing, "Use, don't abuse, comps" is
considerably better than "It never hurts to ask." Had this phrasing been
used, there would have been no reason for this discussion.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#15

I guess its time to break out the steel cage!

Bob vs. Jean could sell a lot of tickets.

(sorry couldn't resist...)

...
lots of stuff deleted
....

            When I'm in a casino, I always remember that I'm their

guest. I

want to be as easy to get along with as I would be when I visit

anyone's

home. I certainly don't want to be demanding, rude, or take

hospitality for

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <QueenofComps@f...> wrote:

granted. After all, I want to be invited back.

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
   for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
   of your questions!

#16

Bob,

Quick question, which game do you favor or were you playing? DB,
JOB ? DBP ?

Good write up BTW.

-Ed

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@y...>
wrote:

Bally's After the Changeover

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html

<a

href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html">

···

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0124.html</a>

************************************************

This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
in accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.

************************************************

#17

Hummmmm. And people wonder if players who also consult with casinos

mention

specific names of other advantage players?

Naahhhhh..never would happen LOL...we're all unified, rememember? Or
is that vilified?

Hummmmm. So there is someone else besides Rob Singer who likes to

attack

other well-known players in only so lightly veiled comments that only a
idiot wouldn't know who they were talking about.

The trick is to not become so well-known, and that, while not exactly
being an art form, you do have to subjugate your ego a little bit. I
have seen it happen many a time over the years where a highly
successful AP thought they could parlay their success into something
more mainstream, usually publishing. In practice, it usually doesn't
work that way. The truly successful don't publish unless, in the rare
event that their EV is very high and they can't play anymore. In the
blackjack world, many of those guys have gone on to something bigger
and better. Most of the really good APs realize it's a very Darwinian
process and either they survive, or they get tagged as APs and move on.

Myself personally, I have three modes: invisible, non-descript, and
obvious sucker. I have always looked upon entering a casino as merely
a business opportunity, and playing is merely a transactional event.

Hummmmm. I have never been barred by a casino and there is only one

casino

company who has taken my name off their mailing, during a time when

they

were doing a purge of a whole group of advantage player, not

singling me

out. Other than this one company, I am welcome to play and enjoy

all slot

club benefits and comps in casino all over the U.S., something many

pros can

not say. In fact, if you talk to my hosts all over Las Vegas,

they would

say that Brad and I underuse our comps.

Jean, I'd suggest to you you're not trying hard enough, but part of it
is where you're playing. For example, Stations and Harrahs understand
that some players will be smarter than others, but it's a waste of
resources to figure out which ones are which (at least for the
present), and it's factored in their respective business plans. MGM
Mirage seem to take it a little more personally, but many of their
"no-mailees" have been backed off from BJ or are in Griffin or other
AP databases. They're actually fairly smart about how they go about
their business, but that discussion is for another time. You can
safely assume that you're pretty much fungible goods, especially if
you want to go pound the 9-6 multi-line Jacks at their properties.

#18

Bob Dancer wrote:

<<Cogno asked: How many bonus credits per base credit did you get on that
machine?

That's one of the mysteries right now. That's part of what I need to find
out in order to judge the value of the promotion, bankroll requirements,
etc. Right now, even with 0 bonus credits, the play is decent enough (if
your heart/bank account can stand $375 a hand) but not having all the
information is irritating.>>

Here's the Cogno Kreskin prediction for those machines: bonus RCs: 0.
Bounceback cash: 0.0275%.

Remember, you heard it here first.

Cogno

#19

Ed asked: Quick question, which game do you favor or were you playing?
DB,
JOB ? DBP ?

The game I favor is impossible to answer without also giving me exact
information on slot club, promotions, and other relevant reasons to
play. It's different at every casino.

At Bally's, the game in question was 9/6 Jacks.

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#20

Cogno predicted: Here's the Cogno Kreskin prediction for those machines:
bonus RCs: 0.
Bounceback cash: 0.0275%. Remember, you heard it here first.

As Johnny Carson used to say, may the fleas of a thousand camels invest
your armpits! Don't even THINK numbers like that!

Bob Dancer

For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]