--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <diversified_slave@...>
wrote:
Please specify which casinos you are refering to.
Are you aware that the casinos read these messages also?
Best Property for approx 100k-150k coin in/year?
Very interesting article! Thanks for posting it.
BTW, did you note that Steve Bernier, the Summerlin slot winner,
DELIBRATELY played (and subsequently won $17K) on a MALFUNCTIONING
$1 machine that had erroneously been programmed to pay out as though
it was a $100 slot.
While this certainly does not excuse the egregious treatment that he
received at the hands of Casino Security and other officials, this
man was taking advantage of an obvious casino mistake. With the
smallest of stretchs, this could be labeled a form of cheating.
Since, according to the article, he also received $10K of comps from
his play, he must have been using a club card during the play.
Therefore, one could conclude that perhaps he didn't perceive that
taking advantage of this mistake, was wrong.
I find it difficult to accept this, but, not having any facts to the
contrary, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. I also hope
that he collects BIG TIME for the pain, fright and suffering that he
was forced to endure.
You may call me Grandma Goody-Two Shoes, if you wish. But, while I
wouldn't report this type of "mistake" to the casino (it isn't my
business to watch their back) I also would never play a machine that
was obviously mis-programmed to give the player such a huge and
un-intended advantage.
In NO way do I equate this with card counting, dice setting, the use
of basic strategy, or any advantage that can be obtained by the
player through the use of intelligence, practice and skill.
Just my opinion, of course.
~Babe~
···
========================================
nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
Another good article from the major Las Vegas newspaper, the
Review-Journal, full of information:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun
2003/news/21616613.html
jackessiebabe@> wrote:
Have you personally experienced this treatment? (Being hassled by
casinos for winnig) Or has someone of your acquaintance been
treated in this manner?
···
===============================================
nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
Yes. But why would you take my word for it? Since it's never happened
to you or anyone you know, it never happens, right? If you are not
aware that the casinos have declared war against "Advantage Players",
there is nothing I can say that will affect your belief. Just be
careful out there pollyanna, that's alls I'm saying.
First, if I wasn't prepared to believe your answer, I wouldn't have
asked the question. So please don't attribute ideas to me that do
not represent my thoughts.
Second, I will conclude that I (and perhaps most of the other
players that I know) play at lower levels than you do, and therefore
are considered much less of a threat to the casino's bottom line,
even when we win.
Third, I am always "careful out there", with apologies to the
Sergeant on "Hill Street Blues".
Fourth, I much prefer the appellation, Grandma Goody-Two-Shoes to
Pollyanna. {(O:
~Babe~
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
Are you aware that the casinos read these messages also?
Sure, are you concerned because specific casinos will find out they are
mistreating customers? But...please be aware that all telephone and
email communications are subject to monitoring by the Dept of Homeland
Security and the Dept of Justice. That scares me a lot more than the
casinos reading my posts.
Jonathan Ashton
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe"
<jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
While this certainly does not excuse the egregious treatment that he
received at the hands of Casino Security and other officials, this
man was taking advantage of an obvious casino mistake. With the
smallest of stretchs, this could be labeled a form of cheating.
In legal parlance, you're on what's called a slippery slope. Isn't any
advantage play a casino mistake? Yes it is. But cheating is to play in
a fraudulant manor, to defraud the casino. If the casino hands out a
dollar bill to everyone who comes through the door and you accept the
dollar, you are not cheating, though the casino may be making a
mistake with this promotion as lots of people will just leave by
another door without ever playing. On the other hand, if you grab a
dollar bill from the cage, you are cheating and committing fraud. If
your action is legal, then it is only possible that the casino has
made a mistake. If your action is illegal, then you are cheating.
Playing a machine the casino offers to the public is not cheating,
shining a light up it or hitting it with a stun gun to get it to dump
coins is cheating.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Jul-06-Sun-2003/news/21616613.html
"The Nevada Supreme Court agrees that advantage gambling is legal and
can include such techniques as card counting, shuffle tracking and
playing slot machines that are paying out more than their fair share.
Nevada's highest court, as well as courts in other gambling states,
have ruled advantage gambling is legal since players don't manipulate
any cards or machines. Rather, they do nothing more than use normal
intelligence much as a bridge player would use while watching other
players."
You may call me Grandma Goody-Two Shoes, if you wish. But, while I
wouldn't report this type of "mistake" to the casino (it isn't my
business to watch their back) I also would never play a machine that
was obviously mis-programmed to give the player such a huge and
un-intended advantage.
Would you play a machine that was clearly labeled "advantage play" or
had Bob Dancer's name on it? Would you admit to being an "advantage
player"? Would you play this progressive?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFj_1F6R52s
Yep, me too, same timeframes for $125 with 300 points.
···
--- hockeystl <vegasstl@charter.net> wrote:
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com,
"nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
> You're still getting cash offers from Silver
Legacy?After a hiatus of several months, some VP players at
SL are now getting
cash offers again from SL. I redeemed one valid in
Nov/Dec and will be
cashing another that was valid Jan/Feb.
In legal parlance, you're on what's called a slippery slope.
···
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana wrote:
I'm not an attorney, but I never realized that "slippery slope" was
part of the jurisprudence lexicon. {(O:
Isn't any advantage play a casino mistake? Yes it is.
==================================================
Well, if you're into answering your own questions, this will be a
short, boring discussion. If you're asking ME the question, my
answer is different than yours.
But cheating is to play in a fraudulant manor, to defraud the
casino.
I think that we can both agree on that premise.
If the casino hands out a dollar bill to everyone who comes
through the door and you accept the dollar, you are not cheating,
though the casino may be making a mistake with this promotion
IMO, this is a poor analogy to the actual situation. In the scenario
that you describe, the casino is willingly and knowingly
distributing dollar bills to their patrons. It may be an ill advised
promotion, but it is done with the full knowledge and consent of the
casino management. This is certainly not true of a $1 slot machine,
that is OBVIOUSLY, ERRONEOUSLY, programmed to pay off as if it was
$100 slot machine. There is no way that the casino authorized or
participated in that "promotion".
On the other hand, if you grab a dollar bill from the cage,
you are cheating and committing fraud.
I would define that as stealing.
2003/news/21616613.html "The Nevada Supreme Court agrees that
advantage gambling is legal and can include such techniques as card
counting, shuffle tracking and playing slot machines that are paying
out more than their fair share.............
Far be it from me to question anything that one reads in a newspaper!
{(O: However, I would certainly like to read that NV Supreme Court
decision in it's entirety.
I also agree that true "advantage gambling", i.e. card counting,
dice controlling, adhering to computer strategy, even reading
dealer "tells" in roulette, or playing your cards based on dealer
non-concealment of hole cards in BJ, resulting in player wins due to
his/her knowledge, skill and practice, is both fair and legal.
I have nothing but admirmation for, and no quarrel whatsoever with,
this type of AP. Where I (personally) draw the line for MY OWN
casino behavior, is, when I know that a casino employee made an
unintentional programming error, which the casino, if aware, would
never countenance. Even if this is not actually "cheating", I
believe that it is taking unfair "advantage", and is therefore
unethical. This is my personal belief. We all need to answer to our
own conscience.
Would you play a machine that was clearly
labeled "advantage play" or had Bob Dancer's name on it?
Would and have on many occasions. So??
Would you admit to being an "advantage player"?
=====================================================
Probably not. Mostly because it's nobody elses business. I am a
rather private person. Especially when I feel that I'm being asked
personal questions that are not the business of the interrogater.
Would you play this progressive?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFj_1F6R52s
Most definitely not. I rarely play progs. and never play any VP
(except 50/100 play) that is less than .25c.
If I did however, and the flashing overhead banner said that the RF
paid $800+, I would immediately known the $1,000,000 RF payoff on my
screen was a huge mistake. Give me a break!
~Babe~
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe"
<jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
Would you play this progressive?:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XFj_1F6R52sMost definitely not. I rarely play progs. and never play any VP
(except 50/100 play) that is less than .25c.If I did however, and the flashing overhead banner said that the RF
paid $800+, I would immediately known the $1,000,000 RF payoff on
my
screen was a huge mistake. Give me a break!
~Babe~
Thanks Babe for your well thought out and accurate retort to NOTI2K.
I'm sure that some casinos may mistreat some of their winners but I,
personally, don't consider this to be a major or, for that matter,
even a minor problem for me. I am a quiet gambler, I don't make a
fuss either when I win or lose at a casino and always treat the
casino personnel with a modicum of respect and dignity, just as I
appreciate being treated. This (VP) is what I do for fun and for
relaxation. If I was a beach person, I'm sure someone would try and
covince me that shark attacks are a major concern.
Jonathan
Thanks for your kind words, Jonathan.
I agree with your gambling philosophy. It very much mirrors my own.
Fortunately for us, we are "recreational" players, and have many
options available that are not feasible for the pros.
I believe, as you do, that being polite, soft-spoken and
generally "low maintenance", with all casino personnel, pays big
dividends.
I hope that most of us can continue to fly under the casino radar,
and receive nice offers in the future from Reno, as well as all
the other gambling venues.
Best of luck to you in and out of the casinos!
~Babe~
···
===================================================
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" wrote:
Thanks Babe for your well thought out and accurate retort to NOTI2K.
I'm sure that some casinos may mistreat some of their winners but I,
personally, don't consider this to be a major or, for that matter,
even a minor problem for me. I am a quiet gambler, I don't make a
fuss either when I win or lose at a casino and always treat the
casino personnel with a modicum of respect and dignity, just as I
appreciate being treated. This (VP) is what I do for fun and for
relaxation. If I was a beach person, I'm sure someone would try and
covince me that shark attacks are a major concern.
Jonathan
BTW, did you note that Steve Bernier, the Summerlin slot winner,
DELIBRATELY played (and subsequently won $17K) on a MALFUNCTIONING
$1 machine that had erroneously been programmed to pay out as though
it was a $100 slot.
no one has argued that the machine was malfunctioning. it was set to
pay out 100x the usual amounts, and it did.
(the 1M prog, imho, is entirely different - the evidence there seems
to suggest that it was set to be a normal $800-ish jackpot and some
kind of network glitch caused the 1M to be displayed.)
While this certainly does not excuse the egregious treatment that he
received at the hands of Casino Security and other officials, this
man was taking advantage of an obvious casino mistake. With the
smallest of stretchs, this could be labeled a form of cheating.
um. i take offense to that statement.
"taking advantage of obvious casino mistakes" is at the heart of
advantage play - very few casinos set out to lose money to their
customers. and i would not call advantage play "the smallest of
stretches" away from cheating.
gsr took away nsud when they raised cashback to 0.5% - except on one
machine, at one denomination, among a bank of otherwise identical
machines. obvious casino mistake. (now fixed.) was playing it
cheating?
a local casino recently had a multiway progressive bank where one
machine neither contributed to the progressive, nor caused it to
reset. you could play a normal machine until the progressive payouts
were high, then play the mistake machine and hit the elevated payouts
over and over, for an edge of several percent. was this cheating?
i had the good fortune to play a game/promo combination last year
which gave the player about a 40% edge. obvious casino mistake - they
did not intend the promo to work like that. was i cheating?
Since, according to the article, he also received $10K of comps from
his play, he must have been using a club card during the play.
Therefore, one could conclude that perhaps he didn't perceive that
taking advantage of this mistake, was wrong.
well, i don't think taking advantage of a 0.2%-edge mistake is
anywhere close to cheating. i don't think taking advantage of a
40%-edge mistake is anywhere close to cheating. it only follows that i
don't think taking advantage of an 8000%-edge mistake is anywhere
close to cheating.
(god knows the casino takes advantage of mistakes by me almost every
time i play video poker - and i play pretty well.)
i would have played that machine. i would not have left that machine.
when i was getting close to collapsing from exhaustion, i would call a
friend and have them continue to play that machine while i slept.
but then, i think winning money is fun. i'm weird like that.
(how did he win only $18k, anyway? if all the payouts were in units of
$100 instead of units of $1, you'd expect him to win an awful lot more
in the course of running up $10k in comp. i don't think we're getting
the full story.)
I find it difficult to accept this, but, not having any facts to the
contrary, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. I also hope
that he collects BIG TIME for the pain, fright and suffering that he
was forced to endure.
likewise.
In NO way do I equate this with card counting, dice setting, the use
of basic strategy, or any advantage that can be obtained by the
player through the use of intelligence, practice and skill.
this seems puritan to me. sometimes you earn money through hard work
and skill. sometimes a drunk monkey throws wads of cash at you.
exercising skill is nice, but if the monkey's drunk enough and rich
enough, who needs it? give me a big bag to shove the cash in and i'm
happy.
cheers,
five
···
jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hope I never get so jaded that I lose my soul.
···
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:
this seems puritan to me. sometimes you earn money through hard work
and skill. sometimes a drunk monkey throws wads of cash at you.
exercising skill is nice, but if the monkey's drunk enough and rich
enough, who needs it? give me a big bag to shove the cash in and i'm
happy.cheers,
five
jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
Good morning Mr. Spot!
I'm happy that another well respected AP has joined this lively
thread!
BTW, I always read all of your intelligent and helpful posts, and I
am absolutely sure that you are very knowledgeable and skilled VP
player.
All of the above also applies to NOTI, whose statistical analysis'
and many math contributions are of great value to members of the
forum.
IMO, where we differ in our beliefs can, for the most part, be
attributed to the fact that I play VP for fun and recreation, and
you, NOTI, as well as some of my other good friends, play VP as your
vocation.
Please see the rest of my comments below.
~Babe~
···
===============================================
Babe wrote: ......the Summerlin slot winner DELIBRATELY played (and
subsequently won $17K) on a MALFUNCTIONING $1 machine that had
erroneously been programmed to pay out as though it was a $100 slot..
fivespot <fivespot55@...> wrote:
no one has argued that the machine was malfunctioning. it
was set to pay out 100x the usual amounts, and it did.
We have no disagreement about this. My point was, that it was an
OBVIOUS mistake on the part of a slot mechanic, which gave any one
who played it, an enormous advantage over the casino. I questioned
whether it was ethical under those circumstances, to consider this
to be an example of "advantage" play. I determined that, FOR ME,
this was NOT something that I would personally play, but that each
person had to square it with their conscience.
(the 1M prog, imho, is entirely different - the evidence
there seems to suggest that it was set to be a normal $800-ish
jackpot and some kind of network glitch caused the 1M to be
displayed.)
We're in agreement again. Furthermore, no player with the least
modicum of knowledge regarding VP, could possibly believe that the
RF payout was actually $1,000,000. IMO, this is a player trying to
take unfair advantage of a casino by means of a frivolous lawsuit.
Babe wrote: this man was taking advantage of an obvious casino
mistake. With the smallest of stretchs, this could be labeled a
form of cheating.
um. i take offense to that statement. "taking advantage of
obvious casino mistakes" is at the heart of advantage play - very
few casinos set out to lose money to their customers. and i would
not call advantage play "the smallest of stretches" away from
cheating.
I'm sorry I offended you. I assure you that I meant no disrespect
to you or any other AP. Since you found my statement offensive, I
sincerely apologize. I do believe that I took pains to point out
that I do not consider advantage play to be cheating at all. I guess
this is a matter of semantics. IMO, this was not advantage play.
Obviously, you disagree with my premise, and you are certainly
entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
gsr took away nsud when they raised cashback to 0.5% -
except on one machine, at one denomination, among a bank of
otherwise identical machines. obvious casino mistake. (now fixed.)
was playing it cheating?
Not in my opinion. I would have played it also. This passes my
personal "smell test". As a matter of fact, I encountered a similiar
situation, at a different casino, a few months ago, and was happy to
play it great deal, even though it wound up whipping my butt.
a local casino recently had a multiway progressive bank
where one machine neither contributed to the progressive, nor caused
it to reset. you could play a normal machine until the progressive
payouts were high, then play the mistake machine and hit the
elevated payouts over and over, for an edge of several percent. was
this cheating?
A good question. I don't believe that this was actually "cheating",
but I wouldn't play it. I make these kinds of decisions based on
whether I would care if the casino was able to identify me as a
person who had played that machine, after they discovered the
error. If the answer is that I would mind if they knew, or if I
wouldn't play it with my player's card inserted, I would take a pass
on playing the machine.
i had the good fortune to play a game/promo combination
last year which gave the player about a 40% edge. obvious casino
mistake - they did not intend the promo to work like that. was i
cheating?
As I've mentioned previously, that's for you and your conscience to
decide, not for me to judge.
If it was a mistake in judgement made by the casino, and the
game/promo turned out be much more lucrative for the player than was
intended, that is certainly the essence of AP. I have absolutely no
problem with any player exploiting such an error in judgement. I
find a distinct difference in that scenario, from one where a
machine is incorrectly programmed to return 100 X the normal payout.
well, i don't think taking advantage of a 0.2%-edge mistake
is anywhere close to cheating. i don't think taking advantage of a
40%-edge mistake is anywhere close to cheating. it only follows
that i don't think taking advantage of an 8000%-edge mistake is
anywhere close to cheating.
As I've said, you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.
BTW, it is NOT the PERCENTAGE amount of the "advantage" with which
I find fault. It is how the advantage came to be.
god knows the casino takes advantage of mistakes by me almost
everytime i play video poker - and i play pretty well.)
I'm quite sure that you play expertly. But, I don't understand how
the casino is responsible (or taking advantage of your mistakes)
when you do err.
i would have played that machine. i would not have left
that machine. when i was getting close to collapsing from
exhaustion, i would call a friend and have them continue to play
that machine while i slept.
Please see my many statements about adhering to your conscience and
your own understanding of ethical behavior.
I also trust that, if the casino noticed you playing this obviously
malfunctioning and incorrectly programmed machine, and 86'd or
tresspassed you because of it, that you wouldn't think this was
unfair.
but then, i think winning money is fun. i'm weird like that
===========================================================
See? I knew we had more in common in that you might suspect. We
both love to play VP AND we both think winning is fun! {(O:
(how did he win only $18k, anyway? if all the payouts
were in units of $100 instead of units of $1, you'd expect him to
win an awful lot more in the course of running up $10k in comp. i
don't think we're getting the full story.)
I wondered about the same thing. Perhaps you're correct. But I
doubt that we'll ever hear "the rest of the story".
I wondered about a couple of other things in the article as well.
One of them was that he was labeled as a "gambler from New
Hampshire". Yet he was supposedly interviewed at "his home" by
members of the NEVADA Gaming Commission.
Babe wrote: ....... I also hope that he collects BIG TIME for the
pain, fright and suffering that he was forced to endure.
likewise.
================================================================
Yet another area of agreement!
Babe wrote: In NO way do I equate this with card counting, dice
setting, the use of basic strategy, or any advantage that can be
obtained by theplayer through the use of intelligence, practice and
skill.
this seems puritan to me. sometimes you earn money through
hard work and skill. sometimes a drunk monkey throws wads of cash at
you. exercising skill is nice, but if the monkey's drunk enough and
rich enough, who needs it? give me a big bag to shove the cash in
and i'm happy.
cheers,
five
Puritan? Me? Hardly! I do NOT tell others how to live their lives.
I explained how I felt, according to my code of ethics. I did not
tell you how YOU should feel, or how you should react to any
situation, in or out of a casino.
As for the "drunk monkey", I only want to win what I can earn
through hard work, practice and acquired knowledge. I do not want
the drunk monkey's (or the casino's) money, if I feel that I
received it in a manner that doesn't jibe with MY ethical standards.
Respectfully,
~Babe~
I have enjoyed this exchange between two people who I have come to respect thorugh
their thoughtful, respectful, and knowledgeable posts here.
I would like to split one ethical/ moral hair here.
FOR ME there is a difference between taking advantage of a machine erroneously set to pay
100X the appropriate paybacks, and taking advantage of a machine intentionally set to pay
back 100.3%. The former is a casino mistake, clearly - the casino did not intend, nor
consciously allow for, that to happen. In the latter case, the casino intends to allow the
possibilitiy of a player walking away with a little more money than the value her coin-in
The casino has no intention of losing money overall in setting a positive paytable. Their
job is to try to set paytables at a level to attract players, but overall make them a profit -
given the overall skill level of players, they will do so with a 100%+ paytable. They just
have to decide where the balance tips between more enticing/ better paytables and better
profits. The fact that some players will "take advantage" of the 100%+ payback is part of
the equation they weigh when making that decision. Advantage players in this case are
taking advantage of the up- front rules of the game, not an unintended, clearly harmful
(from the casino perspective) error - an error not in judgment, but in execution.
That said, I agree with both Ms Babe and Mr Fivespot: where each of us draws the line in
what kind and what level of "advantage" we feel right in taking is a matter of personal
judgment and personal values. I also think that Babe is right in that I'd probably draw that
line differently if I were relying on VP for my livelihood, rather than seeing VP as an
occasionally profitable, totally enjoyable way to spend my leisure time. I condemn
nobody for their choice in where to draw that line - whether it agrees with my decision or
not.
Bob in San Antonio
···
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
======================================================
Babe wrote: this man was taking advantage of an obvious casino
mistake. With the smallest of stretchs, this could be labeled a
form of cheating.
=======================================================
>>>>>>>>>>um. i take offense to that statement. "taking advantage of
obvious casino mistakes" is at the heart of advantage play - very
few casinos set out to lose money to their customers. and i would
not call advantage play "the smallest of stretches" away from
cheating.
=======================================================
I'm sorry I offended you. I assure you that I meant no disrespect
to you or any other AP. Since you found my statement offensive, I
sincerely apologize. I do believe that I took pains to point out
that I do not consider advantage play to be cheating at all. I guess
this is a matter of semantics. IMO, this was not advantage play.
Obviously, you disagree with my premise, and you are certainly
entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
I have enjoyed this exchange between two people who I have come to
respect thorugh their thoughtful, respectful, and knowledgeable
posts here.
···
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bobappic@...> wrote:
===================================================
Thanks Bob! I have also enjoyed participating in the exchange of
diverse ideas between fellow VP enthusiasts.
I very much appreciate the kind words which you expressed above.
......>>>>>>FOR ME there is a difference between taking advantage of
a machine erroneously set to pay 100X the appropriate paybacks, and
taking advantage of a machine intentionally set to pay back 100.3%.
The former is a casino mistake, clearly - the casino did not intend,
nor consciously allow for, that to happen. In the latter case, the
casino intends to allow the possibilitiy of a player walking away
with a little more money than the value her coin-in. The casino has
no intention of losing money overall in setting a positive
paytable. Their job is to try to set paytables at a level to
attract players, but overall make them a profit - given the overall
skill level of players, they will do so..............
An excellent point, Bob. Thank you for mentioning it. That is also
my take on so called "advantage play" as well. In the case of a game
with an EV of 100%+, a high percentage of players will be giving up
quite a bit of the EV by not studying the strategy, or playing while
tired, hungry, uncomfortable, distracted or inebriated. Therefore,
casino management can, with full knowledge, offer these "advantage"
games, cognizant that a very small minority of players will actually
come out ahead while playing them.
OTOH, a machine so erroneously programed in the player's favor that
it is impossible for the player to lose while playing it, is
obviously not what the casino would ever sanction, were they aware
of it.
..........>>>>>>>>That said, I agree with both Ms Babe and Mr
Fivespot: where each of us draws the line in what kind and what
level of "advantage" we feel right in taking is a matter of personal
judgment and personal values.................
Bob in San Antonio
We are in complete agreement, Bob. To each his own decision in
matters of ethics and morals. I will continue to behave in a way
that feels comfortable and right to me, and believe, fervently, that
every other citizen should have the same rights, w/o being subjected
to criticism or judgement.
~Babe~ (In snowy Illinois)
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe"
<jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
Fortunately for us, we are "recreational" players, and have many
options available that are not feasible for the pros.
The math is the same. What options do you see? It could be you mean
that "recreational" players have a higher tolerance for losing, but
there are actually plenty of "pros", that would be the "aggressive
pros", who have very high risk tolerance - generally they have their
big years, but they also bust out a lot and have to rebuild a bankroll
through other means. It could be you mean that "recreational" players
don't play any higher than quarters, but there are plenty of "quarter
pros", after all free room and board is free room and board (and food,
ciggies, booze ...). According to Dancer's "Million Dollar Video
Poker", he started out as a quarter-pro/coupon hustler.
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
The math is the same. What options do you see? It could be you mean
that "recreational" players have a higher tolerance for losing, but
there are actually plenty of "pros", that would be the "aggressive
pros", who have very high risk tolerance - generally they have their
big years, but they also bust out a lot and have to rebuild a bankroll
through other means. It could be you mean that "recreational" players
don't play any higher than quarters, but there are plenty of "quarter
pros", after all free room and board is free room and board (and food,
ciggies, booze ...). According to Dancer's "Million Dollar Video
Poker", he started out as a quarter-pro/coupon hustler.
I think you are missing the point of the point you were trying to make.
It's not about the math, you started this thread by saying that the
casinos abuse and cut off players that win. Babe was merely stating
that recreational players are more able to play and not be noticed, at
least that is how I'm reading this. If you punch the time clock at the
casino, you are more likely to be noticed and tracked.
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" <diversified_slave@...>
wrote:
It's not about the math, you started this thread by saying that the
casinos abuse and cut off players that win. Babe was merely stating
that recreational players are more able to play and not be noticed, at
least that is how I'm reading this. If you punch the time clock at the
casino, you are more likely to be noticed and tracked.
Are you saying pros don't know about cover plays? Or that pros gamble
too much whereas recreational players are more the comp hustling or
hit-and-run types? Seems to me that the pros are more able to play and
not be noticed, that's what makes them pros, among other things.
As a sidenote, another blog on casino abuse of customers:
--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000"
<nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
Are you saying pros don't know about cover plays? Or that pros gamble
too much whereas recreational players are more the comp hustling or
hit-and-run types? Seems to me that the pros are more able to play
and
not be noticed, that's what makes them pros, among other things.
As a sidenote, another blog on casino abuse of customers:
I don't really consider most pros (rob singer, bob dancer) to be
professional, just more experienced and better known by the casinos.
My win/loss rate is pretty good and I only play 4 weekends a year. As
I stated before when you pointed out to me the "revalation" that the
casinos read these posts when asked about specific casinos in the Reno
area that practice this "terrorism" that you speak. If you are
concerned that they may discover your real identity, use a fake name
like, Nightofthesalamander1999. That way your identity can be secure
and you can give us some information that is actually of value. Cause,
see, this still hasn't stopped me from getting really good comps from
the places I frequent in Reno. So I kinda think that you are making a
mountain out of a mole hill (sorry, couldn't think of any casino
analogies). So, keep your head down and be careful out there.
jackessiebabe@> wrote:
Fortunately for us, we are "recreational" players, and have
many options available that are not feasible for the pros......
···
============================================================
nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:
The math is the same. What options do you see? It could be
you mean that "recreational" players have a higher tolerance for
losing........
Uh.....No. Au contraire. I think that pros have a "higher tolerance
for losing". This is their business after all. The casino is their
office. As in all businesses, VP pros should be prepared to ride out
the storms of poor business conditions. O/W known as "bad luck" or,
to purists, the "bell curve ringing on the wrong side of
randomness." {(O:
It could be you mean that "recreational" players don't play
any higher than quarters..............
I'm afraid that is not an accurate statement either. I am a pro
player and play lots of higher denoms. and multi-play quarters.
I regret that my failure to explain my point of view adequately, has
caused you to become defensive in your rebuttals. That was not my
intent. So, once more, I will try to define what, IMO, are the
differences between VP pros and VP rec players.
A VP pro is, quite simply an advantage player (i.e. one who always
plays with some advantage, no matter how razor thin the edge may be)
who earns the majority of his/her livelihood, by playing VP, (or, in
a few instances, teaching or writing about VP.)
A recreational VP player is SOMETIMES an advantage player (IF they
have sufficient knowledge to achieve that status) who plays for the
pure entertainment value derived from this activity. Winning is
great, and much to be desired, but most rec players would/do play in
any event.
The available options, to which I was referring in my previous post,
which differed between pros and "recs", included, but is not limited
to, the following:
1. Recs can quit playing at anytime that they decide that they are
no longer enjoying themselves, regardless of the "juiciness" of the
play.
2. Recs can always confine their play to the lower denoms., at
which pros could not eek out a sufficient hourly wage.
3. Recs can tip extravagantly, if they are feeling generous, w/o
destroying their thin edge.
4. Recs can/will continue to patronize casinos in order to play,
even if denied FP & CB and other offers.
Obviously, I had no hidden meaning in my prior post(s), denigrating
pros in any way. I hope that I have now made that clear.
Paraphrasing another's famous line, "Some of my best friends are
Pros!" {(O:
Respectfully,
~Babe~
I must stop posting w/o adequate proof-reading, prior to hitting the
send button!
The sentence below should read: I am NOT a pro player etc.
Sorry!
~Babe~
···
========================================================
<jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
...........I am a pro player and play lots of higher denoms. and multi-
play quarters.................