because very few better opportunities exist,
Not even close to true.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
Bad Tidings from the Palms
Told you all so. This ploppie knew it.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
I sorry to report that the progressive FPDW have been permanently removed. Or at least that's what the casino manager told me. The new owners put their foot down and insisted that there were to be no loss leaders.
The old staff fought as hard as they could to keep them, but to no avail.
~FK
Actually it is pretty close to the truth. Unless you want to follow the "Bob" method of blithely dropping 20 or 30 grand at BP hoping you'll make it back on a car promotion.
No thanks. I'm sticking to FPDW.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@> wrote:
>
because very few better opportunities exist,Not even close to true.
No, I'm clearly talking about playing for quarters. And since we discussed this about a month ago and it apparently did not register, I doubt if it would register this time either. Playing FPDW quarters for a percent or less is not the best use of one's time. Unless, of course, you like doing it, then in that case I am certainly not criticizing. And why would I? To each his own. Whatever one is comfortable with and there should be an element of fun to this. But money per time and energy spent, there are much better opportunities than grinding FPDW for quarters. One just has to be willing to think outside the box. If people would rather reminisce and whine about the old days, then there is that option too.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:
Actually it is pretty close to the truth. Unless you want to follow the "Bob" method of blithely dropping 20 or 30 grand at BP hoping you'll make it back on a car promotion.
No thanks. I'm sticking to FPDW.
Listen up folks. I'm more of a solutions kind of guy, rather than a let's define the problem over and over again. I can't help but think that if instead of posting all these comments on vpFREE, we all started writing letters to the Palms, we might be able to effect some change.
There's a lot of voices here, let's get them heard.
I'll get an address and a name where we should send advice/complaint letters and post it tomorrow. In the interim I recommend everyone write up something to send with a stress on the advice, rather than the complaints aspect.
I'd recommend something like:
please bring back X
Because: (then list reasons)
If the tone of your letters is complaint, it will likely fall on deaf ears. If it is advice it might get across the Styx to be heard. Don't worry, I've got the two bits to pay the ferryman.
~FK
From someone who usually just observes, this is a great piece of advise.
···
--- On Mon, 8/1/11, Frank <frank@progressivevp.com> wrote:
From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Bad Tidings from the Palms
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 1, 2011, 10:31 AM
Listen up folks. I'm more of a solutions kind of guy, rather than a let's define the problem over and over again. I can't help but think that if instead of posting all these comments on vpFREE, we all started writing letters to the Palms, we might be able to effect some change.
There's a lot of voices here, let's get them heard.
I'll get an address and a name where we should send advice/complaint letters and post it tomorrow. In the interim I recommend everyone write up something to send with a stress on the advice, rather than the complaints aspect.
I'd recommend something like:
please bring back X
Because: (then list reasons)
If the tone of your letters is complaint, it will likely fall on deaf ears. If it is advice it might get across the Styx to be heard. Don't worry, I've got the two bits to pay the ferryman.
~FK
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Frank, the Palms' new owners are directing the new management team to make changes that'll increase profit margin however possible. They've got a problem with debt, and this is how all casinos initially react because it's easy & tangible. It doesn't matter that the machines now take in less money overall because of less play. The only important parameter right now is a higher margin per machine. They then project profit off of those new numbers and a positive plan is in place.
I know those guys--they'd keep the machines in there if they could.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
Listen up folks. I'm more of a solutions kind of guy, rather than a let's define the problem over and over again. I can't help but think that if instead of posting all these comments on vpFREE, we all started writing letters to the Palms, we might be able to effect some change.
There's a lot of voices here, let's get them heard.
I'll get an address and a name where we should send advice/complaint letters and post it tomorrow. In the interim I recommend everyone write up something to send with a stress on the advice, rather than the complaints aspect.
I'd recommend something like:
please bring back X
Because: (then list reasons)If the tone of your letters is complaint, it will likely fall on deaf ears. If it is advice it might get across the Styx to be heard. Don't worry, I've got the two bits to pay the ferryman.
~FK
No, I'm clearly talking about playing for quarters. And since we discussed this about a month ago and it apparently did not register, I doubt if it would register this time either. Playing FPDW quarters for a percent or less is not the best use of one's time. Unless, of course, you like doing it, then in that case I am certainly not criticizing. And why would I? To each his own. Whatever one is comfortable with and there should be an element of fun to this. But money per time and energy spent, there are much better opportunities than grinding FPDW for quarters. One just has to be willing to think outside the box. If people would rather reminisce and whine about the old days, then there is that option too.
I always bust a gut whenever someone says something like this. I know of a play where not only is there an inherent 104% return on the game itself, but once every hour, a unicorn materializes next to you and gives you a $100 bill. Where is that, you ask? Well, I can't tell you--it would destroy the play.
There is NO SUCH THING ANY MORE (since the Palms disaster) as a .25 game where one can walk in, any time, any day, every day, and sit down and play at a 101% (or better) return. There are doubtless a number of hit-and-runs available that for short bursts of time, offer a large PERCENTAGE advantage, but in absolute terms, are not that significant. June's swipe promos at South Point and Coasts were a good case in point. If you played NSUD for the exact amount needed to qualify for the swipe/spin every day, you were playing at about 104%. This month, if you go to the M on Monday, manage to get the 3X points, and then play 9/6 JOB exactly long enough to get the buffet comp, then you'll be playing at well over 101% (depending on how much you value the buffet). You can hit the Hacienda during some promo periods and eke out 101.2% for a few hours. Et cetera.
If you do know of somewhere where the inherent return of a .25 game is 101% or better, please don't leave us all in the dark. (And by "inherent", I mean base return with perfect play + any earned freeplay/cashback at par, or comps at, say, 80% of par. I do NOT mean "mailers", as those vary wildly and thus are not a reliable portion of one's return.)
*And BTW I am well aware of the two Cortez Deuces machines, which are an exception to the above. (They still existed as of June, though they are not currently listed in the vpfree2 database.)
Yes, they do. Absolutely. Maloof understands this. The bright-eyed young Turks with MBAs and not a single functioning brain cell don't. Maloof built his fortune with a casino full of FPDW. At one time, there were over 120 .25 FPDW in his casino (the Fiesta Rancho). Yet, he made money--lots of it. Why?
1. Not everyone plays perfectly. And hardly anyone who doesn't makes any effort to improve, and certainly they keep playing regardless.
2. The skilled FPDW players have spouses, friends, etc., all of whom may have a craps or slot jones, making the visit of the COUPLE highly lucrative for the casino.
3. The skilled FPDW player may consume other services that the casino offers at a profit.
4. The skilled FPDW player may become fatigued, may get a headache, etc., and may make the two errors/hr sufficient to destroy his advantage.
I know that the argument is "with computer programs blah blah blah, players play more accurately nowadays, so the poor casino must protect itself from the ravages of the sharpies." This is horse pucky--sit at the FPDW prog carousel and observe any two players, and at least one of them is making frequent, chronic mistakes. Not to mention that even if all ten machines were being played PERFECTLY, the Palms would be losing about $100/hr, which is about what the $25 minimum craps table earns in, oh, a nanosecond. Only a gang of anal pencil-pushers would get exercised about the theoretical possibility of losing $100/hr on ONE bank of machine.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, gmblnmn <nktalbrch@...> wrote:
Yes, I think the herds of trendy, inebriated youngsters do have enough
money. You don't think they make money from the FPDW players, do you
really?
Frank, we are exactly the type of players that are complete anathema to CE. Don't forget that their grand business strategy is to boost the bottom line in the short term in order to justify their gargantuan debt. Their intent is evidently to juice the Palms' cash flow over the next few months in order to soothe their creditors. To that end, when some junior suit perks up and peeps, "We're losing money on that FPDW progressive bank!!!!!!!", his boss gives him a wet, sloppy kiss, and he preens and immediately issues instructions to have the bank (and, he wistfully wishes, the players) taken out back and destroyed with sledgehammers. We don't like this. The Palms doesn't WANT us to like it. They KNOW we don't. Therefore, since they took these actions with that full knowledge, how on earth could our complaints help?
I mean, look at the recent M progressives fiasco (I realize CE doesn't own the M). The M couldn't stomach the idea of a 101% game existing at all. Thus, they wasted their own time chasing their tail, putting the games in and then making them unplayable. They should, and probably do, know that with the gradual demise of decent VP all over town, any casino that bucked the trend and offers good games would have a HUGE competitive advantage. Here's the key: so they lose a few bucks an hour. So what? Business comes in the front door. Fred Fullpay plays for a couple of hours and realizes an EV of +$25, but then he blows that and more paying the vig on his $500 football bet. Fanny Fullpay plays for a half hour or so, but gets tired of Fred correcting her mistakes and wanders off to play Wheel! Of! Fortune! instead.
Why is it so difficult for Vegas casinos to understand that offering +EV games may actually boost the bottom line? Is that truly beyond their comprehension? And are they aware of the bad will that is engendered when they worsen their games because somebody might be making a theoretical $1.50/hr (.25 FPDB)?
I applaud your efforts to open up a dialogue between VPFree members and the Evil Empire, but I think those efforts are quixotic---it's like getting Israelis to start a letter-writing campaign to Hamas to try to get them to make nice for a change. (Apt parallel, as not only do they hate us, they refuse to acknowledge our right to exist.)
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
Listen up folks. I'm more of a solutions kind of guy, rather than a let's define the problem over and over again. I can't help but think that if instead of posting all these comments on vpFREE, we all started writing letters to the Palms, we might be able to effect some change.
~FK
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
-----------------------
One just has to be willing to think outside the box. If people would rather reminisce and whine about the old days, then there is that option too.
>
-----------------------
I always bust a gut whenever someone says something like this. I know of a play where not only is there an inherent 104% return on the game itself, but once every hour, a unicorn materializes next to you and gives you a $100 bill. Where is that, you ask? Well, I can't tell you--it would destroy the play.
There is NO SUCH THING ANY MORE (since the Palms disaster) as a .25 game where one can walk in, any time, any day, every day, and sit down and play at a 101% (or better) return. There are doubtless a number of hit-and-runs available that for short bursts of time, offer a large PERCENTAGE advantage, but in absolute terms, are not that significant. June's swipe promos at South Point and Coasts were a good case in point. If you played NSUD for the exact amount needed to qualify for the swipe/spin every day, you were playing at about 104%. This month, if you go to the M on Monday, manage to get the 3X points, and then play 9/6 JOB exactly long enough to get the buffet comp, then you'll be playing at well over 101% (depending on how much you value the buffet). You can hit the Hacienda during some promo periods and eke out 101.2% for a few hours. Et cetera.
If you do know of somewhere where the inherent return of a .25 game is 101% or better, please don't leave us all in the dark. (And by "inherent", I mean base return with perfect play + any earned freeplay/cashback at par, or comps at, say, 80% of par. I do NOT mean "mailers", as those vary wildly and thus are not a reliable portion of one's return.)
*And BTW I am well aware of the two Cortez Deuces machines, which are an exception to the above. (They still existed as of June, though they are not currently listed in the vpfree2 database.)
-----------------------
The Palms "disaster"? Lol @ that, the world is coming to an end. Thank you for your interesting reply, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to classify it in the Whine & Reminisce Category. Besides, if I tell you where they are it will destroy the play.
PS: The unicorn's name is Sparky, and he appreciates fresh carrots and sugar cubes.
The Palms is basically an inexpensive casino located on what was cheap land off the strip. The genius of Maloof was combining a local's casino with a "happening" resort for the young and trendy. Other than good VP tables, loose slots and good restaurants, the Palms is not ideal locals joint because of less than stellar casino furnishings and way too loud music.
I believe that Maloof realized that an active and crowded casino was part of the mix attracting the young, beautiful and hip. When the casino floor is less crowded and the young and hip decide the joint is becoming dead and passé, the bean-counters running the place will remain clueless as to why they contributed to the decline of the trendy crowd's business. While Maloof can tell them, "I told you so", the trendy business is hard to recapture once lost.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, gmblnmn <nktalbrch@> wrote:
>
> Yes, I think the herds of trendy, inebriated youngsters do have enough
> money. You don't think they make money from the FPDW players, do you
> really?
>Yes, they do. Absolutely. Maloof understands this. The bright-eyed young Turks with MBAs and not a single functioning brain cell don't. Maloof built his fortune with a casino full of FPDW. At one time, there were over 120 .25 FPDW in his casino (the Fiesta Rancho). Yet, he made money--lots of it...
Very well said! Perceptive post!
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "David" <d_richheimer@...> wrote:
I believe that Maloof realized that an active and crowded casino was part of the mix attracting the young, beautiful and hip. When the casino floor is less crowded and the young and hip decide the joint is becoming dead and passé, the bean-counters running the place will remain clueless as to why they contributed to the decline of the trendy crowd's business. While Maloof can tell them, "I told you so", the trendy business is hard to recapture once lost.
Love the spirit, but you may want to save your two bits...Unless you can get hard data that at least correlates having +EV games to improving a metric important to a casino's business this will not fly.
This is a philosophic change brought on by management that they see no reason to offer a machine where the player has an advantage.
In terms of having a critical mass of people around to maintain a trendy hotspot atmosphere is one of the reasons I read justifying +EV machines - are you kidding???
How many +EV machines are there and then how many of those playing them are there solely for that purpose and wouldn't be there otherwise - is that even a noticeable percentage of patrons? Are the people playing these machines "dressed to the nines", throwing money around to create buzz and excitement that would be a magnet for drawing a trendy crowd, or hot, scantily clad model-types?
I hope someone out there has quantitative data that shows a benefit for casinos that have +EV games. The problem is that I doubt it as the small number of +EV quarter level (or lower), single line games are likely insignificant in terms any delta in terms of revenue or quantity/quality of patrons. Perhaps if we were talking about high stakes games where the bankroll would be at a level that even most teams could not touch, but I doubt any data, positive or otherwise exists for making a case to management to resurrect these games.
Pat
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
Listen up folks. I'm more of a solutions kind of guy, rather than a let's define the problem over and over again. I can't help but think that if instead of posting all these comments on vpFREE, we all started writing letters to the Palms, we might be able to effect some change.
There's a lot of voices here, let's get them heard.
I'll get an address and a name where we should send advice/complaint letters and post it tomorrow. In the interim I recommend everyone write up something to send with a stress on the advice, rather than the complaints aspect.
I'd recommend something like:
please bring back X
Because: (then list reasons)If the tone of your letters is complaint, it will likely fall on deaf ears. If it is advice it might get across the Styx to be heard. Don't worry, I've got the two bits to pay the ferryman.
~FK
I know where thousands of over 101% quarter games are...in people's imaginations.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
>
I always bust a gut whenever someone says something like this. I know of a play where not only is there an inherent 104% return on the game itself, but once every hour, a unicorn materializes next to you and gives you a $100 bill. Where is that, you ask? Well, I can't tell you--it would destroy the play.There is NO SUCH THING ANY MORE (since the Palms disaster) as a .25 game where one can walk in, any time, any day, every day, and sit down and play at a 101% (or better) return. There are doubtless a number of hit-and-runs available that for short bursts of time, offer a large PERCENTAGE advantage, but in absolute terms, are not that significant. June's swipe promos at South Point and Coasts were a good case in point. If you played NSUD for the exact amount needed to qualify for the swipe/spin every day, you were playing at about 104%. This month, if you go to the M on Monday, manage to get the 3X points, and then play 9/6 JOB exactly long enough to get the buffet comp, then you'll be playing at well over 101% (depending on how much you value the buffet). You can hit the Hacienda during some promo periods and eke out 101.2% for a few hours. Et cetera.
If you do know of somewhere where the inherent return of a .25 game is 101% or better, please don't leave us all in the dark. (And by "inherent", I mean base return with perfect play + any earned freeplay/cashback at par, or comps at, say, 80% of par. I do NOT mean "mailers", as those vary wildly and thus are not a reliable portion of one's return.)
*And BTW I am well aware of the two Cortez Deuces machines, which are an exception to the above. (They still existed as of June, though they are not currently listed in the vpfree2 database.)
Uh, not exactly..
Ha-Ha.
Are the people playing these machines "dressed to the nines", throwing money around to create buzz and excitement that would be a magnet for drawing a trendy crowd, or hot, scantily clad model-types?
Though not perceptive of the fact that the casino where Maloof made his fortune was the Fiesta, now the Fiesta Rancho---not the Palms. Those familiar with the Palms when it opened will remember that he imported some of the same methods that had made the Fiesta successful--such as a strong locals appeal. Over time, the Palms has moved from Fiesta-style value to drunken moron/little gals in black dresses appeal (though it always had elements of both). What Maloof never forgot, though, is that those deuces-pounding locals, not the $15 drink crowd, are the people who initially filled his wallet.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "David" <d_richheimer@> wrote:
>
>
> I believe that Maloof realized that an active and crowded casino was part of the mix attracting the young, beautiful and hip. When the casino floor is less crowded and the young and hip decide the joint is becoming dead and passé, the bean-counters running the place will remain clueless as to why they contributed to the decline of the trendy crowd's business. While Maloof can tell them, "I told you so", the trendy business is hard to recapture once lost.
>Very well said! Perceptive post!
Those Duces Wild beat me out of 200 buck's on my last trip to Vegas. But I kept hoping. <g>
I see no reason to go to Palms now, with all the snooty "beautiful people." Id rather play downtown with ordinary folk's.
Ned C.
The Wild Joker
···
--- On Sun, 7/31/11, tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: tomflush <tomflush@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Bad Tidings from the Palms
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 31, 2011, 10:55 AM
Does anybody know if there was even more carnage ? so far...
$1 10/7 progs --> $1 9/7 progs
25c FPDW - GONE
ALL the good 25C games up front GONE including loose deuce, jokers, 10/6
DDB, 10/7 DB
I guess this means that the Gold Coast will be extra crowded now with AP
players .
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" <frank@...> wrote:
I sorry to report that the progressive FPDW have been permanently
removed. Or at least that's what the casino manager told me. The new
owners put their foot down and insisted that there were to be no loss
leaders.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I completely agree with derangedmutant's cogent reasons why the Palms should keep their 10 FPDW machines, particularly #3. I know from experience that there's nothing like a royal in the casino to get a group of three up to Alize for an $800+ dinner; a group that can't get comped because it plays the wrong machines; a group that takes two rooms when there are so many vacancies in Las Vegas; a group that spends $200+ a night at Little Buddha when there are no royals; a group that plays at negative EV after dinner and drinks; and a group that feels terrible about deciding to take their business elsewhere in the future.
DPTNST,
John
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
1. Not everyone plays perfectly. And hardly anyone who doesn't makes any effort to improve, and certainly they keep playing regardless.
2. The skilled FPDW players have spouses, friends, etc., all of whom may have a craps or slot jones, making the visit of the COUPLE highly lucrative for the casino.
3. The skilled FPDW player may consume other services that the casino offers at a profit.
4. The skilled FPDW player may become fatigued, may get a headache, etc., and may make the two errors/hr sufficient to destroy his advantage.
I completely agree with derangedmutant's cogent reasons why the Palms should keep their 10 FPDW machines, particularly #3. I know from experience that there's nothing like a royal in the casino to get a group of three up to Alize for an $800+ dinner; a group that can't get comped because it plays the wrong machines; a group that takes two rooms when there are so many vacancies in Las Vegas; a group that spends $200+ a night at Little Buddha when there are no royals; a group that plays at negative EV after dinner and drinks; and a group that feels terrible about deciding to take their business elsewhere in the future.
DPTNST,
John
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "derangedmutant040925" <derangedmutant040925@...> wrote:
1. Not everyone plays perfectly. And hardly anyone who doesn't makes any effort to improve, and certainly they keep playing regardless.
2. The skilled FPDW players have spouses, friends, etc., all of whom may have a craps or slot jones, making the visit of the COUPLE highly lucrative for the casino.
3. The skilled FPDW player may consume other services that the casino offers at a profit.
4. The skilled FPDW player may become fatigued, may get a headache, etc., and may make the two errors/hr sufficient to destroy his advantage.