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XVP: Diamond Thief

#1

I gotta be honest. I never thought that in 2012 I'd be asking this question.

I'm seeking some info on the slot machine Diamond Thief. I'm looking for the entry point, or some data I can use to calculate an entry point: the frequency of the DT logo landing on all of the nine spots, the distribution of the random bonus, etc.

Don't fret... this isn't a situation where anyone is going to get rich. Or build a bankroll, for that matter. I found one lone machine that doesn't get much action. It's at a place where I play other games, and I'd like to add it to my repertoire.

#2

Beware the black hole! Except on a Diamond Thief it's a blue hole. The Diamond Thief is a second generation machine from the IGT Vision Series. It's actually a copycat of Wild Cherry Bonus Pie which is also from the same IGT Vision series.

All Diamond Thiefs are not created equal as far as payback percentage is concerned. It could be anywhere from 88% to 97%. The average machine is in the low nineties percentagewise. That's what I'm going to write about.

You'll average about a 100 coin bonus in the long run.

Beware the blue hole! The valise has a blue background so it's the blue hole on the Diamond Thiefs. We called it the black hole on the Wild Cherry Bonus Pies.

The machine is designed, once you pop the last diamond in and collect the bonus and the basket, to come back with about three quarters of the valise filled with diamonds. Of the nine sections, at least one section will be completely empty. That's the blue hole! Avoid it! Since we know the machine was designed to come back on the next pattern with a blue hole in it, there can be no advantage at that point.

Sometimes you will find that all of the other 8 sections of six are full and there's just that one section that needs all six diamonds popped in. Avoid it! Well, I'd probably play it if there were 50 or 60 coins in the basket. But in general, you don't play blue holes.

Ideally, you would like to find the Thief with only one diamond to go. But those are rare plays. Any 2 or 3 to go is also a play no matter if they are all in the same section or not. 2 needed in one section and 2 needed in another section is also a play. 3 needed in one section and 1 or 2 in another section is also a play.

Only one section left needing 4 diamonds popped in--This is marginal unless there are 20 or so coins in the basket. 3 needed in one section and 3 needed in another is also marginal, look for coins in the basket. 4 needed in one section and 3 or less needed in another is playable if there are enough coins in the basket.

You're gonna have to get a feel for the payback of the machine. Another question is: How old is that machine. On the IGT Visions that were made before 2000, you can look past the third reel and see the coin in-coin out meters. The top meter is coin in and the second meter is the coin out meter. If the meters are there then write the numbers down. Give it about 20,000 coin in and you'll be able to tell where that machine is payback wise.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

I gotta be honest. I never thought that in 2012 I'd be asking this question.

I'm seeking some info on the slot machine Diamond Thief. I'm looking for the entry point, or some data I can use to calculate an entry point: the frequency of the DT logo landing on all of the nine spots, the distribution of the random bonus, etc.

#3

Give it about 20,000 coin in and you'll be able to tell where that machine is payback wise.

What I meant was let the public give it all that coin-in and you track the numbers.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

#4

The Blue Hole... I'm not surprised there's a name for it. When I found the game, it was full enough for me to play it through one cycle. Or so I thought. When I finally popped the case and (luckily) recovered ~90% of my drop, the new case was perfectly 8/9 full: six full in the outer eight, empty in the center. And (obviously) zero in the bonus. Call me crazy, but I had a feeling that continuing was a bad idea.

#5

The Blue Hole... I'm not surprised there's a name for it. When I found the game, it was full enough for me to play it through one cycle. Or so I thought. When I finally popped the case and (luckily) recovered ~90% of my drop, the new case was perfectly 8/9 full: six full in the outer eight, empty in the center. And (obviously) zero in the bonus. Call me crazy, but I had a feeling that continuing was a bad idea.

One thing I failed to cover is whether to bet one coin or two coins (some machines are three coiners). I always bet one coin. It puts you into the long run much faster for hitting the 3 Sevens, and the Diamonds in the Screen. My ballpark guesstimate for hitting the 3 Sevens is about every 1000 spins, making the 3 Sevens about 10% of the payback.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

#6

In the link a picture of a Diamond Thief is located second row left.

http://www.lbslot.com/slot-machines/used-slot-machines.php?cat=1&catname=use-slot-machine&subcat=29&subcatname=IGT+S2000+Vision

You can see the LED screen at the top right corner of the machine. The nine sections, that have some diamonds already popped in, is called the large valise. Just to the lower left of the large valise is the small valise. And just above the small valise, the little brown box, is a meter that counts coins.

The main symbol in this game is the Diamond. Then you have Red Sevens, Triple Bars, Double Bars, Single Bars.

This description is based on betting one coin at a time:

Back to the large valise. I'm gonna number the sections of the large valise. The top left section is #1, top middle is #2, top right is #3, middle left is #4, center is #5, middle right is #6, bottom left is #7, bottom middle is #8, bottom right is #9. These sections correspond to the nine different positions that symbols can land in the screen of the main game.

Now look at the reels. If a diamond symbol on the first reel lands just above the line, it will put a diamond in section #1 of the large valise. If the diamond symbol on the first reel lands on the line it will put a diamond into section #4. If the diamond symbol on the first reel lands just below the line it will put a diamond into section #7.
The other reels work the same way. The object is to fill up the large valise to get a bonus. Plus you will also be awarded any coins that are in the meter above the small valise.

In the link, you will see that section #7 of the large valise is full. So what happens then if a diamond lands below the line on the first reel? It will put a diamond in section #7 of the small valise and one coin in the meter(2 diamonds and 2 coins if you are betting 2 coins). This is how all the other sections work too. Anytime a section of the large valise is full and a diamond lands in the corresponding position, then the diamonds go into the small valise and coins go into the meter.

If a section of both the large valise and small valise are full then anytime a diamond lands in the corresponding position, it will put 2 coins in the meter (if you are betting one coin, 4 if you are betting 2 2 coins).

As the large valise is filling up with diamonds, the small valise is also filling up, but it will never become full like the large valise.

Eventually you are going to be down to one diamond to go in the large valise. Let's say the last diamond you need is in section #2. When you pop that last diamond in you are awarded the coins in the meter, and also a bonus behind the large valise, either 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 200 or 500 coins (it's weighted random). Then the small valise, usually about 3 quarters of the way full with diamonds, will become the large valise for the next cycle....and section #2 will be completely empty because that's the last section of the large valise you needed to fill to complete the play. The small valise comes back empty.

Section #2 becomes the Blue Hole in the next cycle (other sections can also be completely empty). Of course, you won't be playing through another cycle. You're gonna cash out and let the tourists knock it down to where it's an advantage play.

#7

Also, in the link, second row right, you will find a picture of the Fox Hound. This was an advantage play too. And the play carried no cost to spin it off. It was 100% profit.

Notice, on the panel below the reels, that the credit and play buttons are lit. This means there are credits on the machine. Notice that the big button in the center of the panel is not lit. When you trigger the bonus round (about every 60 spins or so)that big button in the center will light up. You have to hit that button in order to get into the bonus round.

Sometimes, when I would be making laps around the Vision machines looking for advantage plays, I would see that big button on a Fox Hound was lit up. None of the other buttons would be lit. What does that mean?

It means that a tourist bet his/her last credits and triggered the bonus round, but didn't notice it and walked off. So all I had to do was hit the button and it was free money.

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http://www.lbslot.com/slot-machines/used-slot-machines.php?cat=1&catname=use-slot-machine&subcat=29&subcatname=IGT+S2000+Vision

#8

Nice, my next question had to do with the number of credits to play. On my exploratory session, I started with one credit, but later bumped to full (three) credits to end the experiment and get back to my more profitable green felt. Thanks for your candidness on this subject, Mickey. I hope one day I can pay you back, whether it's info, or a shot of VO and a beer.

#9

Betting one coin is much more time consuming but allows you to come closer to the average for hitting the Red Sevens, which I believe is about 10% of the payback.

Thanks for the offer of the beer and shot, but I'm on spin dry. I'm out working everyday. When I'm all dryed out I'm much more idustrious, and my mind works a hell of a lot better. I'm also an early riser when I'm dryed out. I'm usually up by 4 or 5 AM, but I can't get into the casinos until 8 AM. So what better way to spend the time than on vpFREE?

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

Nice, my next question had to do with the number of credits to play. On my exploratory session, I started with one credit, but later bumped to full (three) credits to end the experiment and get back to my more profitable green felt. Thanks for your candidness on this subject, Mickey. I hope one day I can pay you back, whether it's info, or a shot of VO and a beer.

#10

Also in the link, in the third row is a Good Times machine. Instead of writing about it here I'm gonna pull up an old post I made on it.

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>
> http://www.lbslot.com/slot-machines/used-slot-machines.php?cat=1&catname=use-slot-machine&subcat=29&subcatname=IGT+S2000+Vision
>

#11

Thanks for the offer of the beer and shot, but I'm on spin dry

Proud of you. . . . . my friend got her hubby into a 8-5 rehab program–so he's
busy and watched over when she's at work. He's also going to AA. . . . We're
hoping that the rehab program will include her at some point but we (all of us
co-workers) keep telling her to get some help herself–I keep telling her Al-Anon.
Wow! Up at 4-5am??? I get up then only because I have to!

PS-- Found the info on Diamond Thief very interesting!
What gaming device HAVEN'T you figured out?

Jean H--
The random number generator does not respond
to violence. -Melissa Fine, Strictly Slots

Life is ten percent what you make it
and ninety percent how you take it!

“I believe in luck: how else can you explain
the success of those you dislike?” —Jean Cocteau

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From: Mickey <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:18 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Diamond Thief

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

Nice, my next question had to do with the number of credits to play. On my exploratory session, I started with one credit, but later bumped to full (three) credits to end the experiment and get back to my more profitable green felt. Thanks for your candidness on this subject, Mickey. I hope one day I can pay you back, whether it's info, or a shot of VO and a beer.

Betting one coin is much more time consuming but allows you to come closer to the average for hitting the Red Sevens, which I believe is about 10% of the payback.

Thanks for the offer of the beer and shot, but I'm on spin dry. I'm out working everyday. When I'm all dryed out I'm much more idustrious, and my mind works a hell of a lot better. I'm also an early riser when I'm dryed out. I'm usually up by 4 or 5 AM, but I can't get into the casinos until 8 AM. So what better way to spend the time than on vpFREE?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

Sorry hit reply on this and didn't change addy--nothin' that's earth
shattering here. . . . .

Jean H--
The random number generator does not respond
to violence. -Melissa Fine, Strictly Slots

Life is ten percent what you make it
and ninety percent how you take it!

“I believe in luck: how else can you explain
the success of those you dislike?” —Jean Cocteau

···

________________________________
From: K/J Haka <kjhaka@yahoo.com>
To: "vpFREE@yahoogroups.com" <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Diamond Thief

Thanks for the offer of the beer and shot, but I'm on spin dry

Proud of you. . . . . my friend got her hubby into a 8-5 rehab program–so he's
busy and watched over when she's at work. He's also going to AA. . . . We're
hoping that the rehab program will include her at some point but we (all of us
co-workers) keep telling her to get some help herself–I keep telling her Al-Anon.
Wow! Up at 4-5am??? I get up then only because I have to!

PS-- Found the info on Diamond Thief very interesting!
What gaming device HAVEN'T you figured out?

Jean H--
The random number generator does not respond
to violence. -Melissa Fine, Strictly Slots

Life is ten percent what you make it
and ninety percent how you take it!

“I believe in luck: how else can you explain
the success of those you dislike?” —Jean Cocteau

From: Mickey <mickeycrimm@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:18 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP: Diamond Thief

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

Nice, my next question had to do with the number of credits to play. On my exploratory session, I started with one credit, but later bumped to full (three) credits to end the experiment and get back to my more profitable green felt. Thanks for your candidness on this subject, Mickey. I hope one day I can pay you back, whether it's info, or a shot of VO and a beer.

Betting one coin is much more time consuming but allows you to come closer to the average for hitting the Red Sevens, which I believe is about 10% of the payback.

Thanks for the offer of the beer and shot, but I'm on spin dry. I'm out working everyday. When I'm all dryed out I'm much more idustrious, and my mind works a hell of a lot better. I'm also an early riser when I'm dryed out. I'm usually up by 4 or 5 AM, but I can't get into the casinos until 8 AM. So what better way to spend the time than on vpFREE?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

That's my job, K/J. Some people do crossword puzzles. Some people do sudoku. I do gaming devices-they are puzzles to be solved too.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, K/J Haka <kjhaka@...> wrote:

PS-- Found the info on Diamond Thief very interesting!
What gaming device HAVEN'T you figured out?

#14

Most Diamond Thiefs were two coiners, but there were some three coiners around. Some hustlers put down a play on the three coiners that I didn't care much for.

This situation sometimes developes when you are spinning a play off. You are down to just one section of the large valise needing diamonds. In the process of trying to fill it up, you wind up filling up the entire small valise, except for the section that corresponds to the section of the large valise you are trying to fill up.

At that point, some hustlers, when they get the last section down to one diamond to go, will go to betting three coins. This is their reasoning:

1. Anytime a diamond symbol lands in another section while I'm betting three coins it's going to put double coins (6 coins) in the bank, defraying my cost.

2. When I catch the diamond symbol in the section where I need one diamond to complete the play, it's going to put the extra two diamonds in the small valise, meaning, when the play is over and the small valise becomes the large valise, I can play through another cycle because there won't be a blue hole. It will be only 4 to go to complete another play.

The problem with reason #1. I don't like this reasoning at all. Sure, it's defraying the cost. But even though you are putting double coins in the bank, you are still getting dropped. Which means you are paying an up front cost to create another play.

The problem with reason #2. The small valise is going to be completely empty on the next play, which means there aren't going to be any coins in the bank. And there won't be very many coins in the bank when you complete this play....unless you experience some heavy negative variance and it takes you way to many spins to complete the play....which means you got dropped for way to much money.

A more refined strategy:

A 4 hole in the large valise, but little or no diamonds in the small valise (which means there are no coins in the bank)is not a good play.

A 4 hole in the large valise, and the small valise is mostly full of diamonds, is a good play. The number of coins in the bank and the number of diamonds in the small valise correlate....because every time you put a diamond in the small valise it puts a coin in the bank. If there are 40 diamonds in the small valise then there will be 40 coins or more in the bank (it could be higher than 40 because of double coins going in). In the process of filling this 4 hole up you are going to run the coin meter way high. Combine that with the bonus you get for completing the play and it's a very advantageous situation.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ma18ks" <89109.nv@...> wrote:

On my exploratory session, I started with one credit, but later >bumped to full (three) credits to end the experiment....