vpFREE2 Forums

Yes, kiddies, people DO win consistently

In the midst of the fairly stupid current debate about whether or
not there actually exist living, breathing consistent winners at
video poker, one simple fact is overlooked: if the best video poker
game returned only 98%, there still would be SOME players who are
ahead overall when the dust settles. Hell, there are Keno and state
lottery players who are and will be ahead for their lifetimes. So
the debate is meaningless: of COURSE there are consistent winners.

The only remaining question is: are these people winning because of
skill and game selection, or are they just the beneficiaries of
stupid, blind luck? The answer is: yes, and yes. The wafer-thin
advantage conferred on an expert VP player doesn't preclude him from
getting crushed on a given day, week, month, or lifetime.

It can also be noted that the higher rate of return you play at, the
more "lucky" you are likely to be. Anyone familiar with basic
probability math has seen the bell curve with the vertical line
rising to meet it at the "theoretical" result, or expectation. The
expert player nudges the line in his direction. Thus, his long-term
results fall on the favorable side of the curve (i.e., profit) a
little more often than for the unskilled player. The important thing
to remember is that the DISTRIBUTION of results is the same for both
players. A $10,000 loss at quarters may be an 0.002% event for the
expert, a 0.007% event for the "amateur", but each player's bell
curve is equally broad. The "width" of the curve is a function of
the given game's volatility.

Given that the distribution of results remains the same for a player
who graduates to "advantage" play, it's important to remember that
such graduation only SLIGHTLY decreases the chance of a bloodbath,
and only SLIGHTLY increases the chance of a big payday. These small
advantages work for the casino because of billions of decisions in a
year, but for the recreational player/visitor, the numbers are
simply not large enough to reach the "theoretical" result, except by
coincidence. So, winning or losing remains primarily a matter of
luck.

BUT!!!!! Those people who use this (otherwise sound) reasoning as an
excuse to not learn all they can about VP, and to play the best
games as well as they can, are missing the point. Joe Tourist loses
$247 one weekend; he reads his VP books, comes back next month, has
THE EXACT SAME LUCK, and loses $188. Or he makes $199 instead of
$37. Or whatever. If you play 10/7 DB instead of 9/7 DB you will
have 5 more coins x the number of full houses you hit; this is the
difference, which may still result in a negative overall total; but
why wouldn't you play the 10/7?

For what it's worth, my personal logs for .25 FPDW show a net win of
$13/hr for 2001 based on 1000 hands/hr. This includes cashback and
comps valued at full redemption, as well as mailings. This figure is
very close to actual expectation given that I played at .25 or .3
comps most of the time.

The only remaining question is: are these people winning because of
skill and game selection, or are they just the beneficiaries of
stupid, blind luck? The answer is: yes, and yes. The wafer-thin
advantage conferred on an expert VP player doesn't preclude him from
getting crushed on a given day, week, month, or lifetime.

I think that you've restated facts that have appeared here numerous times
very well. Optimal play generally leads to better results because it keeps
you in the game longer, so that you will be there for whatever "lucky"
deviations occur.

It can also be noted that the higher rate of return you play at, the

more "lucky" you are likely to be. <<

Unfortunately, nothing you say subsequently supports that statement. If you
mean simply that the more you bet the more you will win, when you win, then
you're right. But the more you bet the more you will lose, when you lose, is
also a fact.

If you mean that comps are a direct function of coin-in, so a higher rate
of play translates to more goodies, then you're right again. But you seem
to be saying that those who play higher stakes see better deviations from
the norm, which is not true.

>The important thing > to remember is that the DISTRIBUTION of results is

the same for both > players. A $10,000 loss at quarters may be an 0.002%
event for the expert, a 0.007% event for the "amateur", but each player's
bell curve is equally broad. The "width" of the curve is a function of
the given game's volatility.

If you mean distribution of hands, then yes. Distribution of results,
though, undermines your argument.

Also, although I've used the bell curve reference many times myself, it's
not really accurate and is misleading to many. There is no true bell curve
in VP hand distribution, in the sense that there is no "other side of the
curve."

That said, I agree with you that all players should strive for perfect play
and that even the slightest advantage is worthwhile.

lb

Just for clarification, I misread the following:

It can also be noted that the higher rate of return you play at, the

more "lucky" you are likely to be. <<

...meaning that you get more play from positive games. I apologize for the
misunderstanding.

lb

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mkl54321 <mkl54321@y...>"
<mkl54321@y...> wrote:

In the midst of the fairly stupid current debate about whether or
not there actually exist living, breathing consistent winners at
video poker, one simple fact is overlooked: if the best video poker
game returned only 98%, there still would be SOME players who are
ahead overall when the dust settles. Hell, there are Keno and state
lottery players who are and will be ahead for their lifetimes. So
the debate is meaningless: of COURSE there are consistent winners.

I might add that the percentage of winners for the positive
expectation games would be higher. Another point to make is the
longer a positive game player plays the better their chance to reach
net winner status, while negative game players increase there chance
of being net losers the longer they play.

A well written post by mk154321.

A couple quick points about playing slightly negative games in Las
Vegas to score comps at the nicer joints. There are slightly positive
plays where you can score comps and stay in nice joints so there is
no need to play in negative situations. If you are used to living the
high life and eating gourmet meals you probably don't need to grind
away at VP to decrease the cost of your trip anyway.

I think some people are playing a different game, it's called the how
many comps can I score game, they are more focused on comps than they
are on their play results.

There is a middle ground between playing $1.00 JW at El Cortez and
$1.00 JB at the Bellagio. There are so many good plays at good places
that I have a hard time deciding where to spend my play time each
trip.

Of course these are just my opinions and to each his own, if you are
happy with the what, where and why of your play the more power to
you. If your what and where don't fit with your why you might want to
explore your options. -JFR

Was ecstatic to read the above right on target poignant statement, but
then, what happened? You decided to firmly assume a wobbly stance in the
debate that you just finished calling meaningless. On the other hand, it is
nice to know that the Kevin we have all come to know and love is still
launching those left hook verbal haymakers at whatever happens to be in
front of him :-).
                                                                   Nudge

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <mkl54321@yahoo.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:04 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Yes, kiddies, people DO win consistently

Hell, there are Keno and state
lottery players who are and will be ahead for their lifetimes. So
the debate is meaningless: