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XVP: Tax filing with supporting documentation? (some tax advice from me)

Do not include your win/loss statements or W2Gs with your return (unless the
W2G shows tax being withheld - if it does, then include that one W2G to
support the withheld taxes). These will only confuse matters.

If you feel you need some sort of explanation, attach a short note. For
example, since I had a large amount of W2s (over $100,000) and much larger
losses (losses are deductible only up to amount of wins by the way on your
itemized list of deductions) -- I added a little note saying something like "My
gambling losses exceeded the $100,000 listed on line 25 of schedule A - but since
gambling losses can only be deducted up to the amount of gambling income,
only $100,000 was listed"

Such an explanation probably isn't even necessary, but since my wins and
losses were so high, I wanted to mention it. Personal preference here.

Some people may want to include a list of all their W2Gs (especially those
filing as professional gamblers). But this probably is not necessary for the
average casual gambler (even one with a lot of W2Gs).

The people going over the returns are not necessarily the brightest or most
educated on gambling, so if you show a bunch of win/loss statements, they
could decide that your "gambling income" is actually coin out rather than W2Gs
plus other actual winning amounts, so you could be hit up with a whopping
amount of coin in. Even during an audit, you don't want to bring in win/loss
statements unless absolutely necessary. Also they are notoriously inaccurate.

Everyone getting W2Gs should keep a Contemporary Gaming Diary showing
amounts of $ put in, $ taken out of a machine, machine numbers if possible, casino
name, time in and time out, and probably bonus cash/cashback/free play
(amounts actually received after playing the "free play" would be income). This is
what the IRS wants as support of your losses (and wins). You may also want
to note down the names of anyone who is playing with you (witnesses), keep
markers, and keep any other supporting documentation of your gambling.

Again - do not send this in with your tax return!

And if you ever are audited, always keep a copy of any returns, letters,
gaming diary, or other information you send to the IRS - they lose stuff!!

I've only been audited once so far (knock on wood), despite large amounts of
W2Gs and large losses (I've been a loser every year despite a lot of
so-called-positive VP play!) That was when I tried to use the "session" method of
reporting income versus losses (as outlined in Jean Scott & Marissa Chien's
first book 'Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler' - this may have been revised in
their latest book which has been revised - I haven't read it). I had a lot of
losses even during days when I won W2Gs. As a result, my "income" using
winning sessions was lower than the total of W2Gs.

Thus I received a letter audit, and tried in several letters to explain
"winning sessions" versus "losing sessions" using Rev. Procedure 77-29 and other
sources as justification. I found my replies were lost and/or ignored, and
the dunning letters continued. I contacted a IRS Taxpayer Advocate for
assistance, as well as made several phone calls to the IRS, and was repeatedly told
"you can't do that." And that you must report all W2Gs to get your total
"Gambling Income". (surprisingly they didn't seem concerned with money that
was won outside of W2Gs). The only way to fight this after 6 months of stress
was to go further along in the process by getting into the "Appeals" process.

There was no firm way to know if my Appeal would be found in my favor, if I
might end up in Tax Court, or where this would end or how long it would take.
I also found it difficult to find a tax professional knowledgeable in
gambling tax law willing to represent me. Since the penalties and interest for
underpaid tax were continuing to accrue, and the stress was slowly killing me,
I decided to submit an amended return and do it the "IRS way," even though
perhaps the appeals court would rule in my favor (eventually) that sessions
make sense.

I have submitted all further returns the IRS standard way, listing W2Gs
(plus other winning sessions if any) as Gambling Income.

Apparently as long as your Gambling Income is as great or greater than W2G
totals, you are probably not going to be audited on this aspect (assuming you
correctly put Gambling Losses on Sch. B that are no larger than Gambling
Income).

I personally know of only 1 person who was audited using "winning sessions"
who did prevail, after undergoing the appeals process (he was almost at the
point of reaching the Tax Court when he prevailed). Jean Scott has said that
many people have used the session method, but in my posts and questions, I
personally did not find anyone except this one guy who has done this
successfully in recent years. It may be that people dealing directly with the Las
Vegas tax office may find more knowledgeable people than in other IRS offices,
but even though I filed from Vegas, I ended up dealing with the Fresno office!

(In previous years there may have been fewer audits, but do to
computerization, the IRS is now able to check on exactly how many W2Gs you have and
apparently automatically does a crosscheck to see if your Gambling Income is at
least equal to the W2G total. Computer crosschecking by the IRS means that any
1099s, W2s, W2Gs, and so on are all tabulated and checked by the IRS to catch
errors).

The general advice I've seen on dealing with the IRS is to provide only the
information they ask of you, file as honestly as possible, and if you are
audited answer questions honestly but do not provide extra information not asked
of you.

In my opinion anyone who wants to try using the "session method" of
wins/losses when filing as an individual or who wants to file as a Professional
Gambler using Sch. C should contact a tax professional such as Marissa Chien from
the get-go with help preparing their return. Tax professionals are not
cheap, and help can cost $150 or more an hour, so be aware that if you need to go
the appeals route and hire a professional to help you, you might end up
spending more for their aid than the extra costs of "doing it the IRS way." Of
course, if the first audit or appeals case were found in your favor, then in
further years you might be able to avoid the problem by attaching copies of
your rulings.

Filing as a Professional Gambler sounds good on the face of it, but there
are a number of hurdles, such as proving that you really want to make a living
from it, that it isn't just a hobby, that you have a profit in 3 of 5 years,
that you play enough (IRS seems to want a 40-hour work week for a business
versus a hobby), that you have proper records, etc. Of course a number of
people do file this way and have succeeded, but some have not.

I hope that the above helps. April 15 approaches....and thank goodness I've
already sent in this year's return!

···

---------------------------------------
By the way, don't forget, if you paid State Tax to Louisiana (or other
states perhaps) on W2Gs, you can file as a non-resident and collect most of your
money back.
--------------------------------------

Also you should note, if you file Electronically, the best way is one of the
tax programs such as Turbo Tax or H&R Block's Tax Cut (or using a tax
professional), but you will need to fill out all the information on ALL your W2Gs,
and you can't add any extra notes or attachments. Electronic filing may or
may not lower the chance of being audited.
-------------------------------------

The U.S. tax system for gamblers is totally unfair, because putting Gambling
Income onto Line 21 of your 1040 pushes up your Adjusted Gross Income, even
if you are an overall loser (like me!!!). As a result, the amount of your
deductions and exemptions may be reduced (though thankfully Congress is phasing
out this disastrous dopiness). Higher Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) can also
have other bad consequences. For example, Medicare Cost is now based on AGI
rather than a flat amount. As a result, my husband will have to pay a lot
extra for his Medicare this year (and last) (and maybe next year).

And of course, you can't list Gambling Losses unless you Itemize Deductions
- so that means if your losses are big, you lose any advantages of a Standard
Deduction (because you will want to itemize at that point).

As a result, having Gambling Income may have an unexpected consequence of
increasing your TAXES .... even if you are actually a LOSER! You can talk
about positive VP all you want, but if your taxes get increased because you win
(or even if you don't) that should be added into your overall evaluation of EV
and profit!

Keeping a Gaming Diary and accurate records is also time-consuming and a
pain in the neck! As is the added complexity of doing the taxes. Not to
mention the extra work if you have to recover taxes taken away from you by
Louisiana or another state!

Many people also will find their AGI increases will result in increased
STATE TAXES! yuck! Fortunately I live in Nevada as my primary residence which
has no state tax!

Also the Gambling Tax laws for the IRS were set up many many years ago, when
$1200 (the level of slot win that triggers a W2G) was a LOT of money. With
inflation, that now hits a lot more gamblers. Also gambling is everywhere
now, and everyone is gambling, so more and more people are subject to having to
deal with W2Gs and Gambling Income. The people who wrote the tax laws never
envisioned the wide spread of gaming or the hyper inflation scenario. Nor
did they envision the many areas of gambling which are totally ignored by the
tax code, such as Free Play, CashBack, Comps, Tournaments, Bonus coupons,
Drawings of prizes based on amount you play, etc. etc! Gamblers just have to do
their best to try to figure out what is taxable and what isn't and what to
include in income or not. Some Tax Court cases (and most knowledgeable
people) seem to indicate comps are not taxable. But no one knows about Cashback,
which could be looked on as a sort of non-taxable "rebate" or just as
"winnings." Personally I assume any sort of cash I get needs to be recorded in my
Gambling Diary and included in my computations of Gambling Income/Loss. But
it is anyone's guess!
---------------------------------------------

So good luck to all of you in your time of woe (tax filing time that is!)

**************Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.
  (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you for such a very informative post.
  You provided me with the most comprehensive dialogue I have ever seen on the subject of gambling and taxes.
  
misscraps@aol.com wrote:
          
Do not include your win/loss statements or W2Gs with your return (unless the
W2G shows tax being withheld - if it does, then include that one W2G to
support the withheld taxes). These will only confuse matters ...

--------------------------------------

Also you should note, if you file Electronically, the best way is

one of the

tax programs such as Turbo Tax or H&R Block's Tax Cut (or using a

tax

professional), but you will need to fill out all the information on

ALL your W2Gs,

and you can't add any extra notes or attachments. Electronic

filing may or

may not lower the chance of being audited.
-------------------------------------

I just wanted to add something about Turbo Tax. It wouldn't let me e-
file because I had too many w-2gs. I don't know if this limit is set
by the irs or if it was just something specific to Turbo Tax, but it
said that you can't e-file if you have more than 30 w-2gs (might have
been 30 or more, don't remember the wording).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

Excellent well-written real-life experience.

Thanks,

ST

The U.S. tax system for gamblers is totally unfair, because

putting Gambling

Income onto Line 21 of your 1040 pushes up your Adjusted Gross

Income, even

if you are an overall loser (like me!!!). As a result, the amount

of your

deductions and exemptions may be reduced (though thankfully

Congress is phasing

out this disastrous dopiness).

The dreaded AMT Alternative Minimum Tax.

Higher Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) can also

have other bad consequences. For example, Medicare Cost is now

based on AGI

rather than a flat amount. As a result, my husband will have to

pay a lot

extra for his Medicare this year (and last) (and maybe next

year).

And of course, you can't list Gambling Losses unless you Itemize

Deductions

- so that means if your losses are big, you lose any advantages of

a Standard

Deduction (because you will want to itemize at that point).

As a result, having Gambling Income may have an unexpected

consequence of

increasing your TAXES .... even if you are actually a LOSER! You

can talk

about positive VP all you want, but if your taxes get increased

because you win

(or even if you don't) that should be added into your overall

evaluation of EV

···

and profit!

<<That was when I tried to use the "session" method of
reporting income versus losses (as outlined in Jean Scott & Marissa Chien's
first book 'Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler' - this may have been revised in
their latest book which has been revised - I haven't read it).>>

This is one of the things we discussed more fully in this latest edition, giving the pros and cons of each method. There is also an added chapter on live poker and the details of tax reporting on this.

By the way, the new edition of the tax book is now available as an e-book. http://www.shoplva.com/welcomeEbooks.cfm It is only $9.98 and you can download it immediately!!!

···

________________
Jean $�ott
http://queenofcomps.com/

New blog taking the place of
Frugal Fridays. Go to
http://lasvegasadvisor.com/
and click on "Frugal Vegas."

THIS IS NOT ADVICE!

What I have done over the years is to "break out" every W-2G "event"
as a session unto itself, since your machine usually "freezes" for
a "hand-pay" anyway.

I write down all numbers, ending the "old" session at the "event",
create the "W-2G" session, and then start a "new" session.

Yes, it is very "Rube Goldberg", but it clearly and uniquely
identifies every W-2G event in my log.

Knock on wood, but I have not been audited (yet).

..... bl

My tax accountant told me that it's an IRS thing. He uses some mac
daddy tax accountant software, not turbo tax.

An 30 is the number I remember him telling me.

···

On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 11:31 PM, pokegimp <wincerwj@yahoo.com> wrote:

I just wanted to add something about Turbo Tax. It wouldn't let me e-
file because I had too many w-2gs. I don't know if this limit is set
by the irs or if it was just something specific to Turbo Tax, but it
said that you can't e-file if you have more than 30 w-2gs (might have
been 30 or more, don't remember the wording).

<<THIS IS NOT ADVICE! What I have done over the years is to "break out" every W-2G "event"
as a session unto itself, since your machine usually "freezes" for
a "hand-pay" anyway.I write down all numbers, ending the "old" session at the "event",
create the "W-2G" session, and then start a "new" session. Yes, it is very "Rube Goldberg", but it clearly and uniquely
identifies every W-2G event in my log. Knock on wood, but I have not been audited (yet).>>

Usually you want to have as few sessions as possible (within logical
limits), especially winning ones, because of the AGI penalty of having gross
wins added to your other income, especially if you live in a state that does
not allow a deduction for gross losses. If you are playing at higher
denominations, you might be getting W-2G's very often, and your method would
not be suitable.

I am guessing you don't have very many W-2Gs and thus your method works for
you.

And to comment on another tax issue that has been discussed. The IRS is not
usually going to question your record-keeping if your gross winning session
total is MORE than your W-2G total. Where there might come in letter audits
and problems with the IRS is when your actual session win total is less than
your W-2G total, a situation that is more common.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
"Tax Help for Gamblers" now
in e-book form for $9.98.
Download immediately at
http://www.shoplva.com/welcomeEbooks.cfm

If you are playing at higher
denominations, you might be getting W-2G's very often, and your method would
not be suitable.

I agree!

I am guessing you don't have very many W-2Gs and thus your method works for
you.

Yes, usually less than 5 a year!

..... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

After reading Miss Craps very informative post about the IRS NOT generally allowing the
"session method" of wins/losses filing, I am confused. I am still relatively new to all this, so
forgive me if this is a stupid question, but...how DOES the IRS expect us to report this
information?

I have read Jean and Marissa's new edition of "Tax Help for Gamblers" and they discussed the
session method of reporting and explained the importance of having a log with sessions
being a reasonable amount of time, recording winning and losing sessions.

Am I missing something? What other system is there that would make the IRS happier? Do
they want the W2G's seen as a separate event or "session"? Let's say you were down $600
and then got a $4,000 Royal Flush. I would record it as a $3400 win in my log. Would others
record one losing session of $600 and one winning session of $4,000 on the same day? Is
that what the IRS wants?

Cathy B.

In recent years they seem to want the W-2G total on line 21 and sufficient
losses to bring you down to your net win (or zero) on Sch. A. If you put
less than the W-2G total on line 21 they are likely to send you a bill.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Cathy
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:37 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Tax filing with supporting documentation? (some
tax advice from me)

After reading Miss Craps very informative post about the IRS NOT generally
allowing the
"session method" of wins/losses filing, I am confused. I am still relatively
new to all this, so
forgive me if this is a stupid question, but...how DOES the IRS expect us to
report this
information?

I have read Jean and Marissa's new edition of "Tax Help for Gamblers" and
they discussed the
session method of reporting and explained the importance of having a log
with sessions
being a reasonable amount of time, recording winning and losing sessions.

Am I missing something? What other system is there that would make the IRS
happier? Do
they want the W2G's seen as a separate event or "session"? Let's say you
were down $600
and then got a $4,000 Royal Flush. I would record it as a $3400 win in my
log. Would others
record one losing session of $600 and one winning session of $4,000 on the
same day? Is
that what the IRS wants?

Cathy B.

------------------------------------

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Thanks for the reply, Cogno.

I had some very good "beginner's luck" last year and thanks to that and, of course, books
and tutorial software and strategy cards from Bob Dancer and Jean Scott, I had more wins
than losses and my winnings also exceeded my W2G's. I assume in a case like that, I
should report my actual winnings, as noted in my log, not just the W2G total, which is a
few thousand less. The win/loss statement from the casino I go to shows the wins/losses
by month, so my winnings are $5,000 less on that form. I would love to use THEIR figures
OR the W2G amount, as opposed to my gambling log, especially since my losses do not
exceed the standard deduction and I can't deduct them anyway. But I guess that would
not be "kosher". :frowning:

Cathy

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@...> wrote:

In recent years they seem to want the W-2G total on line 21 and sufficient
losses to bring you down to your net win (or zero) on Sch. A. If you put
less than the W-2G total on line 21 they are likely to send you a bill.

Cogno

<<After reading Miss Craps very informative post about the IRS NOT generally allowing the
"session method" of wins/losses filing>>

Actually the IRS usually DOES accept the "session method." Miss Craps was one of the few who had trouble.

Many people keep a diary using the session method in case of a future audit. But on their return they use their W-2G total amount (or more) as the "win" income and make a number as their "loss" on Schedule A as a deduction that will show the correct net win/loss. (Remember you can only deduct losses up to the amount of your wins.)

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
"Tax Help for Gamblers" now
in e-book form for $9.98.
Download immediately at
http://www.shoplva.com/welcomeEbooks.cfm

<<I had more wins
than losses and my winnings also exceeded my W2G's. I assume in a case like that, I
should report my actual winnings, as noted in my log, not just the W2G total, which is a
few thousand less. >>

That would be the lawful - and safest - way!!!

If you read the tax book, you know that casino win/loss statements are notoriously inaccurate and the IRS usually accepts them only as supplemental proof. They want a log.

···

________________
Jean $�ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
"Tax Help for Gamblers" now
in e-book form for $9.98.
Download immediately at
http://www.shoplva.com/welcomeEbooks.cfm

Were I an IRS auditor and you had dozens, or hundreds, of gambling
sessions for the year, but the only winning sessions you showed in your
log were the ones where you got a W2G, I would be highly suspicious.

Personally, I have lots of winning sessions where I didn't get a W2G.
And anyone who puts in lots of sessions per year will too. And I have
to believe the IRS is aware of this little tidbit.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <kitchat123@...> wrote:

I had more wins than losses and my winnings also exceeded my W2G's.
I assume in a case like that, I should report my actual winnings, as
noted in my log, not just the W2G total, which is a few thousand less.

Jean,

Everyone keeps saying the win/loss statements are "notoriously
inaccurate," but I have found the statements from my local casinos
highly accurate. One of my statements came with a daily record.
Another casino said they could provide a daily breakdown if I wanted
one. Perhaps someone can provide the names of the inaccurate
casinos. I have found Harrahs, Ameristar, and Isle of Capri highly
accurate. Am I the only person who receives an accurate win/loss
statement?

Chris

<<I had more wins
than losses and my winnings also exceeded my W2G's. I assume in a

case like

that, I
should report my actual winnings, as noted in my log, not just the

W2G

total, which is a
few thousand less. >>

That would be the lawful - and safest - way!!!

If you read the tax book, you know that casino win/loss statements

are

notoriously inaccurate and the IRS usually accepts them only as

supplemental

···

-- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:

proof. They want a log.
________________
Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
http://queenofcomps.com/
"Tax Help for Gamblers" now
in e-book form for $9.98.
Download immediately at
http://www.shoplva.com/welcomeEbooks.cfm

Mickey and Cathy,

Your gambling log can say whatever you want it to say which is why it
really has very little value. If your losses match your W-2 wins
like 99.9% of the tax returns, the IRS will probably look no
further. The IRS does check all your W-2s against its database of W-
2s. If your winnings are different from your W-2s you will probably
get a letter. I received a letter from the IRS because I forgot one
of my w-2s. They had a list of all my gambling W-2s.

Chris

>
> I had more wins than losses and my winnings also exceeded my

W2G's.

>I assume in a case like that, I should report my actual winnings,

as

>noted in my log, not just the W2G total, which is a few thousand

less.

>
>
Were I an IRS auditor and you had dozens, or hundreds, of gambling
sessions for the year, but the only winning sessions you showed in

your

log were the ones where you got a W2G, I would be highly

suspicious.

Personally, I have lots of winning sessions where I didn't get a

W2G.

And anyone who puts in lots of sessions per year will too. And I

have

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy" <kitchat123@> wrote:
to believe the IRS is aware of this little tidbit.

Thanks for your input, everyone.

I agree, Mickey, it would look quite suspicious for my winnings to equal the exact amount of
my W2Gs. And don't worry, I will take the legal and safe route, Jean. And Chris, as you say,
my log can say what I want it to say, so if nothing else, I will at least "amend" the log and
combine some sessions where I took a break for a few hours and recorded 2 sessions for the
day and combine them into one session. That will reduce my winnings in some cases, which
is important since my losses do not exceed the standard deduction so I will not be filing a
Schedule A.

This is what I get for being so darned lucky last year. I don't feel so lucky now!

Again, thank you everyone!

Cathy

1. What if you have some amount of uncarded play? (Yes - there are
logical reasons to do this, even on machines). This will
automatically make your win/loss statement inaccurate.

2. What if you put some amount of your play on someone else's card?
Now you have created inaccurate win/loss statements for two people at
the same time.

3. What if you play table games? Your win/loss statement will be
only as accurate as the guess by the pit critter who notes your buy-
in and color-up amounts.

4. What if you have unrated play at table games? See #1.

5. It is not all that uncommon for players to "lose" large blocks of
points to the uncharted depths of the slot club computer system. If
the points are lost, it seems logical that the associated win/loss
results for that block of play might also be lost.

EE

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

Jean,

Everyone keeps saying the win/loss statements are "notoriously
inaccurate," but I have found the statements from my local casinos
highly accurate.......................

But we must ponder why IRS finds gamblers' diaries "more reliable" than casino win/loss statements.

The gambler's diary has all of the same reliability problems as win/loss statements, and more.

The gambler's diary is kept by the gambler, someone with a vested interest in minimizing reported winnings, while the win/loss statement is kept by the casino, who is presumably more financially interested in conforming to IRS regulations and not losing their license.

If "uncarded play" is a problem, why isn't "undiaried play" a problem? Players have an incentive to card their play (comps/cashback). Players have an incentive not to self-document their winning sessions and to self-document their losing sessions (lower taxes).

Which is more likely to be accurate, the pit critter's "guess" or the player's "guess", given the desire of the player to minimize her taxes?

Is it not just as possible that a gambler's diary might "lose large chunks of play" in bookkeeping mistakes, since the casino uses a computer to track slot/VP action, and the player is forbidden to have a computer while playing?

The only advantage to the player's diary is that it's submitted under penalty of perjury, and the casino's win/loss statements aren't.

I don't see a diary as inherently reliable; in fact, I see more reasons for IRS to consider a win/loss statement at least as, if not more, reliable. But they still insist on the diary.

Dave

···

------------------------------
eecounter wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

Jean,

Everyone keeps saying the win/loss statements are "notoriously inaccurate," but I have found the statements from my local casinos highly accurate.......................
   
1. What if you have some amount of uncarded play? (Yes - there are logical reasons to do this, even on machines). This will automatically make your win/loss statement inaccurate.

2. What if you put some amount of your play on someone else's card? Now you have created inaccurate win/loss statements for two people at the same time.

3. What if you play table games? Your win/loss statement will be only as accurate as the guess by the pit critter who notes your buy-
in and color-up amounts.

4. What if you have unrated play at table games? See #1.

5. It is not all that uncommon for players to "lose" large blocks of points to the uncharted depths of the slot club computer system. If the points are lost, it seems logical that the associated win/loss results for that block of play might also be lost.

EE