vpFREE2 Forums

[XVP] French Humor

#1

It's like going to a football game without a piano, going for a drive
without your aquarium, going to the suncoast without your Deuces
Wild strategy card.

BTW, curious isn't it, that the germans, Russians and Chinese are,
next to France, the biggest stumbing blocks to taking down the
genocidal maniac that runs IRAQ? Could it be something they have in
common? Hitler, Stalin and Mao maybe? Genocides R Us? It's a good
thing we have them to provide us with moral guidance.
Sal

The idea that Germans, Russians, or Chineese people have a greater
propensity towards genocide is hopefully not what you are implying.

Our nation is not exactly pure in this respect. We forcibly
imported slave labor and virtually exterminated the Indians.

Perhaps we should refrain from judging nations by their past
deeds and past leadership. Their current views and activites are
what matters.

QZ

#2

Oh Geez, here we go again...

Nope, never got dealt a royal

lb

#3

The idea that Germans, Russians, or Chineese people have a greater
propensity towards genocide is hopefully not what you are implying.

Of course not. That wasn't what I said. I'm talking about nations and
their politics.

Our nation is not exactly pure in this respect. We forcibly
imported slave labor and virtually exterminated the Indians.

Nobody is pure, including the US, but the crimes these nations
committed stand apart in history. They intentionlly killed millions of
their own citizens and relatively quite recently. The Chinese
government is basically the same. The Russians and Germans now have
different government and attitudes and we helped with those
adjustments, by the way.

Perhaps we should refrain from judging nations by their past
deeds and past leadership. Their current views and activites are
what matters.

That's a very sweet sentiment, but history, especially recent history
matters too. Very much. I realize I seriously failed to make my point
well, so let me try again; since we have spent a great number of our
own citizens lives within the last 60 years either fighting the
dictatorial governments of these nations, or defending them in the
case of France, we don't need either their advice or their support,
when we are defending ourselves. Just what have they done for us
lately? Or ever?
Sal

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Quad Zilla" <quadzilla666@e...> wrote:

#4

May I suggest you study both history and human nature. Reading John Dean's book might give you insight into how any person or group can go down the wrong road. If you think we could not be Nazi Germany under the right circumstances you are deluding yourself.

And, by the way, generalizing about people based upon superficiality is the definition of bigotry. You might want to look at WWII as the French defending us, not the other way around. It is just as valid since without the bravery and heroism of large numbers of French citizens it would have been much harder for the British and Russians to defeat the Germans, with some help from other countries (like us).

The American lives lost in that war are insignificant as a percentage of our population when compared to the losses taken by the Europeans. Many more Frenchmen gave their lives to save us (and themselves) than we did.

···

That's a very sweet sentiment, but history, especially recent history
matters too. Very much. I realize I seriously failed to make my point
well, so let me try again; since we have spent a great number of our
own citizens lives within the last 60 years either fighting the
dictatorial governments of these nations, or defending them in the
case of France, we don't need either their advice or their support,
when we are defending ourselves. Just what have they done for us
lately? Or ever?
Sal

#5

If you think we could not be Nazi Germany under the right
circumstances you are deluding yourself.<<

Perhaps, but our strength is that we never were and are not now. What may
be doesn't change what was, except for those who are revisionists.

You might want to look at WWII as the French

defending us, not the other way around. It is just as valid since without
the bravery and heroism of large numbers of French citizens it would have
been much harder for the British and Russians to defeat the Germans, with
some help from other countries (like us).<<

What? They defended us? The British and Russians beat the Nazis with SOME
help from us? Are you trying to be controversial on purpose or do you
belittle the U.S. role because you're so totally misinformed?

The American lives lost in that war are insignificant as a percentage of
our population when compared to the losses taken by the Europeans. <<

That is only because the war was fought on foreign soil. WE gave the
British time to rebuild their military. WE gave the Russians time to rally
against the Germans. WE planned and led the Normandy invasion. WE held
back so that the Russians could enter Berlin. WE began the Marshall Plan to
save millions of lives after the war. To minimize the U.S. role in
liberating Europe is total revisionist history.

more Frenchmen gave their lives to save us (and themselves) than we did.

Total, complete, and utter nonsense, based on absolutely no historical fact.
Pure and simple anti-American propaganda. Shame on you and everyone who
believes that kind of poppycock.

lb

#6

What? They defended us? The British and Russians beat the Nazis with SOME
help from us?

   WE gave the

British time to rebuild their military. WE gave the Russians time to rally
against the Germans. WE planned and led the Normandy invasion.

Actually, the Russians did the heavy lifting here. Their role got severely downplayed in our history books, due mostly to the Cold War, and also because we were never real comfy with the notion of a beast like Stalin as a crucial ally. The Russians had 20 MILLION casualties in this war. And the issue was decided way before D-Day. D-Day was June 6, 1944. The battle of Stalingrad (roughly ONE MILLION total dead here alone, more than our total throughout the entire war) was the turning point on the eastern front, and occured in the winter of '42/'43. D-Day gets the reputation for deciding the war, but that's not the case. It was a completely screwed-up invasion that succeeded because of the heroism of many brave men, but, in hindsight, the greater issue was no longer in doubt. The Germans were going to lose the war, the only issues were how long would it take and how far the Russian armies would advance.

Also: the Russians were also fighting Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, and Finland. Even an Italian army got into the act.

I'm not trying to sell us short; I think our actions in WWII are among the most praiseworthy of ANY nation in history. And, the Russians and British and French pretty much made their own mess, and we wound up having to help clean it up. Our lend-lease program gave help to the Russians and British when they needed it most. We pretty much single-handedly (with a major, but oft-forgotten assist from China) defeated the Japaneese. The Marshall Plan was as generous as it was far-sighted.

I'm just trying to set the record straight. Until somebody makes a decent major motion picture on the subject, the Eastern Front is probably always going to be forgotten in the west. Which is sad, because the scale, drama, and raw courage displayed in this titanic stuggle is astounding.

john

#7

You present your case very well, and I note that as your post progresses you
do mention the import of U.S. involvement. I don't want to downplay the
immense sacrifice made by the Russians, but their heroism on the eastern
front does not diminish Allied efforts elsewhere, as you point out.
Remember, too, that the U.S. was fighting a devastating and costly war in
the Pacific at the same time.

I regret getting involved in this thread, as it is very much off topic, and
this will be my last post on the subject.

lb

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kelly" <jwkelly@flash.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: [XVP] French Humor

> What? They defended us? The British and Russians beat the Nazis with

SOME

> help from us?

   WE gave the
> British time to rebuild their military. WE gave the Russians time to

rally

> against the Germans. WE planned and led the Normandy invasion.
>

Actually, the Russians did the heavy lifting here. Their role got
severely downplayed in our history books, due mostly to the Cold War,
and also because we were never real comfy with the notion of a beast
like Stalin as a crucial ally. The Russians had 20 MILLION casualties in
this war. And the issue was decided way before D-Day. D-Day was June 6,
1944. The battle of Stalingrad (roughly ONE MILLION total dead here
alone, more than our total throughout the entire war) was the turning
point on the eastern front, and occured in the winter of '42/'43. D-Day
gets the reputation for deciding the war, but that's not the case. It
was a completely screwed-up invasion that succeeded because of the
heroism of many brave men, but, in hindsight, the greater issue was no
longer in doubt. The Germans were going to lose the war, the only issues
were how long would it take and how far the Russian armies would advance.

Also: the Russians were also fighting Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, and
Finland. Even an Italian army got into the act.

I'm not trying to sell us short; I think our actions in WWII are among
the most praiseworthy of ANY nation in history. And, the Russians and
British and French pretty much made their own mess, and we wound up
having to help clean it up. Our lend-lease program gave help to the
Russians and British when they needed it most. We pretty much
single-handedly (with a major, but oft-forgotten assist from China)
defeated the Japaneese. The Marshall Plan was as generous as it was
far-sighted.

I'm just trying to set the record straight. Until somebody makes a
decent major motion picture on the subject, the Eastern Front is
probably always going to be forgotten in the west. Which is sad, because
the scale, drama, and raw courage displayed in this titanic stuggle is
astounding.

john

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#8

ignore