vpFREE2 Forums

Bj and Vp - good games turned bad

#1

Hi all

Just read and article by Frank Scoblete in Casino Player - June.
Scobe writes of the good old days of Bj when the rules were good for
the player. The casinos somewhere along the line discovered that
tightening the Bj rules would give casino a big boost in profit. Wow,
the new casino gaming manager thought he discovered the wheel again.
Other casinos copied the idea. The problem the not so good players
started losing lots of dough and they got beat up so bad that they
quit playing the game. The better players quit also as they know when
the rules are bad for player. Of course, the few card counters left
fast. By raising casino win, casinos have all but ruined the game of
bj for the players and for themselves. Look around the joints and see
the number of tables shrinking. I would post a link to the article
but I would have to link you all to my bathroom as that's where my
Casino Player is.

The same thing is going to happen to Vp if the tightening of pay
tables continue. These casino folks seem to think if a Vp game can
net win for casino $300 in a day @ 99% pay table, then at 98% they
will net $600 a day. They don't believe in giving the customer a
little play time. Too many of us here on Vp free agree with the
casino; higher casino win is good business. Players don't like it
but agree casino is smart to make better $$. Just like with Bj the
casinos will kill the Vp goose that is laying the Vp golden egg.

I have posted many times over the years about theory; giving all the
players a good gamble would help the casinos in long run. Every time
maybe one or two VpFree posters would actually agree it is a good
move. Scobe says it so clearly, relating to Bj. I think Dancer kinda
believes in the same theory.(a few others too) In the old days
casinos were run by gamblers. They understood how the players felt.
Today the "mega gambling resorts" are run by corporations. You have
slot managers afraid to step out there and do what needs to be done.
Too many folks above watching the numbers.

Just a thought that means nothing to us or the casinos. Who's
listening? When was the last time anyone has asked any of us our
opinion on gaming? I believe there are many here that could do a darn
better job running things with the slot games. However, what would a
gambler know about gambling?

Cheers.......Jeep

#2

whitejeeps wrote:

The same thing is going to happen to Vp if the tightening of pay
tables continue. These casino folks seem to think if a Vp game can
net win for casino $300 in a day @ 99% pay table, then at 98% they
will net $600 a day. They don't believe in giving the customer a
little play time. Too many of us here on Vp free agree with the
casino; higher casino win is good business. Players don't like it
but agree casino is smart to make better $$. Just like with Bj the
casinos will kill the Vp goose that is laying the Vp golden egg.

I appreciate your sentiments, jeeps. But there's a difference in
psyche between the average blackjack player and vp player -- frankly,
bj players (no matter how recreational) are a couple notches up on the
sophistication ladder. Run of the mill vp players aren't so quick to
take their money and run when paytables weaken.

I wanted to believe that, in a relatively knowledgable market like LV,
players would desert Suncoast when they ditched FPDW and
(unimaginably) FPDB, and that Suncoast would signal retreat on its
assault. Someone may assert that Suncoast has since suffered and that
it's only their pride that prevents them from admitting their mistake
and restoring the paytables. However I expect, even if play volume
has fallen to a degree, that profits are up.

There's no doubt that there's a paytable threshold below which play
will fall disasterously off for the casinos. But it's clear that for
most casinos that point falls short of 100%+ ER games, and for some
it's short of 99%+.

We can ask for stronger paytables but it's only when the casino sees a
largely empty casino that there will be real persuasion. That's the
strongest argument I see validating the education efforts of Scott,
Dancer, et al.

- Harry

#3

A great article. Fortunately, there are still great BJ and VP games
for those willing to seek them out. Take Wynn as an example. They
really didn't have to put in nine (now four) full-pay machines, but
they did anyway; and apparently at the urging of a former vpFREE
member. So they get my business a couple of nights a week and another
casino loses my business on those nights. Sure, I am just one player
that plays quarters, but any other locals that now play at Wynn were
playing somewhere else before Wynn offered the full-pays.

On the other hand, the majority of casino gamblers these days are slot
players, who seem to not care about percentage payback. They want to
be entertained and the casinos have obliged. If that wasn't enough, a
lot of people in the casino aren't even gambling. I was at Caesars
late last night and there were more clubbers than gamblers.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "whitejeeps" <whitejeeps@...> wrote:

Hi all

Just read and article by Frank Scoblete in Casino Player - June.
Scobe writes of the good old days of Bj when the rules were good for
the player. The casinos somewhere along the line discovered that
tightening the Bj rules would give casino a big boost in profit.

Cheers.......Jeep

#4

whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote: I have posted many times over the years about theory; giving all the
players a good gamble would help the casinos in long run. Every time
maybe one or two VpFree posters would actually agree it is a good
move. Scobe says it so clearly, relating to Bj. I think Dancer kinda
believes in the same theory.(a few others too) In the old days
casinos were run by gamblers. They understood how the players felt.
Today the "mega gambling resorts" are run by corporations. You have
slot managers afraid to step out there and do what needs to be done.
Too many folks above watching the numbers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
   
  Just read John L. Smith's book "Sharks in the Desert" and he says pretty much the same thing. When the mob ran Vegas it was a much more gambler friendly place. The new corporate sharks are bent on acquiring all the properties they can, and don't mind trampling the players as there are more to come all the time. Look at the room rates in Vegas, also the occupancy rates. They don't need low to mid rollers to make money so they continue to tighten the screws on games and comps.
   
  Every thing is cyclical - and soon the economy will stall and Vegas will start to suffer, competition will begin to return, and the "players" that are left will be courted once again. Some of these places are so leveraged that even a mild downturn will send their stocks tumbling and they will compete again to pump up the bottom line.
   
  It will never be as good as it was, but I am betting it will improve. Unfortunately it may take a good old fashioned recession to get the job done, but that will happen too.
   
  Just my 2 cents on a lazy Friday evening.
   
  Cheers!
   
  Jigger
  "On some days, my head is filled with such wild and original thoughts that I can barely utter a word. On other days, the liquor store is closed."

···

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#5

AMEN to that brother. IMHO the tide has not (yet) turned for most casinos (on the strip),
concerning VP. They will continue to lower paytables until that happens. If they lower the
paytables and profits increase (as is happening), there is no reason that they should not
try going down another notch. They will keep going that until that happens. Who knows
what level that will finally be?

If I remember correctly, BC went from FPDW to NSUD some time ago. But, look at how fast
they returned to NSUD when they tried lowering their DW tables below NSUD.

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

it's only when the casino sees a
largely empty casino that there will be real persuasion.

- Harry

#6

LV, players would desert Suncoast when they ditched FPDW and
(unimaginably) FPDB, and that Suncoast would signal retreat on its
assault.

Someone may assert that Suncoast has since suffered and that it's
only their pride that prevents them from admitting their mistake and
restoring the paytables. However I expect, even if play volume has
fallen to a degree, that profits are up.

  - Harry

they did desert the suncoast big time and now they only play the Nx
cashback promotion days.

whenever I wander into the suncoast I think of all the days when the
good machines were packed and the bad ones were as well. now I look
with amazement at all the empty seats.

oh well thats a horse by committee for you.

timmer

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

I wanted to believe that, in a relatively knowledgable market like

#7

Hi guys,
   
  I live in the Mid-South . My nearest casino's are Tunica, Harrah's Metropolis, and several Aztar riverboats. To the best of my knowledge, NO full pay/positive Vp is offered at any of these gaming establishments and never has been offered since their birth. I doubt that those like Bob, Jean, and many of you would even find anything that you would consider to be playable at these locations. However, the lack of even slightly decent VP doesn't seem to impact them negatively at all. They always seem to have a full house!
   
  Take care,
   
  Nita

  AMEN to that brother. IMHO the tide has not (yet) turned for most casinos (on the strip),
concerning VP. They will continue to lower paytables until that happens. If they lower the
paytables and profits increase (as is happening), there is no reason that they should not
try going down another notch. They will keep going that until that happens. Who knows
what level that will finally be?

If I remember correctly, BC went from FPDW to NSUD some time ago. But, look at how fast
they returned to NSUD when they tried lowering their DW tables below NSUD.

.....bl

···

bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

it's only when the casino sees a
largely empty casino that there will be real persuasion.

- Harry

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#8

My real feelings on the coast debacle is that they couldnt fade the
Nx promotion days cash back drain. so rather than torching the CB
all together they plundered the main VP inventory.

And yes the coast ARE in trouble hence the boyd buy out.

Boyd has +EV VP but only .10% cash back.

~t

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@>

wrote:

> I wanted to believe that, in a relatively knowledgable market

like

LV, players would desert Suncoast when they ditched FPDW and
(unimaginably) FPDB, and that Suncoast would signal retreat on its
assault.

Someone may assert that Suncoast has since suffered and that

it's

only their pride that prevents them from admitting their mistake

and

restoring the paytables. However I expect, even if play volume

has

fallen to a degree, that profits are up.

  - Harry

they did desert the suncoast big time and now they only play the

Nx

cashback promotion days.

whenever I wander into the suncoast I think of all the days when

the

good machines were packed and the bad ones were as well. now I

look

···

- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "timmer" <timmr21@...> wrote:

with amazement at all the empty seats.

oh well thats a horse by committee for you.

timmer

#9

timmer wrote:

My real feelings on the coast debacle is that they couldnt face the
Nx promotion days cash back drain. so rather than torching the CB
all together they plundered the main VP inventory.

Possibly. But excluding the best inventory from the promotion would
be the favored alternative (of course, even Palms stumbled on that one).

And yes the coast ARE in trouble hence the boyd buy out.

I thought they were shopping the stock before the inventory cuts.

- H.

#10

OMG! I keep my Casino Player magazine in the bathroom, too!
The articles are just about the right length for each visit.

···

On 6/2/06, whitejeeps <whitejeeps@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all

Just read and article by Frank Scoblete in Casino Player - June.
Scobe writes of the good old days of Bj when the rules were good for
the player. The casinos somewhere along the line discovered that
tightening the Bj rules would give casino a big boost in profit. Wow,
the new casino gaming manager thought he discovered the wheel again.
Other casinos copied the idea. The problem the not so good players
started losing lots of dough and they got beat up so bad that they
quit playing the game. The better players quit also as they know when
the rules are bad for player. Of course, the few card counters left
fast. By raising casino win, casinos have all but ruined the game of
bj for the players and for themselves. Look around the joints and see
the number of tables shrinking. I would post a link to the article
but I would have to link you all to my bathroom as that's where my
Casino Player is.

The same thing is going to happen to Vp if the tightening of pay
tables continue. These casino folks seem to think if a Vp game can
net win for casino $300 in a day @ 99% pay table, then at 98% they
will net $600 a day. They don't believe in giving the customer a
little play time. Too many of us here on Vp free agree with the
casino; higher casino win is good business. Players don't like it
but agree casino is smart to make better $$. Just like with Bj the
casinos will kill the Vp goose that is laying the Vp golden egg.

I have posted many times over the years about theory; giving all the
players a good gamble would help the casinos in long run. Every time
maybe one or two VpFree posters would actually agree it is a good
move. Scobe says it so clearly, relating to Bj. I think Dancer kinda
believes in the same theory.(a few others too) In the old days
casinos were run by gamblers. They understood how the players felt.
Today the "mega gambling resorts" are run by corporations. You have
slot managers afraid to step out there and do what needs to be done.
Too many folks above watching the numbers.

Just a thought that means nothing to us or the casinos. Who's
listening? When was the last time anyone has asked any of us our
opinion on gaming? I believe there are many here that could do a darn
better job running things with the slot games. However, what would a
gambler know about gambling?

Cheers.......Jeep

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

Two good points below ---To Harry-- Less play on reduced pay table
machines and more profits is the fuel that feeds the fire. You and I
both "expect" profits to be up. The casino suits use these figures to
bolster their actions. I suspect the profits are comming at the
expense of the other bad paying machines in the casino. Before the
not so good players couldn't get to the better machines so they
played other ones. Quarter FPDW in a local joint might be a break
even game for casino. $1 would be out today and a loser for casino,
we would both agree. My thought is; reducing pay tables sends a
segment of the business down the road. I remember when Rio opened. As
I recall, old tin refirb machines painted crazy colors. The vp was
good then. I suspect the slots were good too. They had about30 keno
machines in a group; packed with players. Rio started cheap and
offered a good gamble and made money. The Palms is another open up
with good machine inventory. I think it was a favorite here at
VpFree. These "little" places would be toast today if they didn't
build a customer base from offering good gambling. After they get a
foothold they want to kick out the players who made them in the
beginning.

"Harry Porter" <harry.porter@> wrote:

> I wanted to believe that, in a relatively knowledgable market

like

LV, players would desert Suncoast when they ditched FPDW and
(unimaginably) FPDB, and that Suncoast would signal retreat on its
assault.

Someone may assert that Suncoast has since suffered and that it's
only their pride that prevents them from admitting their mistake

and

restoring the paytables. However I expect, even if play volume has
fallen to a degree, that profits are up.

  - Harry

To timmer

The same thing happened at the Taj in AC. The CB cut and good
machines gone or changed. Machines actually changed from 9/6 JOB to
newer 9/6 JOB and customers don't like it. Not really Trumps fault
because N.J. has some kind of law about having to renew machines
every so often.(I think info correct about changing machines) The
customer is fickle, both advantage and non advantage. Anyway, when
good machines at Taj and CB was .006+ the place was making $$. As you
write, "the good machines were packed and the bad ones as well." Taj
cut CB and the comps and the place is empty. 3 years ago you couldn't
get a slot or video machine in the large high limit room. Now high
limit slot room is empty. You still see some of the old players on
special promos. Some say the other casinos are competing better.
Others say customers went to new property in town. But, I was there.
I watched and heard the players complain loudly. They didn't
say, "let's go over to the new place and take a look." It was more
like this; "They think they are funny. Cut my CB? I'm outa here."

Just a few thoughts.....

Cheers.....Jeep

they did desert the suncoast big time and now they only play the Nx

cashback promotion days.

whenever I wander into the suncoast I think of all the days when

the

···

good machines were packed and the bad ones were as well. now I look
with amazement at all the empty seats.

oh well thats a horse by committee for you.

timmer

#12

Anita,

There are some casinos in Tunica that have 9/6 JOB at Sheraton, Resorts, Gold Stike, Ballys, and Sams Town. Sheraton has 9/7 TDB. Caesars in Louisville has 9/6 JOB, 8/5 Bonus. Aztar in Evansville has a couple of 9/7 TDB and 8/5 Bonus at the $5.00 level.
Decent plays for this area, definitely not like Vegas or AC.

Kim

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: anita walker
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Bj and Vp - good games turned bad

  Hi guys,
     
    I live in the Mid-South . My nearest casino's are Tunica, Harrah's Metropolis, and several Aztar riverboats. To the best of my knowledge, NO full pay/positive Vp is offered at any of these gaming establishments and never has been offered since their birth. I doubt that those like Bob, Jean, and many of you would even find anything that you would consider to be playable at these locations. However, the lack of even slightly decent VP doesn't seem to impact them negatively at all. They always seem to have a full house!
     
    Take care,
     
    Nita

  bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:
    AMEN to that brother. IMHO the tide has not (yet) turned for most casinos (on the strip),
  concerning VP. They will continue to lower paytables until that happens. If they lower the
  paytables and profits increase (as is happening), there is no reason that they should not
  try going down another notch. They will keep going that until that happens. Who knows
  what level that will finally be?

  If I remember correctly, BC went from FPDW to NSUD some time ago. But, look at how fast
  they returned to NSUD when they tried lowering their DW tables below NSUD.

  .....bl

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
  >
  > it's only when the casino sees a
  > largely empty casino that there will be real persuasion.
  >
  > - Harry

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#13

Do you think it has a lot to do with simply the overall makeup of
their revenue stream? I think one of the questions a casino asks
itself is how dependent it is on (reasonably) knowledgable players.

Per the 2005 Nevada Gaming Abstract, gaming revenue accounts
for "only" 40.9% of the total revenue on the strip, but it's 59%
downtown, and 75% on Boulder Highway. And I think, in general, that
is about the ratio of how the games are. I think AC casinos are
even higher.

It makes sense to me that a casino which depends on gaming for 80-
90% of its revenue would be much more sensitive to a drop in action
than a strip casino. (We must keep in mind that it's never this
simple, downtown casinos have the advantage of unintended foot
traffic; strip casinos have the advantage of having the whole world
available in a closed environment, and I'm sure there's a lot more
complexities than that).

The fact is that if you offer enough to get people in the casino,
they are bound to gamble there (almost) no matter how lousy the
paytables are (for validation of this, see the Rio Bikini BJ tables
where BJ pays even money). Someone who is paying $400 for a room at
Rio or $800 for a room at Bellagio, and then $500 for show tickets,
$1000 for meals, $500 for spa, etc, is likely not too concerned that
the quarter VP is short one coin for getting a full house. And
that's just fine by the casino.

I went to the ballgame the other night....$60 ticket, $15 parking.
So when it's $4 for a soda, $5.50 for peanuts, $6 for a hot dog---I
mean, I KNOW that's ridiculous for soda and peanuts. And I'm not an
expert in hot dog strategy, I don't subscribe to magazines to tell
me the best places to buy peanuts, and I've never been a member of a
yahoo group on SodaFree. But I still know it's a rip. So does the
ballpark. But there I am, they know I already paid $75 just to get
in, and I'm bound and determined to have a good time while I'm
there, and if that means $20 for some ballpark food, well ok.

Now, I suppose I could try to rally all the fans to stop buying
peanuts and make the ballpark lower the price, but they are still
selling out and apparently have not reached the point of diminishing
hot dog return. And I don't think it's going to happen anytime
soon.

#14

Hi guys,
   
  I live in the Mid-South . My nearest casino's are Tunica,

Harrah's Metropolis, and several Aztar riverboats. To the best of
my knowledge, NO full pay/positive Vp is offered at any of these
gaming establishments and never has been offered since their birth.

  
You can still find lots of 9/6 JB in these markets, often positive
overall when cb and other benefits are included.

There have also been instances of stand-alone positive plays. The
best of which I am aware was at the Tunica Sheraton (late 90's)
which, contrary to your assertion, was "birthed" with full pay .25
AA at every machine in the bar close to registration and with
several other .50 AA machines both in and along the outside wall of
the high roller area. Along with these excellent games was .5 cb,
sometimes multiplied, and a $100 limit daily to use in their very
nice gift shop. The play was so strong that ML and I stopped our
regular monthly LV trips in favor of Tunica jaunts.

Pete

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, anita walker <ab4nita@...> wrote:

#15

OMG! I keep my Casino Player magazine in the bathroom, too!
The articles are just about the right length for each visit.

Funny, but that is often the criteria for article length for many magazines
(not necessarily CP.) When asked for a word count they say, "just long
enough so you can read it in the john!"

Scot

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
Curtis Rich
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:51 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Bj and Vp - good games turned bad

#16

Curtis Rich <LGTVegas@gmail.com> wrote: OMG! I keep my Casino Player magazine in the bathroom, too!
The articles are just about the right length for each visit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<M>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
   
  I'm thinkin' that may be just a tad bit more information than most of us needed...........
   
  Jig
  "The good thing about masturbation is that you don't have to dress up for it."
   
  "To truly love another, you must first love yourself. And it wouldn't kill you to wash your hands in between either."

···

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#17

I just got back from a seven day stay at the Venetian. I played
BJ across the street @ The Mirage where they are still dealing
2 deck, no hit on soft seventeen, BJ. I varied my bet between one
hand at $25 and two hands at $100. I always quit before my profit hit
$2,000 in a session, and I received no heat for counting.

In the past I've been tossed from TI and Golden Nugget, so I actually
think that if you're not a pig about it, and you visit sporadically,
you can still find good BJ in Las Vegas.

BTW, I don't play BJ at Venetian for two reasons. First, I don't want
to ruin my RFB there, and second, outside of the high limit pit the
dealer hits on a soft 17.

P.S. I also checked out WYNN. Only a few tables with good two deck
blackjack. Minimums were $100 or more on a Monday night and the pit
bosses were breathing down the player's necks.

#18

Once I was told by a slot host that Tunica gaming law prohibits "FULL PAY" VP machines. Does anyone know anything about this and if it is fact ?
   
  Thanks!
   
Darryl and Kim <darrylandkim@charter.net> wrote:
  Anita,

There are some casinos in Tunica that have 9/6 JOB at Sheraton, Resorts, Gold Stike, Ballys, and Sams Town. Sheraton has 9/7 TDB. Caesars in Louisville has 9/6 JOB, 8/5 Bonus. Aztar in Evansville has a couple of 9/7 TDB and 8/5 Bonus at the $5.00 level.
Decent plays for this area, definitely not like Vegas or AC.

Kim

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: anita walker
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Bj and Vp - good games turned bad

  Hi guys,
     
    I live in the Mid-South . My nearest casino's are Tunica, Harrah's Metropolis, and several Aztar riverboats. To the best of my knowledge, NO full pay/positive Vp is offered at any of these gaming establishments and never has been offered since their birth. I doubt that those like Bob, Jean, and many of you would even find anything that you would consider to be playable at these locations. However, the lack of even slightly decent VP doesn't seem to impact them negatively at all. They always seem to have a full house!
     
    Take care,
     
    Nita

  bornloser1537 <bornloser1537@yahoo.com> wrote:
    AMEN to that brother. IMHO the tide has not (yet) turned for most casinos (on the strip),
  concerning VP. They will continue to lower paytables until that happens. If they lower the
  paytables and profits increase (as is happening), there is no reason that they should not
  try going down another notch. They will keep going that until that happens. Who knows
  what level that will finally be?

  If I remember correctly, BC went from FPDW to NSUD some time ago. But, look at how fast
  they returned to NSUD when they tried lowering their DW tables below NSUD.

  .....bl

  --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:
  >
  > it's only when the casino sees a
  > largely empty casino that there will be real persuasion.
  >
  > - Harry

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#19

To mention something discussed many times, it's worth revisiting.
Don't be a "pig". In the past in vp I remember good progressives very
playable. The "teams" would come in and buy cans of quarters. Bold,
loud and intimidating everyone they could. No valadators then. If I
can remember that far back, a can held $250 in quarters. Many folks
are not so sure of there play and they are uncomfortable with a bunch
of morons talking and laughing behind them. Worse yet, seconds after
machine gets to 0 credits, pros asking "are you done yet?" They also
had a habit of placing a jacket on next seat and coining up a few
credits and calling a friend or two. Ask for the seat and it's, "oh,
they are in the bathroom" or some other bs. I think, many
progressives scratched because of complaints from tourist. It wasn't
because cash box was negative. The players fund the jackpot not the
house.

Cheers...Jeep

I just got back from a seven day stay at the Venetian. I played
BJ across the street @ The Mirage where they are still dealing
2 deck, no hit on soft seventeen, BJ. I varied my bet between one
hand at $25 and two hands at $100. I always quit before my profit

hit

$2,000 in a session, and I received no heat for counting.

In the past I've been tossed from TI and Golden Nugget, so I

actually

think that if you're not a pig about it, and you visit

sporadically,

you can still find good BJ in Las Vegas.

BTW, I don't play BJ at Venetian for two reasons. First, I don't

want

to ruin my RFB there, and second, outside of the high limit pit the
dealer hits on a soft 17.

P.S. I also checked out WYNN. Only a few tables with good two deck
blackjack. Minimums were $100 or more on a Monday night and the

pit

···

.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "sjs5572z" <sjs5572z@...> wrote:

bosses were breathing down the player's necks.

#20

This is the stuff I like about vpFREE. It's so informative!

Jeep

.
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scot Krause" <krauseinvegas@...>
wrote:

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On

Behalf Of

Curtis Rich
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 10:51 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Bj and Vp - good games turned bad

OMG! I keep my Casino Player magazine in the bathroom, too!
The articles are just about the right length for each visit.

Funny, but that is often the criteria for article length for many

magazines

(not necessarily CP.) When asked for a word count they say, "just

long

···

-----Original Message-----
enough so you can read it in the john!"

Scot