vpFREE2 Forums

Bad Tidings from the Palms

#41

Maloof fell into the greed mode " had to build " another tower and then the economy collapsed. Yet I wonder if he would have been able to recoup even if the economy was better?

Larry F.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:

Though not perceptive of the fact that the casino where Maloof made his fortune was the Fiesta, now the Fiesta Rancho---not the Palms. Those familiar with the Palms when it opened will remember that he imported some of the same methods that had made the Fiesta successful--such as a strong locals appeal.

#42

If the economy was better yes-but it's not getting better. Even with the so called "deficit reduction deal" we will be at Greek levels (140%) of Debt-GDP in 5 or 6 years. Sooner in the increasingly unlikely event Nobama gets re-elected.
Then you have the issue of casinos popping up everwhere. If Cal. ever smartens up and allows full non Indian casinos LV and Reno's gooses will be further cooked.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lfcmja@..." <lfcmja@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@> wrote:
>> Though not perceptive of the fact that the casino where Maloof made his fortune was the Fiesta, now the Fiesta Rancho---not the Palms. Those familiar with the Palms when it opened will remember that he imported some of the same methods that had made the Fiesta successful--such as a strong locals appeal.

Maloof fell into the greed mode " had to build " another tower and then the economy collapsed. Yet I wonder if he would have been able to recoup even if the economy was better?

Larry F.

#43

This is not the type of email that should be in vpFREE

···

--- On Wed, 8/3/11, mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: More sad news from the Palms
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 6:26 PM

If the economy was better yes-but it's not getting better. Even with the so called "deficit reduction deal" we will be at Greek levels (140%) of Debt-GDP in 5 or 6 years. Sooner in the increasingly unlikely event Nobama gets re-elected.
Then you have the issue of casinos popping up everwhere. If Cal. ever smartens up and allows full non Indian casinos LV and Reno's gooses will be further cooked.

---

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#44

Totally agreed..so sick of the lies and BS..

Lisa

This is not the type of email that should be in vpFREE

···

--- On Wed, 8/3/11, mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com <mailto:melbedewy1226%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

From: mike <melbedewy1226@hotmail.com <mailto:melbedewy1226%40hotmail.com> >
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: More sad news from the Palms
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2011, 6:26 PM

If the economy was better yes-but it's not getting better. Even with the so
called "deficit reduction deal" we will be at Greek levels (140%) of
Debt-GDP in 5 or 6 years. Sooner in the increasingly unlikely event Nobama
gets re-elected.
Then you have the issue of casinos popping up everwhere. If Cal. ever
smartens up and allows full non Indian casinos LV and Reno's gooses will be
further cooked.

---

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#45

It's all very frightening. And don't forget inflation. I don't care what they say the inflation rate is, my pocket empties a lot faster than it used to.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

If the economy was better yes-but it's not getting better. Even with the so called "deficit reduction deal" we will be at Greek levels (140%) of Debt-GDP in 5 or 6 years. Sooner in the increasingly unlikely event Nobama gets re-elected.
Then you have the issue of casinos popping up everwhere. If Cal. ever smartens up and allows full non Indian casinos LV and Reno's gooses will be further cooked.

#46

"mike" wrote:

If the economy was better yes-but it's not getting better. Even with the so
called "deficit reduction deal" we will be at Greek levels (140%) of Debt-GDP
in 5 or 6 years. Sooner in the increasingly unlikely event Nobama gets
re-elected.

Please do not make political comments on this forum.

vpFREE Administrator

#47

Well, that's depressing. As someone who has never had the luxury of playing
positive EV anything, I'm starting to think that by the time I actually
finish planning my 2-week Vegas trip they will all be gone :frowning:

You guys are probably right that the loss of VP players looking for AP won't
affect their bottom line negatively, but maybe not. With all of the negative
news lately, my interest in a Vegas trip is quickly waning. I guarantee they
would have taken more money from me than I got back with all the
food/lodging costs. I wonder how many other players there are like myself.

Born 10-15 years late I guess.

-Brian

···

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:

**

I sorry to report that the progressive FPDW have been permanently removed.
Or at least that's what the casino manager told me. The new owners put their
foot down and insisted that there were to be no loss leaders.

The old staff fought as hard as they could to keep them, but to no avail.

~FK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#48

Before you do anything rash like quitting video poker, all I can advise you right now is to keep broadening your knowledge. If I recall, you posted here a month or so ago and I asked you what kind of software you used to practice with. If I am not confusing you with another poster, I believe you were "saving money" by using something free on the internet. I recommended that that was a corner you should not cut.

So, since then, have you bought any software like Dancer's VPW or another good one?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

Born 10-15 years late I guess.

#49

I explained to you what programs/websites I was using and asked if there was
something Dancer's VPW covered or improved upon that these did not but you
just replied saying "it's not a corner you should cut" which I assumed
translated to "I don't know." That led me to believe that the variety of
free programs I was using covered everything essential that Dancer's VPW
did. I did use it for the trial period and while it was certainly much nicer
looking than older programs like Frugal Video Poker (now free) and the
various java applet simulators, it didn't have anything I couldn't get
elsewhere for free except some varieties I have no interest in (super x pay,
100-play, etc.).

I don't see how video poker software is going to help change the paytables
available to me. I can already learn any game I want with freely available
info if needed, I'm just not as interested in a trip due to all the news of
good machines being taken out. It just seems like things are snowballing and
any good machines are going to have lines/vultures/people I don't want to
deal with which pretty much kills my interest in a Vegas trip.

I still play VP every now and then, 99.92 FP 2PJW at Barona in San Diego,
but the idea of paying all that money in gas/hotels/food to play at
marginally better machines no longer seems worth it. I realized early on (my
first post to vpfree) that VP was something to file under recreation, so the
main draw of a Vegas trip was to get more play for my money. It's now
questionable whether that's the case.due to worsening pay tables, and I fail
to understand how purchasing some pricey software changes that. In fact, it
seems to make things worse if anything (60 bucks off my ER).

-Brian

···

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

**

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:
>
>
> Born 10-15 years late I guess.
>

Before you do anything rash like quitting video poker, all I can advise you
right now is to keep broadening your knowledge. If I recall, you posted here
a month or so ago and I asked you what kind of software you used to practice
with. If I am not confusing you with another poster, I believe you were
"saving money" by using something free on the internet. I recommended that
that was a corner you should not cut.

So, since then, have you bought any software like Dancer's VPW or another
good one?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#50

Brian, there is nothing wrong with being a recreational player. Go for it, dude!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

<snip>
In fact, it
seems to make things worse if anything (60 bucks off my ER).

#51

Well, that's depressing. As someone who has never had the luxury of playing
positive EV anything, I'm starting to think that by the time I actually
finish planning my 2-week Vegas trip they will all be gone :frowning:

You guys are probably right that the loss of VP players looking for AP won't
affect their bottom line negatively, but maybe not. With all of the negative
news lately, my interest in a Vegas trip is quickly waning. I guarantee they
would have taken more money from me than I got back with all the
food/lodging costs. I wonder how many other players there are like myself.

Born 10-15 years late I guess.

-Brian

I just started a thread with a post very similar to yours. There are at least two of us!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:58 AM, Frank <frank@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I sorry to report that the progressive FPDW have been permanently removed.
> Or at least that's what the casino manager told me. The new owners put their
> foot down and insisted that there were to be no loss leaders.
>
> The old staff fought as hard as they could to keep them, but to no avail.
>
> ~FK
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#52

Funny... is that supposed to mean that unless I pay for overpriced vp
software I am by definition relegated to being a "recreational player?"
Again, the tools available for free are all I need. I can't imagine a pro
needing anything more either. I have a trainer for nearly every game, a risk
of ruin calculator, simulators, strat cards, and can create a custom game
and/or paytable of any kind to calculate return/strategy: all for free.

It also hasn't been long since my college stats and calculus courses so I
can do the math myself if need be. So, again: why would I need VPW? Each
time I ask you that you reply with something that's supposed to make me feel
uneasy about my choice w/o giving any actual reasons.

VP difficulty is mostly an illusion. Any engineer w/a college degree will
end up having to learn the math required to calculate return, strategy, RoR,
etc. It only takes a week or so of study and practice to master most games
if you understand the reasoning behind the strategy. I just don't buy
(literally and figuratively) statements from pros that you need this
book/software/class to be successful. Of course, I don't begrudge people
making money this way but it's not something *I *need.

If anything, people struggling should spend their money on a statistics
course at their local community college instead (though I'm sure you do
cover some basic stats in the courses). Then they will know why different
plays are better than others and won't have to base their play completely on
memorization.

Compared to card counting and all the extra people-skills you need for that,
VP is a cake walk. The only thing I would consider paying for is inside
knowledge about Vegas casinos and comps. That's one thing that you can't
learn in a vacuum, unlike VP (so long as the vacuum has internet access :)).

- Brian

···

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

**

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:
>
> <snip>

> In fact, it
> seems to make things worse if anything (60 bucks off my ER).
>

Brian, there is nothing wrong with being a recreational player. Go for it,
dude!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#53

The post of the month!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

Funny... is that supposed to mean that unless I pay for overpriced vp
software I am by definition relegated to being a "recreational player?"
Again, the tools available for free are all I need. I can't imagine a pro
needing anything more either. I have a trainer for nearly every game, a risk
of ruin calculator, simulators, strat cards, and can create a custom game
and/or paytable of any kind to calculate return/strategy: all for free.

It also hasn't been long since my college stats and calculus courses so I
can do the math myself if need be. So, again: why would I need VPW? Each
time I ask you that you reply with something that's supposed to make me feel
uneasy about my choice w/o giving any actual reasons.

VP difficulty is mostly an illusion. Any engineer w/a college degree will
end up having to learn the math required to calculate return, strategy, RoR,
etc. It only takes a week or so of study and practice to master most games
if you understand the reasoning behind the strategy. I just don't buy
(literally and figuratively) statements from pros that you need this
book/software/class to be successful. Of course, I don't begrudge people
making money this way but it's not something *I *need.

If anything, people struggling should spend their money on a statistics
course at their local community college instead (though I'm sure you do
cover some basic stats in the courses). Then they will know why different
plays are better than others and won't have to base their play completely on
memorization.

Compared to card counting and all the extra people-skills you need for that,
VP is a cake walk. The only thing I would consider paying for is inside
knowledge about Vegas casinos and comps. That's one thing that you can't
learn in a vacuum, unlike VP (so long as the vacuum has internet access :)).

- Brian

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
>
> > In fact, it
> > seems to make things worse if anything (60 bucks off my ER).
> >
>
> Brian, there is nothing wrong with being a recreational player. Go for it,
> dude!
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#54

No, I thought that's what you were saying. First I thought you were saying you wanted to get serious about VP, and then it seemed like you were saying that you only wanted to be a rec player. Either way, good luck to you. Sheesh!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

Funny... is that supposed to mean that unless I pay for overpriced vp
software I am by definition relegated to being a "recreational player?"

#55

I would just like to say I support a learn the math and do it yourself approach. Good on you mate.

~FK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote:

Funny... is that supposed to mean that unless I pay for overpriced vp
software I am by definition relegated to being a "recreational player?"
Again, the tools available for free are all I need. I can't imagine a pro
needing anything more either. I have a trainer for nearly every game, a risk
of ruin calculator, simulators, strat cards, and can create a custom game
and/or paytable of any kind to calculate return/strategy: all for free.

It also hasn't been long since my college stats and calculus courses so I
can do the math myself if need be. So, again: why would I need VPW? Each
time I ask you that you reply with something that's supposed to make me feel
uneasy about my choice w/o giving any actual reasons.

VP difficulty is mostly an illusion. Any engineer w/a college degree will
end up having to learn the math required to calculate return, strategy, RoR,
etc. It only takes a week or so of study and practice to master most games
if you understand the reasoning behind the strategy. I just don't buy
(literally and figuratively) statements from pros that you need this
book/software/class to be successful. Of course, I don't begrudge people
making money this way but it's not something *I *need.

If anything, people struggling should spend their money on a statistics
course at their local community college instead (though I'm sure you do
cover some basic stats in the courses). Then they will know why different
plays are better than others and won't have to base their play completely on
memorization.

Compared to card counting and all the extra people-skills you need for that,
VP is a cake walk. The only thing I would consider paying for is inside
knowledge about Vegas casinos and comps. That's one thing that you can't
learn in a vacuum, unlike VP (so long as the vacuum has internet access :)).

- Brian

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
>
> > In fact, it
> > seems to make things worse if anything (60 bucks off my ER).
> >
>
> Brian, there is nothing wrong with being a recreational player. Go for it,
> dude!
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#56

Very admirable. But unless he's Rain Man, he's not playing JW2 as well as he thinks he is. Not without practice software he ain't, no freaking way. lol

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

I would just like to say I support a learn the math and do it yourself approach. Good on you mate.

#57

To me there are 4 levels of VP play - each one has more demanding requirements.
recreational
advantage player
semi-pro
pro

To run your hobby like a business and for the advantage player and beyond , IMHO , you really need some software. I have all the major programs and it has cost me less than 1% of ( 1% ) of my VP budget. Certainly I spent a lot more on cocktail waitress tips, than on VP software. I've gotten the money back , by using that software to figure out corner case plays on games like multi-strike, ultimate X, super times pay, progressives. As an AP , VP is still fun - that's the main reason why I play. I go into a casino with a strategy booklet , that lets me play 99% of any game I find like an expert. I once walked into a casino where the best game was NSUD. The bank was empty but the 9/5 Double Double bonus was crowded. Why ? ... cause the Royal was $5000, and the 4A/234 was at 3000. A quick calculation on my laptop figured this one out, along with the top 5 set points to get that higher EV. You cant always go by crowds, many times the games look good with flashing lights, bells, and whistles but still ...not yet, a jump-in-worthy play.

best....Tom

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 2:47 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bad Tidings from the Palms

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:

I would just like to say I support a learn the math and do it yourself approach. Good on you mate.

Very admirable. But unless he's Rain Man, he's not playing JW2 as well as he thinks he is. Not without practice software he ain't, no freaking way. lol

#58

I'm thinking about my book collection of gambling books, especially poker books. It's pretty extensive. And every book is well used, beat up and dog-eared, coffee spills, etc. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars spent over the years on those books, but how much has the information earned me, I dunno, plenty I would say.

Back in the day, Doyle Brunson's book was $50, back when $50 was $50. I cannot imagine ever thinking, "Gee, maybe I'll save $50 by looking for it in the library, or going to my friend's house and reading it there for free". That just wouldn't happen. I had to have it. Any poker player, serious or rec player, had to have that book, or should have anyway.

And it's the same for good video poker software. Whether it be VPW or any other good one, 50 bucks ain't nothing! Y'gotta have it.

And besides, what else would I waste my money on? Jewelry for some pretty girl? I don't THINK so!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "tomflush" <tomflush@...> wrote:

To me there are 4 levels of VP play - each one has more demanding
requirements.
recreational
advantage player
semi-pro
pro

To run your hobby like a business and for the advantage player and beyond ,
IMHO , you really need some software. I have all the major programs and it
has cost me less than 1% of ( 1% ) of my VP budget. Certainly I spent a lot
more on cocktail waitress tips, than on VP software. I've gotten the money
back , by using that software to figure out corner case plays on games like
multi-strike, ultimate X, super times pay, progressives. As an AP , VP is
still fun - that's the main reason why I play. I go into a casino with a
strategy booklet , that lets me play 99% of any game I find like an
expert. I once walked into a casino where the best game was NSUD. The bank
was empty but the 9/5 Double Double bonus was crowded. Why ? ... cause the
Royal was $5000, and the 4A/234 was at 3000. A quick calculation on my
laptop figured this one out, along with the top 5 set points to get that
higher EV. You cant always go by crowds, many times the games look good with
flashing lights, bells, and whistles but still ...not yet, a jump-in-worthy
play.

best....Tom

#59

As explained, I already have practice software. It functions the same way as
VPW, though I'll admit, it IS less shiny. The math behind it is identical
though, I tested to make sure. That being said, no, you don't have to be
rain man to learn to play a game like JW2 perfectly w/o software. It's
really not that difficult if you understand the math behind the decisions
(which is not "rainman"-level math, it's generic college grad math).

I learned the game first w/o software and after testing myself (with your
cherished VPW no less) the mistakes brought my EV down <.02%, which is
insignificant to me and most other sane people. Since then, I've corrected
those mistakes.

Your post demonstrates precisely what I was getting at w/my last one though.
Learning exclusively through brute force trial and error might make it seem
intensely complicated, but underneath it all there is reason behind every
decision and once you understand that you demystify it and realize how very
simple VP math/strategy is.

···

On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Bob Bartop <bobbartop@yahoo.com> wrote:

**

Very admirable. But unless he's Rain Man, he's not playing JW2 as well as
he thinks he is. Not without practice software he ain't, no freaking way.
lol

__._,_.__

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#60

<snip>

(which is not "rainman"-level math, it's generic college grad math).

I learned the game first w/o software and after testing myself (with your
cherished VPW no less)

Uh huh, this does sound college level.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, nairb trah <nairbtrah1@...> wrote: