vpFREE2 Forums

you have to wonder about how random machines are....

#1

Sometimes you just have to wonder. I've played at the Palms for 8 years,
often playing the 3/5 play NSU machines either playing NSU or DDB. Up until
recently, I primarily played 5 play, and NEVER got dealt deuces while
playing NSU - and I sometimes played a LOT for 4 hrs at a shot. Strangely
though, recently I've been playing on just the same "lucky" machine each time,
instead of randomly playing different ones in the several banks - playing 3
play instead (since I lost a lot of money last year, I have been cutting
down). About 3 weeks ago I hit dealt deuces just after coming out of the
Brenden movie. This week I played the same machine just before going into
see a Brenden movie - and bingo - dealt deuces again. Odd....

···

----------------

By the way a Vegas friend of mine has stage 4 cancer and undergoing chemo.
She is selling B5 pins to raise money, since she is barely making it
financially. If anyone is interested, or would just like to donate a dollar or
two to help, she has a website _http://jumpgatepins.com_
(http://jumpgatepins.com) - she is very courageous and worthy, so if you know any SF fans
of this show, please pass this info on.
---------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Guess you'll have to start going to the movies more often!! :slight_smile:

Don the Dentist

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

Sometimes you just have to wonder. I've played at the Palms for 8 years,
often playing the 3/5 play NSU machines either playing NSU or DDB. Up until
recently, I primarily played 5 play, and NEVER got dealt deuces while
playing NSU - and I sometimes played a LOT for 4 hrs at a shot. Strangely
though, recently I've been playing on just the same "lucky" machine each time,
instead of randomly playing different ones in the several banks - playing 3
play instead (since I lost a lot of money last year, I have been cutting
down). About 3 weeks ago I hit dealt deuces just after coming out of the
Brenden movie. This week I played the same machine just before going into
see a Brenden movie - and bingo - dealt deuces again. Odd....
----------------

#3

I would be a lot more comfortable if they released how many machines they inspect every day. I've never seen them do it-has anyone?
For those who say "it can't happen" I say-it DID happen-for 3 years right under the noses of the "best regulated gaming in the world".
Those interested can google the words LARRY VOLK AMERICAN COIN to see for themselves to what lengths people will cheat in Sin City.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

Sometimes you just have to wonder. I've played at the Palms for 8 years,
often playing the 3/5 play NSU machines either playing NSU or DDB. Up until
recently, I primarily played 5 play, and NEVER got dealt deuces while
playing NSU - and I sometimes played a LOT for 4 hrs at a shot. Strangely
though, recently I've been playing on just the same "lucky" machine each time,
instead of randomly playing different ones in the several banks - playing 3
play instead (since I lost a lot of money last year, I have been cutting
down). About 3 weeks ago I hit dealt deuces just after coming out of the
Brenden movie. This week I played the same machine just before going into
see a Brenden movie - and bingo - dealt deuces again. Odd....
----------------

By the way a Vegas friend of mine has stage 4 cancer and undergoing chemo.
She is selling B5 pins to raise money, since she is barely making it
financially. If anyone is interested, or would just like to donate a dollar or
two to help, she has a website _http://jumpgatepins.com_
(http://jumpgatepins.com) - she is very courageous and worthy, so if you know any SF fans
of this show, please pass this info on.
---------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

American Coin operated locations with a lower-level license than large casinos. They are not inspected as often as large casinos, primarily due to the number of locations. But remember: They got caught! And closed down. And thrown in jail.

But don't let me get in the way of your fun paranoia. Please continue to ignore the fact that MissCraps also noted that she's been getting a lot of wins lately. And be VERY careful to stay away from the Black Helicopters.

···

At 01:57 PM 2/5/2010, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:
>
> Sometimes you just have to wonder. I've played at the Palms for 8 years,
> often playing the 3/5 play NSU machines either playing NSU or DDB. Up until
> recently, I primarily played 5 play, and NEVER got dealt deuces while
> playing NSU - and I sometimes played a LOT for 4 hrs at a shot. Strangely
> though, recently I've been playing on just the same "lucky" machine each time,
> instead of randomly playing different ones in the several banks - playing 3
> play instead (since I lost a lot of money last year, I have been cutting
> down). About 3 weeks ago I hit dealt deuces just after coming out of the
> Brenden movie. This week I played the same machine just before going into
> see a Brenden movie - and bingo - dealt deuces again. Odd....
> ----------------
>

#5

Yeah they got caught....after 3+ years, millions of dollard and didn't spend 5 seconds in jail. Read the articles. My daddy always told me that if the question was "can someone cheat to make money" the answer is always "yes". I'm sure the people who lost millions on those gaffed machines under the nose of "the best gaming regulators in the world" were not amused.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

American Coin operated locations with a lower-level license than
large casinos. They are not inspected as often as large casinos,
primarily due to the number of locations. But remember: They got
caught! And closed down. And thrown in jail.

#6

Sometimes I worry, since there have been generally major scandals in nearly every industry one can think of, how Nevada, specifically Vegas hasn't been implicated in something really big that shakes the industry to its core with speculation over how honest the industry is. I mean something more recent than old time mobsters.

Something involving several of the large strip casinos all at once or something like that.

If they are really keeping the industry that clean, they should probably hire the lot to take care of national security.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@...> wrote:

I would be a lot more comfortable if they released how many machines they inspect every day. I've never seen them do it-has anyone?
For those who say "it can't happen" I say-it DID happen-for 3 years right under the noses of the "best regulated gaming in the world".
Those interested can google the words LARRY VOLK AMERICAN COIN to see for themselves to what lengths people will cheat in Sin City.

#7

I recently discussed the unusually bad results I had at a casino.

There are 3 assumptions I can make:

1) I was just unlucky that day.

2) The casino tampered with their machines so I could not win.

3) A combination of #1 and #2 above.

It's not productive to try to answer questions when the most important factors are never revealed to you. The VP machine won't give you a bell curve printout showing the position of your results along with everyone else (whose wins offset your loss). We can all truly never know for sure if we are getting a fair deal. Logically, if we always felt that we were not, then there would be no point in playing.

I would rather take my chances elsewhere after a strangely negative experience. I may not win. But, the odds are smaller that each time I will continue to always pick the unscrupulous casino and therefore generate odds-defying negative results. If I'm that unlucky, then it's time to call it quits anyway.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "theprostitutionstate" <theprostitutionstate@...> wrote:

Sometimes I worry, since there have been generally major scandals in nearly every industry one can think of, how Nevada, specifically Vegas hasn't been implicated in something really big that shakes the industry to its core with speculation over how honest the industry is. I mean something more recent than old time mobsters.

Something involving several of the large strip casinos all at once or something like that.

If they are really keeping the industry that clean, they should probably hire the lot to take care of national security.

#8

A couple of years ago a major place (venetian I think) got caught red handed fixing drawings. Did they "get their license yanked" by "the best gaming regulators in the world"?
Not for one second.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "theprostitutionstate" <theprostitutionstate@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mike" <melbedewy1226@> wrote:
>
> I would be a lot more comfortable if they released how many machines they inspect every day. I've never seen them do it-has anyone?
> For those who say "it can't happen" I say-it DID happen-for 3 years right under the noses of the "best regulated gaming in the world".
> Those interested can google the words LARRY VOLK AMERICAN COIN to see for themselves to what lengths people will cheat in Sin City.
>

Sometimes I worry, since there have been generally major scandals in nearly every industry one can think of, how Nevada, specifically Vegas hasn't been implicated in something really big that shakes the industry to its core with speculation over how honest the industry is. I mean something more recent than old time mobsters.

Something involving several of the large strip casinos all at once or something like that.

If they are really keeping the industry that clean, they should probably hire the lot to take care of national security.

#9

Mike,

In no way to I support Adelson or what they did. However, to be accurate they were not fixing all drawings. They fixed a few drawing to make a very big whale happy. It was absolutely wrong and they paid a stiff fine, $1,000,000.

A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence. Bernie Madoff hurt an awful lot of people and paid a high price. But he wasn't executed.

The regulators not only hit Adelson with a very large fine they chastised the state attorney general and the Gaming Commission for taking so long to investigate the problem. I'd say that if they are not the best regulators in the world they are damned close.

Bill

#10

A million dollar fine is in no way any kind of punishment for Adelson. He probably laughed it off. It was a BS penalty by a BS Commission. Im in no way paranoid about gaming but there are more things going on behind the scenes than most people know. The gaming industry is far from innocent and always fair.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Mike,

In no way to I support Adelson or what they did. However, to be
accurate they were not fixing all drawings. They fixed a few drawing
to make a very big whale happy. It was absolutely wrong and they paid
a stiff fine, $1,000,000.

A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence. Bernie
Madoff hurt an awful lot of people and paid a high price. But he
wasn't executed.

The regulators not only hit Adelson with a very large fine they
chastised the state attorney general and the Gaming Commission for
taking so long to investigate the problem. I'd say that if they are
not the best regulators in the world they are damned close.

Bill

#11

This is one of the most clear-headed reactions to lingering doubts I have read on vpFree. You can't sit on that same machine or bank of machines and play with the neutral attitude and worry-free focus you need on the proper holds if your subconcious is sweating mysterious forces like gaffed machines, financial worries or any other concerns you have from outside the "me & my machine" environment.

I like playing VP for the same reason I like to golf, watch movies and a dozen other pasttimes: you can set aside the complexities of life and focus in on something unaffected by external environments.
A piece of heaven.

~MARK

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mikeymic" wrote:

It's not productive to try to answer questions when the most important factors are never revealed to you. The VP machine won't give you a bell curve printout showing the position of your results along with everyone else (whose wins offset your loss). We can all truly never know for sure if we are getting a fair deal. Logically, if we always felt that we were not, then there would be no point in playing.

I would rather take my chances elsewhere after a strangely negative experience. I may not win. But, the odds are smaller that each time I will continue to always pick the unscrupulous casino and therefore generate odds-defying negative results. If I'm that unlucky, then it's time to call it quits anyway.

#12

I always say if you don't feel comfortable playing at a particular casino whether it be the atmosphere, you think the machines are gaffed or you just don't have any luck there you can always get up and go to another one of the many casinos. Every casino has streaks for me. I go two weeks and hit everything and then it dies for a while. I just go to one of my other favorite local places because it makes me feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if the math says otherwise.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark_my_words_again@...> wrote:

This is one of the most clear-headed reactions to lingering doubts I have read on vpFree. You can't sit on that same machine or bank of machines and play with the neutral attitude and worry-free focus you need on the proper holds if your subconcious is sweating mysterious forces like gaffed machines, financial worries or any other concerns you have from outside the "me & my machine" environment.

I like playing VP for the same reason I like to golf, watch movies and a dozen other pasttimes: you can set aside the complexities of life and focus in on something unaffected by external environments.
A piece of heaven.

~MARK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mikeymic" wrote:

> It's not productive to try to answer questions when the most important factors are never revealed to you. The VP machine won't give you a bell curve printout showing the position of your results along with everyone else (whose wins offset your loss). We can all truly never know for sure if we are getting a fair deal. Logically, if we always felt that we were not, then there would be no point in playing.
>
> I would rather take my chances elsewhere after a strangely negative experience. I may not win. But, the odds are smaller that each time I will continue to always pick the unscrupulous casino and therefore generate odds-defying negative results. If I'm that unlucky, then it's time to call it quits anyway.
>

#13

Not to worry, Stanley Ho with his friends in the Chinese government will take good care of Adelson, who has a lot of problems in Macau right now.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

Mike,

In no way to I support Adelson or what they did. However, to be
accurate they were not fixing all drawings. They fixed a few drawing
to make a very big whale happy. It was absolutely wrong and they paid
a stiff fine, $1,000,000.

A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence. Bernie
Madoff hurt an awful lot of people and paid a high price. But he
wasn't executed.

The regulators not only hit Adelson with a very large fine they
chastised the state attorney general and the Gaming Commission for
taking so long to investigate the problem. I'd say that if they are
not the best regulators in the world they are damned close.

#14

Sometimes I wonder about our rights as Video Poker players. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea, for the casino's to take a clue from the medical world , and preserve all records for 5 years on every patient, in this case every machine - with full public disclosure on demand.
Question to CCC - I think machine #546721 10/7 DB machine is fixed ! Please investigate
Answer from CCC - past year Coin in 1.1 million, Coin Out 1.2 million
                                  past 3 years Coin in 3.5 million, Coin Out 3.6 million
                                  past 5 years Coin in 6 million , Coin out 5.5 million
                                  Etc

This imaginary response is better than ( but it would be great for both responses ) ... Eh..... We checked the ROMS and the checksums all agree, they have not been tampered with - the machine and RNG is fair. You'd think a group like VP Free or Known GURU's would also act as an advocate for Players rights. I mean the networked tracking technology is there, but the law requirements are not.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sai" <gofaster87@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:08 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: you have to wonder about how random machines are....

I always say if you don't feel comfortable playing at a particular casino whether it be the atmosphere, you think the machines are gaffed or you just don't have any luck there you can always get up and go to another one of the many casinos. Every casino has streaks for me. I go two weeks and hit everything and then it dies for a while. I just go to one of my other favorite local places because it makes me feel comfortable and it doesn't matter if the math says otherwise.

#15

And to add to the story....the person responsible for the rigged drawings at the V did NOT even lose his license to stay in the NV gaming industry. Shortly after being fired by Sands he was hired by Station Casinos.

Don't you just love it how things work in the State of Nevada?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Sai" <gofaster87@...> wrote:

A million dollar fine is in no way any kind of punishment for Adelson. He probably laughed it off. It was a BS penalty by a BS Commission. Im in no way paranoid about gaming but there are more things going on behind the scenes than most people know. The gaming industry is far from innocent and always fair.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> In no way to I support Adelson or what they did. However, to be
> accurate they were not fixing all drawings. They fixed a few drawing
> to make a very big whale happy. It was absolutely wrong and they paid
> a stiff fine, $1,000,000.
>
> A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence. Bernie
> Madoff hurt an awful lot of people and paid a high price. But he
> wasn't executed.
>
> The regulators not only hit Adelson with a very large fine they
> chastised the state attorney general and the Gaming Commission for
> taking so long to investigate the problem. I'd say that if they are
> not the best regulators in the world they are damned close.
>
> Bill
>

#16

Madoff got his license revoked, and I assume he will never be granted a license ever again, in any of the 50 states of the US at least. At least we can only hope that's the case. And "A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence" is a logical fallacy. I'm sure any basic traffic cop can inform you of that. At least we can only hope that's the case.

Sadly, as far as Nevada casino regulation goes, casinos all pretty much know that no matter what they are caught doing, they will never get their gaming license revoked. That's what they call a "moral hazard".

http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=32

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

A license revocation is the equivalent of a death sentence. Bernie
Madoff hurt an awful lot of people and paid a high price. But he
wasn't executed.

#17

It is hard to say anything firm about the consequences of a short run of trials at a "random" experiment. Theoretical analysis yields statements valid in the long run, and has little to say about the short run. And any slot machine player in a casino is certainly playing in the short run compared to the house itself.

My understanding is that the house is not interested in whether a specific player wins or loses. The house is interested in the long term statistics, per unit floor footprint, per unit time, per unit of action. The aggregate statistical take for the house, over a year of action at a bank of slot machines, is fairly tight to the point of being predictable.

For this reason, I don't know that biasing the RNG in a slot machine is worth the chance of getting caught at it. Maybe I underestimate greed.

I wouldn't worry about a casino dorking around with machine payoffs, mainly because I have no way of knowing if they do that, and because I don't see that that is in their best interest.

But that is just my impression. It may be wrong, but I can only trust that it isn't.

Anecdotally, I can say the same that anyone else who frequents slot machines can say: My favorite game is FPDW. I have had two royals occur within a half hour, and I have had weeks and weeks without one. I have had several 4-deuces pile up several thousand credits on the machine, and have gone for long tedious stretches without a single one.

Neither the upsides or downsides are of any statistical significance. For in the short run, anything can happen, and does.

- - Norma Posy

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

Sometimes you just have to wonder. I've played at the Palms for 8 years,
often playing the 3/5 play NSU machines either playing NSU or DDB. Up until
recently, I primarily played 5 play, and NEVER got dealt deuces while
playing NSU - and I sometimes played a LOT for 4 hrs at a shot. Strangely
though, recently I've been playing on just the same "lucky" machine each time,
instead of randomly playing different ones in the several banks - playing 3
play instead (since I lost a lot of money last year, I have been cutting
down). About 3 weeks ago I hit dealt deuces just after coming out of the
Brenden movie. This week I played the same machine just before going into
see a Brenden movie - and bingo - dealt deuces again. Odd....
----------------

By the way a Vegas friend of mine has stage 4 cancer and undergoing chemo.
She is selling B5 pins to raise money, since she is barely making it
financially. If anyone is interested, or would just like to donate a dollar or
two to help, she has a website _http://jumpgatepins.com_
(http://jumpgatepins.com) - she is very courageous and worthy, so if you know any SF fans
of this show, please pass this info on.
---------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#18

For this reason, I don't know that biasing the RNG in a slot machine is worth the chance of getting caught at it. Maybe I underestimate greed.

I wouldn't worry about a casino dorking around with machine payoffs, mainly because I have no way of knowing if they do that, and because I don't see that that is in their best interest.

That all sounds good and I'm sure we all want to believe it BUT the facts are the casinos have been caught red-handed gaffing machines (see Larry Volk) and fixing drawings (see Venetian scandal). Also the much ballyhoed "they won't do it because they'll lose their license" is weak since neither the Venetian nor any of the casinos in the Larry Volk scandal lost their licenses for even a single second.

#19

There were no "casinos" in Larry Volk (American Coin), they were neighborhood bars. The bars did not own or control the machines and did not know about the cheating.

And again taking the license of Venetian would have amounted to a death sentence (the business would have closed) and the parallel to a driver's license isn't worth comment. Of the 4 executives fired, one ended up running Wildfire for stations, 2 at an Indian casino in Oklahoma and I don't know what happened to the fourth. Should they have been prevented from ever working again? Personally, I don't think so -- after all lawyers are only disbarred for the most severe violations, most carry a lesser penalty. Rigging a few drawings, while very wrong, isn't the worst thing they could have done and they did not directly profit from it. Others can disagree but I think their punishment served to discourage others from committing this tort in the future.

···

At 02:51 PM 2/10/2010, you wrote:

>
> For this reason, I don't know that biasing the RNG in a slot machine is worth the chance of getting caught at it. Maybe I underestimate greed.
>
> I wouldn't worry about a casino dorking around with machine payoffs, mainly because I have no way of knowing if they do that, and because I don't see that that is in their best interest.
>
That all sounds good and I'm sure we all want to believe it BUT the facts are the casinos have been caught red-handed gaffing machines (see Larry Volk) and fixing drawings (see Venetian scandal). Also the much ballyhoed "they won't do it because they'll lose their license" is weak since neither the Venetian nor any of the casinos in the Larry Volk scandal lost their licenses for even a single second.

------------------------------------

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#20

They were smaller casinos but still casinos. Dozens of them. They ran the scam for 3+ years. To say they didn't know is laughable-they were given a deal from American Coin that could not have been profitable if the machines were not gaffed.
The main point is that for over 3 years the "best gaming regulators in the world" allowed dozens of casinos to run thousands of gaffed machines. What explanation is possible other than:
1. For 3+ years the "best gaming regulators in the world" didn't test a single one of these thousands of gaffed machines.
or
2. The "best gaming regulators in the world" were either incompetent beyond belief or corrupt themseles. Anyone remember Ron Harris???

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

There were no "casinos" in Larry Volk (American Coin), they were
neighborhood bars. The bars did not own or control the machines and
did not know about the cheating.