vpFREE2 Forums

XVP - "Mind Play"

#1

I just received my "you're in the database so you can have a $99 room
sometime" mailer from the LV Flamingo. I like the name of the VP
event -- Video Polka Poker Tournament -- in November. Let me dust
off my accordion....

What worries me is the paragraph that follows: "Table players, be
instantly rated on our 21 Tables! With the new Mind Play rating
system, every bet is individually rated and instantly entered into
your Connection Card account."

Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have they
made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's probably
too soon to tell.

#2

<<Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have they
made it economical for the casinos, and does it work?>>

1. Yes, and there are at least 2 other systems on the market.

2. It is coming down in price - and even though it will always be expensive, remember the mega-mergers. Lots of big companies and big casinos will have the money for it.

3. And, sadly, it works VERY well. Many of Max's table-game techniques will no longer work.

I read two casino-executive publications monthly - and it is getting VERY scary what new technological advances are either already on the market or coming soon.

···

________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - Go to http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
  for VP software and strategy cards and for the
  Frugal series of books.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

I think we have discussed Mindplay here before but if
you are a blackjack player who does not count cards
the Flamingo will probably not cheat you with this
machine but you should be aware that they can.
Yes, it will record every cent you bet using the
special chips that come with the thing. Being
friendly with the pit will no longer get you an extra
cent, the comps will be fair.
The problem with this thing is that every card is
scanned and recorded. This information correlated
with changes in bet spreads will make counter catching
very easy. The biggest problem is that the machine
has the capability of an illegal cheating device for
the house, though they promise not to use it for that
purpose. Remember, you, the player go to jail if
caught with a computer keeping track of cards within a
casino in Nevada.
What Mindplay can do is since they know every card
played, it also knows every card left in the shoe. If
the shoe turns highly positive, the situation is not
only good for counters but gives every player at the
table an advantage (the difference being the counter
knows this and the other players do not). The house
then could signal the dealer to shuffle the shoe
before the cut card, basically insuring that the house
never plays a single hand without an advantage. This,
in my humble opinion is cheating! So far, I have
heard of no reports of this being done but if the
capability is there you can be sure that someone
somewhere will take advantage of it.

It is my hope that pit personel will realize that one
of the main purposes of Mindplay is to kill off many
of their jobs because the pit does no longer need to
rate players, watch for counters and for all I know
the machine can catch a capped bet, wrong payout and a
bunch of other stuff. Guess it can't empty your
ashtray or fetch a marker so there will still be a
need of perhaps 25% of the pit. Waiting for pit types
to destroy this thing.

Victoria

#4

Victoria,

I have to disagree. First, constantly shuffling before the marker
would probably bring in Gaming to investigate. This practice could be
construed as violating Gaming Regs.
Second, as you point out the system will likely catch cheaters.
Third, the system will prevent comp hustling. This practice is, in my
opinion, cheating by the players.
Fourth, the system will, indeed, spot counters. But many operators do
this anyway and often make mistakes. The system won't. While this
removes an advantage play I can't see that there is anything wrong
with that. All's fair....
Fifth, the majority of pit personnel are dealers. Pit bosses are
responsible for supervision and looking for suspicious activity as
well as player rating. I doubt that any jobs would be lost.
Lastly, there is a system available that does not use special chips
and has the same capabilities. Interesting, huh?

Bill

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Victoria Rosado <ros4144@y...> wrote:

I think we have discussed Mindplay here before but if
you are a blackjack player who does not count cards
the Flamingo will probably not cheat you with this
machine but you should be aware that they can.
Yes, it will record every cent you bet using the
special chips that come with the thing. Being
friendly with the pit will no longer get you an extra
cent, the comps will be fair.
The problem with this thing is that every card is
scanned and recorded. This information correlated
with changes in bet spreads will make counter catching
very easy. The biggest problem is that the machine
has the capability of an illegal cheating device for
the house, though they promise not to use it for that
purpose. Remember, you, the player go to jail if
caught with a computer keeping track of cards within a
casino in Nevada.
What Mindplay can do is since they know every card
played, it also knows every card left in the shoe. If
the shoe turns highly positive, the situation is not
only good for counters but gives every player at the
table an advantage (the difference being the counter
knows this and the other players do not). The house
then could signal the dealer to shuffle the shoe
before the cut card, basically insuring that the house
never plays a single hand without an advantage. This,
in my humble opinion is cheating! So far, I have
heard of no reports of this being done but if the
capability is there you can be sure that someone
somewhere will take advantage of it.

It is my hope that pit personel will realize that one
of the main purposes of Mindplay is to kill off many
of their jobs because the pit does no longer need to
rate players, watch for counters and for all I know
the machine can catch a capped bet, wrong payout and a
bunch of other stuff. Guess it can't empty your
ashtray or fetch a marker so there will still be a
need of perhaps 25% of the pit. Waiting for pit types
to destroy this thing.

Victoria

#5

Preferential shuffling has been in use in Atlantic
City since the 70's (Ken Usten)
I agree that in Nevada it could bring in gaming but my
point is that if the ability to cheat is there,
someone will at sometime do it, perhaps without the
casinos blessing.
There is only one pit boss and he will be needed. I
am talking about the "floormen or game supervisors"
who work under the pit boss. Floormen at the Hilton
were extremely worried about the future before the
property was sold and Mindplay removed.
Victoria

···

--- billc140 <vphobby@cox.net> wrote:

Victoria,

I have to disagree. First, constantly shuffling
before the marker
would probably bring in Gaming to investigate. This
practice could be
construed as violating Gaming Regs.
Second, as you point out the system will likely
catch cheaters.
Third, the system will prevent comp hustling. This
practice is, in my
opinion, cheating by the players.
Fourth, the system will, indeed, spot counters. But
many operators do
this anyway and often make mistakes. The system
won't. While this
removes an advantage play I can't see that there is
anything wrong
with that. All's fair....
Fifth, the majority of pit personnel are dealers.
Pit bosses are
responsible for supervision and looking for
suspicious activity as
well as player rating. I doubt that any jobs would
be lost.
Lastly, there is a system available that does not
use special chips
and has the same capabilities. Interesting, huh?

Bill

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Victoria Rosado
<ros4144@y...> wrote:
> I think we have discussed Mindplay here before but
if
> you are a blackjack player who does not count
cards
> the Flamingo will probably not cheat you with this
> machine but you should be aware that they can.
> Yes, it will record every cent you bet using the
> special chips that come with the thing. Being
> friendly with the pit will no longer get you an
extra
> cent, the comps will be fair.
> The problem with this thing is that every card is
> scanned and recorded. This information correlated
> with changes in bet spreads will make counter
catching
> very easy. The biggest problem is that the
machine
> has the capability of an illegal cheating device
for
> the house, though they promise not to use it for
that
> purpose. Remember, you, the player go to jail if
> caught with a computer keeping track of cards
within a
> casino in Nevada.
> What Mindplay can do is since they know every card
> played, it also knows every card left in the shoe.
If
> the shoe turns highly positive, the situation is
not
> only good for counters but gives every player at
the
> table an advantage (the difference being the
counter
> knows this and the other players do not). The
house
> then could signal the dealer to shuffle the shoe
> before the cut card, basically insuring that the
house
> never plays a single hand without an advantage.
This,
> in my humble opinion is cheating! So far, I have
> heard of no reports of this being done but if the
> capability is there you can be sure that someone
> somewhere will take advantage of it.
>
> It is my hope that pit personel will realize that
one
> of the main purposes of Mindplay is to kill off
many
> of their jobs because the pit does no longer need
to
> rate players, watch for counters and for all I
know
> the machine can catch a capped bet, wrong payout
and a
> bunch of other stuff. Guess it can't empty your
> ashtray or fetch a marker so there will still be a
> need of perhaps 25% of the pit. Waiting for pit
types
> to destroy this thing.
>
> Victoria

#6

Victoria Rosado wrote:

Floormen at the Hilton were extremely worried about the future
before the property was sold and Mindplay removed.

This system at LVH has been removed?

I had a host about 3 weeks ago suggest otherwise, but frankly I don't
put a lot of stock in what the hosts there offer up.

- Harry

#7

>
Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have they
made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's

probably

too soon to tell.

In aug 2002 i was talking to my casino host at the atlantis RENO
askin why my buddy gets better treatment than me, ( was teasing as my
buddy been going there since it was the clarion & bets large)
she responded "you seem to play only our best VP games,{naturally}&
you play them very well" laughing as she spoke,

I took it as a joke at the time, now i wonder.
i can see how they would know what i play, but how well??

M J Perry

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y...> wrote:

#8

How well would be your wins/losses.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: mklpryy24 [mailto:mklpry…@…com]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:00 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - "Mind Play"

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y...> wrote:

>
Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have they
made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's

probably

too soon to tell.

In aug 2002 i was talking to my casino host at the atlantis RENO
askin why my buddy gets better treatment than me, ( was teasing as my
buddy been going there since it was the clarion & bets large)
she responded "you seem to play only our best VP games,{naturally}&
you play them very well" laughing as she spoke,

I took it as a joke at the time, now i wonder.
i can see how they would know what i play, but how well??

M J Perry

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#9

How well would be your wins/losses.

Could be, but when i ask the ? i was down about $500.
nothin like a little paranoia to start the weekend :wink:
goin back to atlantis RENO this sun. mon tues.

From: mklpryy24 [mailto:mklpryy24@y…]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:00 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - "Mind Play"

> >
> Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have

they

> made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's
probably
> too soon to tell.

In aug 2002 i was talking to my casino host at the atlantis RENO
askin why my buddy gets better treatment than me, ( was teasing as

my

buddy been going there since it was the clarion & bets large)
she responded "you seem to play only our best VP games,{naturally}&
you play them very well" laughing as she spoke,

I took it as a joke at the time, now i wonder.
i can see how they would know what i play, but how well??

M J Perry

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

ADVERTISEMENT

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129rlloea/M=295196.4901138.6071305.300117
6/D=gr

oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1091289600/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:
/compa

nion.yahoo.com> click here

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M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=

:HM/A=2128215/rand=591170358>

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Service

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y...> wrote:
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

um, they have a new system, the name escapes me right now, but from
the player perspective it's not good

> How well would be your wins/losses.
>
Could be, but when i ask the ? i was down about $500.
nothin like a little paranoia to start the weekend :wink:
goin back to atlantis RENO this sun. mon tues.
>
>
> From: mklpryy24 [mailto:mklpryy24@y…]
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:00 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - "Mind Play"
>
>
>
> > >
> > Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have
they
> > made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's
> probably
> > too soon to tell.
>
> In aug 2002 i was talking to my casino host at the atlantis RENO
> askin why my buddy gets better treatment than me, ( was teasing

as

my
> buddy been going there since it was the clarion & bets large)
> she responded "you seem to play only our best VP games,{naturally}

&

> you play them very well" laughing as she spoke,
>
> I took it as a joke at the time, now i wonder.
> i can see how they would know what i play, but how well??
>
> M J Perry
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>

<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129rlloea/M=295196.4901138.6071305.300117

6/D=gr
>

oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1091289600/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U…> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y…> wrote:
/compa
> nion.yahoo.com> click here
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2128215/rand=591170358>
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#11

Sometimes the win/loss record can be very inaccurate. I played these slot
machines called hot reels at Harrahs in Laughlin for a few years. At one
point my host said something about how lucky I was. After my discussion with
him it seems "their" records had me consistently winning much more than I
actually was. I'm guessing it was a problem with those machines specifically
and not their entire system.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: nightoftheiguana2000 [mailto:nightoftheiguana2…@…com]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:46 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - "Mind Play"

um, they have a new system, the name escapes me right now, but from
the player perspective it's not good

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mklpryy24" <mklpryy24@y...> wrote:

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@U…> wrote:
> How well would be your wins/losses.
>
Could be, but when i ask the ? i was down about $500.
nothin like a little paranoia to start the weekend :wink:
goin back to atlantis RENO this sun. mon tues.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mklpryy24 [mailto:mklpryy24@y…]
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 9:00 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - "Mind Play"
>
>
>
> — In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y…> wrote:
> > >
> > Is this the tracking software Max Rubin warned us about? Have
they
> > made it economical for the casinos, and does it work? It's
> probably
> > too soon to tell.
>
> In aug 2002 i was talking to my casino host at the atlantis RENO
> askin why my buddy gets better treatment than me, ( was teasing

as

my
> buddy been going there since it was the clarion & bets large)
> she responded "you seem to play only our best VP games,{naturally}

&

> you play them very well" laughing as she spoke,
>
> I took it as a joke at the time, now i wonder.
> i can see how they would know what i play, but how well??
>
> M J Perry
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>

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>

oups/S=1705065732:HM/EXP=1091289600/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:

/compa
> nion.yahoo.com> click here
>
>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=
> :HM/A=2128215/rand=591170358>
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Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
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#12

LAS VEGAS, July 26 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Alliance Gaming Corp.
(NYSE: AGI - News) announced today that its Bally Gaming and Systems
business unit has signed a contract with Hong Kong-based Galaxy
Casino S.A. to provide its casino operations in Macau with 53
MindPlay Baccarat tables that offer proprietary security features
designed to thwart cheating.
     The new technology, scheduled to be installed in August and
September 2004, can electronically track every card dealt and
determine expected results. Unauthorized cards and other variances
can be immediately detected and reported to the surveillance
department through a networked client interface.
     Back in the U.S., MindPlay's MP 21 automated table tracking
system has gone live on 12 blackjack tables at the Flamingo Las
Vegas on the Strip. The Flamingo will serve as a beta-test site for
Caesars Entertainment properties for the next 60 to 90 days. The
system at the Flamingo features vision-based betting and card
recognition for completely automated player ratings.

1. "offer proprietary security features designed to thwart
cheating." Comp hustling, card counting or what exactly
is "cheating"?
2. "other variances can be immediately detected ". I guess variance
no longer will giveth and taketh away? :slight_smile:
3. "The Flamingo will serve as a beta-test site for Caesars
Entertainment properties". I.E. more to come.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Victoria Rosado <ros4144@y...> wrote:

I think we have discussed Mindplay here before but if
you are a blackjack player who does not count cards
the Flamingo will probably not cheat you with this
machine but you should be aware that they can.
Yes, it will record every cent you bet using the
special chips that come with the thing. Being
friendly with the pit will no longer get you an extra
cent, the comps will be fair.
The problem with this thing is that every card is
scanned and recorded. This information correlated
with changes in bet spreads will make counter catching
very easy. The biggest problem is that the machine
has the capability of an illegal cheating device for
the house, though they promise not to use it for that
purpose. Remember, you, the player go to jail if
caught with a computer keeping track of cards within a
casino in Nevada.
What Mindplay can do is since they know every card
played, it also knows every card left in the shoe. If
the shoe turns highly positive, the situation is not
only good for counters but gives every player at the
table an advantage (the difference being the counter
knows this and the other players do not). The house
then could signal the dealer to shuffle the shoe
before the cut card, basically insuring that the house
never plays a single hand without an advantage. This,
in my humble opinion is cheating! So far, I have
heard of no reports of this being done but if the
capability is there you can be sure that someone
somewhere will take advantage of it.

It is my hope that pit personel will realize that one
of the main purposes of Mindplay is to kill off many
of their jobs because the pit does no longer need to
rate players, watch for counters and for all I know
the machine can catch a capped bet, wrong payout and a
bunch of other stuff. Guess it can't empty your
ashtray or fetch a marker so there will still be a
need of perhaps 25% of the pit. Waiting for pit types
to destroy this thing.

Victoria

#13

The LV Hilton got rid of all theirs Thursday
morning two weeks ago. The pit critter I smoozed about
it said it was because they slowed the game down some
40%. I checked in Wednesday night for a birthday
promotion and mostly played their $1 pick 'em but
noticed that they had 2 or 3 bj tables without the
computers in a side pit. Early AM next morning the
pit was empty except for those few tables and by
around noon was up and running.

···

--- Jeffrey Schronce <cadreaming01@yahoo.com> wrote:

LAS VEGAS, July 26 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ --
Alliance Gaming Corp.
(NYSE: AGI - News) announced today that its Bally
Gaming and Systems
business unit has signed a contract with Hong
Kong-based Galaxy
Casino S.A. to provide its casino operations in
Macau with 53
MindPlay Baccarat tables that offer proprietary
security features
designed to thwart cheating.

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