Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
following rules:
3:2 for BJ
Double 10/11
DAS
BJ on Split Aces
Hits soft 17
6 Card Charlie
Late Surrender
I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
Assuming it's one deck, I have the game at 99.75%. If I have
calculated correctly, the BJ on split aces is only worth about .01%. I
would like to know where this game is.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@...> wrote:
Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
following rules:3:2 for BJ
Double 10/11
DAS
BJ on Split Aces
Hits soft 17
6 Card Charlie
Late SurrenderI think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
I may be way off, but I calculate that the BJ on split aces adds
~0.14% to the game for a single-deck player.
You are dealt 2 aces 0.452% of the time -- (4/52)*(3/51)
Of this cases, you will get 2 BJs 9.796% of the time (yielding a full
extra bet) and 1 BJ 44.408% of the time (yielding a half extra bet).
When you are dealt 2 aces, the dealer has a 2.612% chance of having BJ.
% Inc = {(% Dealt 2 Aces)*[(% 2 BJ) + 0.5*(% 1 BJ)]} * (1-%Dealer BJ)
% Inc = {0.452% * [9.796% + 0.5*44.408%]} * (1-2.612%)
% Inc = 0.141%
Like I said, this could be way off base. If so, I'm sure someone will
come along and slap me into place!
Ken
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@...> wrote:
Assuming it's one deck, I have the game at 99.75%. If I have
calculated correctly, the BJ on split aces is only worth about .01%. I
would like to know where this game is.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> following rules:
>
> 3:2 for BJ
> Double 10/11
> DAS
> BJ on Split Aces
> Hits soft 17
> 6 Card Charlie
> Late Surrender
>
> I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
> Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
>
The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi. --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@...> wrote:
Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
following rules:3:2 for BJ
Double 10/11
DAS
BJ on Split Aces
Hits soft 17
6 Card Charlie
Late SurrenderI think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
Cheers
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@...> wrote:
The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi. > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> following rules:
>
> 3:2 for BJ
> Double 10/11
> DAS
> BJ on Split Aces
> Hits soft 17
> 6 Card Charlie
> Late Surrender
>
> I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
> Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
>
The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about
0.19%
plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi.
Do you happen to know where these BJ machines are located withing
the Treasure Bay and in what denominations are they available.
Thanks,
sjs
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@...> wrote:
Assuming it's one deck, I have the game at 99.75%. If I have
calculated correctly, the BJ on split aces is only worth about .01%. I
would like to know where this game is.
Atlantis, Reno.... 25 cents to $20 per hand, plus the "let it ride" option
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> following rules:
>
> 3:2 for BJ
> Double 10/11
> DAS
> BJ on Split Aces
> Hits soft 17
> 6 Card Charlie
> Late Surrender
>
> I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
> Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
>
I completely agree with your analysis and your conditional
probabilities on the one or two BJ's. My earlier estimate was off by
a decimal place and then some!
As far as the game goes, my sources give the following: Soft 17 =
-.20%; No double on 9 = -.14%; no soft double = -.14%; Double after
split = +.10%; 6-card bonus = +.10%; late surrender = +.02%; BJ on
split aces = +.14%. Total the plusses and minuses and subtract form
100% and I get the game at 99.88% using basic strategy. Changing
strategy based on the limited count could add to this.
I may be way off, but I calculate that the BJ on split aces adds
~0.14% to the game for a single-deck player.You are dealt 2 aces 0.452% of the time -- (4/52)*(3/51)
Of this cases, you will get 2 BJs 9.796% of the time (yielding a
full
extra bet) and 1 BJ 44.408% of the time (yielding a half extra bet).
When you are dealt 2 aces, the dealer has a 2.612% chance of having
BJ.
% Inc = {(% Dealt 2 Aces)*[(% 2 BJ) + 0.5*(% 1 BJ)]} * (1-%Dealer
BJ)
% Inc = {0.452% * [9.796% + 0.5*44.408%]} * (1-2.612%)
% Inc = 0.141%Like I said, this could be way off base. If so, I'm sure someone
will
come along and slap me into place!
Ken
>
> Assuming it's one deck, I have the game at 99.75%. If I have
> calculated correctly, the BJ on split aces is only worth
about .01%. I
> would like to know where this game is.
>
>
> >
> > Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> > following rules:
> >
> > 3:2 for BJ
> > Double 10/11
> > DAS
> > BJ on Split Aces
> > Hits soft 17
> > 6 Card Charlie
> > Late Surrender
> >
> > I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on
Split
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kkirschner" <ken.kirschner@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
> > Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
> >
>
You forgot 6-card charlie.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@...> wrote:
I completely agree with your analysis and your conditional
probabilities on the one or two BJ's. My earlier estimate was off by
a decimal place and then some!As far as the game goes, my sources give the following: Soft 17 =
-.20%; No double on 9 = -.14%; no soft double = -.14%; Double after
split = +.10%; 6-card bonus = +.10%; late surrender = +.02%; BJ on
split aces = +.14%. Total the plusses and minuses and subtract form
100% and I get the game at 99.88% using basic strategy. Changing
strategy based on the limited count could add to this.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kkirschner" <ken.kirschner@> wrote:
>
>
> I may be way off, but I calculate that the BJ on split aces adds
> ~0.14% to the game for a single-deck player.
>
> You are dealt 2 aces 0.452% of the time -- (4/52)*(3/51)
>
> Of this cases, you will get 2 BJs 9.796% of the time (yielding a
full
> extra bet) and 1 BJ 44.408% of the time (yielding a half extra bet).
>
> When you are dealt 2 aces, the dealer has a 2.612% chance of having
BJ.
>
> % Inc = {(% Dealt 2 Aces)*[(% 2 BJ) + 0.5*(% 1 BJ)]} * (1-%Dealer
BJ)
> % Inc = {0.452% * [9.796% + 0.5*44.408%]} * (1-2.612%)
> % Inc = 0.141%
>
> Like I said, this could be way off base. If so, I'm sure someone
will
> come along and slap me into place!
>
> Ken
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@> wrote:
> >
> > Assuming it's one deck, I have the game at 99.75%. If I have
> > calculated correctly, the BJ on split aces is only worth
about .01%. I
> > would like to know where this game is.
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> > > following rules:
> > >
> > > 3:2 for BJ
> > > Double 10/11
> > > DAS
> > > BJ on Split Aces
> > > Hits soft 17
> > > 6 Card Charlie
> > > Late Surrender
> > >
> > > I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on
Split
> > > Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
> > >
> >
>
He included the 6-card charlie -- that's what he referred to as the
6-card bonus. I don't have time to verify his numbers, but they are
right in line with where I had the game in my head.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@...> wrote:
You forgot 6-card charlie.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@> wrote:
>
> I completely agree with your analysis and your conditional
> probabilities on the one or two BJ's. My earlier estimate was off by
> a decimal place and then some!
>
> As far as the game goes, my sources give the following: Soft 17 =
> -.20%; No double on 9 = -.14%; no soft double = -.14%; Double after
> split = +.10%; 6-card bonus = +.10%; late surrender = +.02%; BJ on
> split aces = +.14%. Total the plusses and minuses and subtract form
> 100% and I get the game at 99.88% using basic strategy. Changing
> strategy based on the limited count could add to this.
>
>
>
After thinking about the split aces bj, I thought the analysis might
have a minor problem. There is conditional overlap between what the
dealer's up card is and whether the dealer ends in bj. So, I split
the problen in three cases: dealer up card is ace, "ten", or
neither. Calculating the probabilities for one or two bj's and no
dealer bj in all three cases and adding the results gave me a result
of +.13%, as opposed to +.14%.
He included the 6-card charlie -- that's what he referred to as the
6-card bonus. I don't have time to verify his numbers, but they are
right in line with where I had the game in my head.>
> You forgot 6-card charlie.
>
> >
> > I completely agree with your analysis and your conditional
> > probabilities on the one or two BJ's. My earlier estimate was
off by
> > a decimal place and then some!
> >
> > As far as the game goes, my sources give the following: Soft
17 =
> > -.20%; No double on 9 = -.14%; no soft double = -.14%; Double
after
> > split = +.10%; 6-card bonus = +.10%; late surrender = +.02%; BJ
on
> > split aces = +.14%. Total the plusses and minuses and subtract
form
> > 100% and I get the game at 99.88% using basic strategy.
Changing
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kkirschner" <ken.kirschner@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@> wrote:
> > strategy based on the limited count could add to this.
> >
> >
> >
They changed them about 2 months ago to pay only even money on BJ.
>
> The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about
0.19%
> plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
> strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
> wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
> and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
> at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi.
Do you happen to know where these BJ machines are located withing
the Treasure Bay and in what denominations are they available.
Thanks,
sjs
sjs5572z <sjs5572z@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Doug,
Are you sure you're not talking about the IGT Game King game with
earlysurrender against T only, dealer stands on 17?
(BJ Analyzer gave a value very close to your number.)
If not, do you know the payback for this variation? I believe it will also
allow ESR after splitting, but since you would never split tens without
counting this adds no value.
I think it also has the undocumented "dealer auto-stand" on six or seven
cards.
TC
On 5/9/07, dougreul <dougreul@yahoo.com> wrote:
The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi. > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "kiwiboy4921" > <waynes@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> following rules:
>
> 3:2 for BJ
> Double 10/11
> DAS
> BJ on Split Aces
> Hits soft 17
> 6 Card Charlie
> Late Surrender
>
> I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
> Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was at Treasure Bay a couple of months ago. I checked out a large
number of bartops and quite a few slanttops, all were even money on
naturals. Even if you could find the better 3-2 paytable, it's
probably a good play only for locals who can cash coupons.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Doug Reul <dougreul@...> wrote:
They changed them about 2 months ago to pay only even money on BJ.
___________________________________________________________________________
I've never seen an IGT BJ game with early surrender, even against a 10 only. The game I am talking about has exactly the rules given below
3/2 on BJ
Double on 10/11 including after splits
BJ at 3/2 on split aces
Hit soft 17
Late surrender
6 card automatic winner
dealer stands on 6 cards even if less than 17
I played out 100 million hands on a simulation using special hand composition plays for single deck (for example, stand on 654 versus 10, stand on 4444 versus 7,8,9,10,A, etc. there are manny, many of these) and came up with 100.03%. I think IGT still thinks it is less than 100% because you can still find it occasionally in Mississippi (or maybe they have not factored in the BJ on split aces).
Tabby Cat <tabbycat@wachafo.com> wrote: Doug,
Are you sure you're not talking about the IGT Game King game with
earlysurrender against T only, dealer stands on 17?
(BJ Analyzer gave a value very close to your number.)
If not, do you know the payback for this variation? I believe it will also
allow ESR after splitting, but since you would never split tens without
counting this adds no value.
I think it also has the undocumented "dealer auto-stand" on six or seven
cards.
TC
On 5/9/07, dougreul <dougreul@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
> plus you gain about 0.1% from hand composition variations to basic
> strategy for single deck. I have played this game for about 10 years
> wherever it is offered with good cash back but it is getting harder
> and harder to find. The last time I played it was about 5 months ago
> at the Treasure Bay Casino in Biloxi. > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>, "kiwiboy4921" > <waynes@...> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know the EV of the IGT blackjack game that has the
> > following rules:
> >
> > 3:2 for BJ
> > Double 10/11
> > DAS
> > BJ on Split Aces
> > Hits soft 17
> > 6 Card Charlie
> > Late Surrender
> >
> > I think the game is about 99.7% but can't factor in the BJ on Split
> > Aces. Anyone know how much that is worth?
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They must have changed all of the machines just before you were there. I put $80,000 through on BJ in one day at $10/hand in February and got $400/wk in March, $300/wk in April and $200/wk in May just from that one play, which amounted to over 4% cash back in free play. You just need a pin # to do it.
paladingamingllc <paladingamingllc@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Doug Reul <dougreul@...> wrote:
>
> They changed them about 2 months ago to pay only even money on BJ.
>
I was at Treasure Bay a couple of months ago. I checked out a large
number of bartops and quite a few slanttops, all were even money on
naturals. Even if you could find the better 3-2 paytable, it's
probably a good play only for locals who can cash coupons.
__________________________________________________________
---------------------------------
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have analyzed it with this idea and get the same result as I did
originally. Which, from a probability standpoint, makes sense --
performing the calculation ignoring the dealer's up card has to give
the same result as the calculation performed taking the dealer's up
card into consideration.
You don't have to know the dealer's up card to perform the probability
calculation. Ahead of time, we know nothing about the distribution of
the deck. So the probabilities of the split cards can be calculated
ahead of time without considering the dealer's up card.
I've done the calculation a few times now and I am very confident in
the 14.1% value.
Ken
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob M" <merg17@...> wrote:
After thinking about the split aces bj, I thought the analysis might
have a minor problem. There is conditional overlap between what the
dealer's up card is and whether the dealer ends in bj. So, I split
the problen in three cases: dealer up card is ace, "ten", or
neither. Calculating the probabilities for one or two bj's and no
dealer bj in all three cases and adding the results gave me a result
of +.13%, as opposed to +.14%.
Y'know, you really only help the casino by offering this information.
As it is, I know very few people who can actually play to the 100.03,
the real world number is closer to 99.8% among even pros. There are
many reasons for this, there's really no profit in discussing why this
is with either the gaming public, nor with the casino suits who
understand why not to offer these games.
If you want to know the reason for my crankiness, I have seen too
often my plays get killed by the gaming public who felt my 3%-5% play
was an appropriate topic of discussion with either the public on an
Internet forum, or, amazingly so, with casino management. You have a
$400/hr play at $10 bets, how long do you really think it's going to
take the casino to notice something's wrong?
As it is, the newer IGT machines have fixed the programming error in
the previous program which allowed the 3-2 naturals after split.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@...> wrote:
The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
_______________________________________________________________________
I only mentioned the EV here because this game is essentially extinct. However, the new chip that you mention with the split aces BJ eliminated has a new glitch worth much more. Don't worry, I'm not going to mention what this is on the internet as this game is becoming more widespread.
>
> The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about 0.19%
Y'know, you really only help the casino by offering this information.
As it is, I know very few people who can actually play to the 100.03,
the real world number is closer to 99.8% among even pros. There are
many reasons for this, there's really no profit in discussing why this
is with either the gaming public, nor with the casino suits who
understand why not to offer these games.
If you want to know the reason for my crankiness, I have seen too
often my plays get killed by the gaming public who felt my 3%-5% play
was an appropriate topic of discussion with either the public on an
Internet forum, or, amazingly so, with casino management. You have a
$400/hr play at $10 bets, how long do you really think it's going to
take the casino to notice something's wrong?
As it is, the newer IGT machines have fixed the programming error in
the previous program which allowed the 3-2 naturals after split.
paladingamingllc <paladingamingllc@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@...> wrote:
__________________________________________________________
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paladingamingllc"
<paladingamingllc@...> wrote:
>
> The EV of this game is 100.03%. The BJ on split aces adds about
0.19%
As it is, I know very few people who can actually play to the
100.03,
the real world number is closer to 99.8% among even pros.
The last time I played this game extensively I used my card to track
the action. I made 388,000 total bets (includes splits,double
downs.) I finished 2 units up. The cashback was the earn.
I put the game at 100.03% plus. I've won many a hand because the
dealer only takes six cards. Like standing on 16 and the dealer runs
out of cards at 15. I was once pushed while standing on 14. Or
standing on 17 or 18 and the dealer runs out of cards at 16 or 15.
Sometimes it works in the dealers favor but most of the time for the
player.
The wizard of odds doesn't agree with me here as he says it doesn't
add anything to the game. He also reports that playing compositional
instead of straight hand totals adds only 1 unit of ER for every 2800
decisions which is a paltry addon. But I play compositional anyway.
I have seen the theoretical screens on the 4 GameKings at Silver
Club/Sparks many times. They all said 99.5%. No need to go over to
the Silver Club to check it out. I torched the game out of there
last fall.
The 100 play SAB was torched too.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dougreul" <dougreul@> wrote: