vpFREE2 Forums

XVP - Derby Picks

And, except in BIG races like the Triple Crown, Breeder's Cup and big money
stakes races, there is also the very real possibility that a horse may be
entered to lose, or at least without the true intention to win.

Horses work their way into shape. A trainer/owner may have his eye on a race one
or two ahead of today's race, and view today's race as a training exercise, not
expecting to cash part of the purse. The "bad" race today serves a two-fold
purpose: getting the horse in shape for the goal race, and also serves to
increase the odds when the horse is really trying for the win.

Trainers get 10% of purse money earned, so on a typical day, the average purse
at Belmont park may be around $30,000. Most races will be in the $20,000 range,
say $25,000. First place gets 60% or $15,000; the winning trainer would get
$1,500. And that is a purse at a top track. Smaller tracks have significantly
smaller purses.

If a horse has had a couple of "poor" races that were really training exercises,
he may go off at 15 or 20 to 1, instead of 3-1 or 4-1. A shrewd trainer and
owner could earn a significant multiple of the purse money by betting their
now-in-top-form horse at the higher odds. Obviously at smaller tracks the
per-race handle is smaller, and a significant bet would drop the odds more than
at a larger track. But at every track there is a sweet spot where the
owner/trainer can cash a good size bet on a horse that they know is an overlay,
that the general public will overlook.

Horseracing is like a big poker game. Instead of 8 to 10 players at the table,
there are hundreds of trainers. Naturally, some are better than others. Just

like poker players, some trainers are excellent. Also just like poker players,

some trainers suck.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very well put, Chris. The heavy betting on Borel's horse yesterday was a good example. For Borel's horse's odds to make sense, Borel would have to be worth 3-4 lengths extra when compared to other top jockeys like Dominguez, Gomez and Velasquez. That's just not realistic, no matter how much you admire Borel's rides (and luck) in recent Derbies. Another example: The comparatively low odds on Pants on Fire was probably due to (1) having a female jockey, and, perhaps (2) the fun name.

When some horses are irrationally overbet, it makes finding good bets easier. You don't get that kind of impactful hunch betting in day-to-day races.

--Dunbar

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kcace1024" <cy4873@...> wrote:

Frank,

There is no math formula for horse racing. You can estimate winning probabilities based on any number of factors, but there is a lot of debate over just what factors have value. You need to identify who is overbet and who is underbet to determine if you have a positive expectancy. For many races it is difficult to find anything worth betting. The Derby almost always provides value because of the large amount of bets made without any attempt to handicap the race.

Chris

Frank, I knew an old horse bettor that was actually pretty good. I don't get involved in handicapping because I understand I don't have the skills. But this old horse bettor told me some things.

He told me that he almost exclusively bet the New York tracks because it was only 13% rake compared to at least 17% elsewhere. And he also had a Canadien account. The American and Canadien money is two separate pools and horses go off on different numbers.

This guy was like 70 years old and he told me he learned handicapping at a young age from some of the best in the world. He also told me that of the thousands of horse bettors he knew over the years there was only about a dozen where if he owned the book he'd tell them to take their business elsewhere. That's pretty much all the math I need to know.

I knew guys that made a living going to the tracks just to pick up discarded tickets.

Frank, I knew an old horse bettor that was actually pretty good. I don't get involved in handicapping because I understand I don't have the skills. But this old horse bettor told me some things.

He told me that he almost exclusively bet the New York tracks because it was only 13% rake compared to at least 17% elsewhere. And he also had a Canadien account. The American and Canadien money is two separate pools and horses go off on different numbers.

New York tracks now have a 15% takeout on win/place/show bets, though it used to be 14% and very briefly 13%. California tracks have had a 15.43% takeout on WPS for quite a while. Gulfstream Park in Florida has a 15% WPS takeout, though it used to be at least 17%.

I think Canadian and US money is now bet into the same pool. It was more fun when money at every track was separate. You could get a better price on a Ky Derby East Coast horse by betting it in Calif, and a better price on a West Coast horse by betting it in NY. There were times when you could have made a profit by betting every horse in the Derby.

http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/static.cgi?page=trktkout&header=off

This guy was like 70 years old and he told me he learned handicapping at a young age from some of the best in the world. He also told me that of the thousands of horse bettors he knew over the years there was only about a dozen where if he owned the book he'd tell them to take their business elsewhere. That's pretty much all the math I need to know.

As your acquaintance suggested, it's definitely a tough game to beat. But as in some otherwise difficult games, there are occasional opportunities to get a big edge. Successful cappers are few and far between. Despite this, they do not necessarily bring the same skills to the table. I know one successful capper who has a definite edge betting some 2-yr-old races, because he goes to the sales and is a terrific judge of running style. I was skeptical at first, but I watched him post picks for 3 years, 100's of races, and the stats were convincing. I have zero skill at watching a horse's running style, but I'm pretty good at picking out some rarish opportunities, the best of which do depend on some math. I'm pretty sure I could convince even Frank that the bets I'm making have a big edge, but it would be very counterproductive for me to do that. The parimutual nature of horseracing means that the more you (or anyone with the same idea) bet, the lower your return.

--Dunbar

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mickey" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

  The parimutual nature of horseracing means that the more you (or anyone with the same idea) bet, the lower your return.

When Beyer speed figures were first published in The Racing Times, around 1990 if I recall, one could do quite well with that information if you were familiar with how figures work. Within a year or two, Daily Racing Form bought out their competition, and nowadays these figures are incorporated in the Racing Form, where everyone and their brother can see them and use them. The high-figure horse in 1990 that went off at 3 to 1, would today go off at 6-5.

It's not just enough to have a good methodology, you've got to have one that is not popular.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

Thank you, Richard, for stating something I've been thinking for awhile
now. I'm happy to know I am not alone.

···

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Richard Long <carlboy101@yahoo.com> wrote:

This used to be a fun and informative board until a certain individual
showed up
and wants to be the Alpha member of the pack.

________________________________
From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 12:33:33 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

No he did not, but I thought I'd check the numbers, and if the math checked
out
take a small bet just for "fun".

Just so we're clear. I was describing a day spent learning new math as
fun...not
the betting.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:
> Did he ask you to check his work? Just wondering.
>
> ________________
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Richard, for stating something I've been thinking for awhile
now. I'm happy to know I am not alone.

> This used to be a fun and informative board until a certain individual
> showed up
> and wants to be the Alpha member of the pack.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank <frank@...>
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 12:33:33 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom
>
> No he did not, but I thought I'd check the numbers, and if the math checked
> out
> take a small bet just for "fun".
>
> Just so we're clear. I was describing a day spent learning new math as
> fun...not
> the betting.
>
> ~FK
>
> > Did he ask you to check his work? Just wondering.
> >
> > ________________
> > Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@...> wrote:

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Richard Long <carlboy101@...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@> wrote:

_________________________________________________________________
And here's what I think...I think U 2 need to stuff it!. I presume ur talking about Frank, not Jean altho U left both their names in. The beauty of electronic media is U don't have to open anything fm anyone U don't want to read. I happen to enjoy his insite & I think he's added to this board. I just finished his book & have met him briefly. He is pretty full of himself, but for that matter so is the other member of the radio show...who I also enjoy altho he no longer comments on this board, I suspect becuz of those like U critizing him.
Personnally I spend about 1/2 hour/ day here & enjoy all viewpoints. Just awhile back we drove away some gal that had started to blog fairly regular, and altho she was pretty wordy.....AGAIN, I STATE, U AIN'T GOTTA READ THEM, U A-HOLES. Now U can check out my ID & make sure U no longer open anything fm me as well as the others U hopefully have not driven away,>

I owe you more than a drink Coach! I put $100 on Animal Kingdom on your tip...I ALMOST threw the ticket away when Shackleford was running the whole race...at the end, I knew it wasn't Shackleford who won...but it wasn't until they announced it that I went nuts!
Thanks!!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@... wrote:

Hi Gang:
Here are my picks for tomorrow’s Kentucky Derby with a little analysis of
each horse. Good luck to everyone. Enjoy the spectacle!!
Regards,
CoachVee
1. MASTER OF HOUNDS (No. 11, 30-1). European invader lost by nostril
to superstar filly at 1 3/16 miles in UAE Derby off long layoff; stalking
style perfect for this race and breeding says he’ll love distance; picks up
Eclipse-winning jock.
2. MIDNIGHT INTERLUDE (No. 15, 10-1). Probably ran Derby distance
when four-wide throughout in Santa Anita Derby score; Baffert master at
preparing horses for this race; working like gangbusters over track.
3. NEHRO (No. 19, 6-1). Improving colt just missed in last two,
including neck loss in Arkansas Derby; trainer/jock combo top notch; will be
charging hard through stretch.
4. DIALED IN (No. 8, 4-1). Likely favorite has few flaws; right there
in four lifetime starts and trainer has won this race twice; might be left
with too much to do.
LONGSHOT SPECIAL: ANIMAL KINGDOM (No. 16, 30-1). Honest,
hard-knocking colt getting good at right time; bred to run all day; handles any
surface.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you Coachvee and Dunbar. I ended up betting on Nehro to win based on your analysis and while I didn't win, the bet was sound and made the race more exciting. In addition an online book was returning $15 in casino chips on a $30 losing bet, so I feel that, with your assistance, I entered into a sound overlay.

David

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@ wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gang:
> Here are my picks for tomorrow’s Kentucky Derby with a little analysis of
> each horse. Good luck to everyone. Enjoy the spectacle!!
> Regards,
> CoachVee
> 1. MASTER OF HOUNDS (No. 11, 30-1). European invader lost by nostril
> to superstar filly at 1 3/16 miles in UAE Derby off long layoff; stalking
> style perfect for this race and breeding says he’ll love distance; picks up
> Eclipse-winning jock.
> 2. MIDNIGHT INTERLUDE (No. 15, 10-1). Probably ran Derby distance
> when four-wide throughout in Santa Anita Derby score; Baffert master at
> preparing horses for this race; working like gangbusters over track.
> 3. NEHRO (No. 19, 6-1). Improving colt just missed in last two,
> including neck loss in Arkansas Derby; trainer/jock combo top notch; will be
> charging hard through stretch.
> 4. DIALED IN (No. 8, 4-1). Likely favorite has few flaws; right there
> in four lifetime starts and trainer has won this race twice; might be left
> with too much to do.
> LONGSHOT SPECIAL: ANIMAL KINGDOM (No. 16, 30-1). Honest,
> hard-knocking colt getting good at right time; bred to run all day; handles any
> surface.
>

I agree with your high opinion of Nehro and Midnight Interlude. They would be co-favorites in my own line at about 9-1.

I like your longshot, too, though your comment "handles any surface" is a stretch.

IMO, Dialed In is a strong bet against. I can not see any reason for Dialed In to be favored over 5-6 other horses. In addition to Nehro and Midnight Inerlude, I think ArchArchArch, Mucho Macho Man, and Shackleford have a better chance to win than Dialed In.

Having an overbet horse like Dialed In and, to a lesser extent, Twice The Appeal (vastly overbet because of Borel riding), makes it possible that many of the other horses will be bettable.

It's impossible for me to guage Master of Hounds' chances. But DRF's Mike Welch, who's a pretty good judge of horses' motion, said he looked awful when he finally got to the Churchill track.

My own longshot recommendation would be Comma To The Top. I seem to be alone in thinking this horse has a shot to win it. He is currently the longest odds in early betting.

--Dunbar

WHAT ONLINE BOOK HAD THAT OFFER?

···

-----Original Message-----
From: David <d_richheimer@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 7:01 am
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks

Thank you Coachvee and Dunbar. I ended up betting on Nehro to win based on your analysis and while I didn't win, the bet was sound and made the race more exciting. In addition an online book was returning $15 in casino chips on a $30 losing bet, so I feel that, with your assistance, I entered into a sound overlay.

David

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dunbar_dra" <h_dunbar@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, coachvee@ wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gang:
> Here are my picks for tomorrow’s Kentucky Derby with a little analysis of
> each horse. Good luck to everyone. Enjoy the spectacle!!
> Regards,
> CoachVee
> 1. MASTER OF HOUNDS (No. 11, 30-1). European invader lost by nostril
> to superstar filly at 1 3/16 miles in UAE Derby off long layoff; stalking
> style perfect for this race and breeding says he’ll love distance; picks up
> Eclipse-winning jock.
> 2. MIDNIGHT INTERLUDE (No. 15, 10-1). Probably ran Derby distance
> when four-wide throughout in Santa Anita Derby score; Baffert master at
> preparing horses for this race; working like gangbusters over track.
> 3. NEHRO (No. 19, 6-1). Improving colt just missed in last two,
> including neck loss in Arkansas Derby; trainer/jock combo top notch; will be
> charging hard through stretch.
> 4. DIALED IN (No. 8, 4-1). Likely favorite has few flaws; right there
> in four lifetime starts and trainer has won this race twice; might be left
> with too much to do.
> LONGSHOT SPECIAL: ANIMAL KINGDOM (No. 16, 30-1). Honest,
> hard-knocking colt getting good at right time; bred to run all day; handles any
> surface.
>

I agree with your high opinion of Nehro and Midnight Interlude. They would be co-favorites in my own line at about 9-1.

I like your longshot, too, though your comment "handles any surface" is a stretch.

IMO, Dialed In is a strong bet against. I can not see any reason for Dialed In to be favored over 5-6 other horses. In addition to Nehro and Midnight Inerlude, I think ArchArchArch, Mucho Macho Man, and Shackleford have a better chance to win than Dialed In.

Having an overbet horse like Dialed In and, to a lesser extent, Twice The Appeal (vastly overbet because of Borel riding), makes it possible that many of the other horses will be bettable.

It's impossible for me to guage Master of Hounds' chances. But DRF's Mike Welch, who's a pretty good judge of horses' motion, said he looked awful when he finally got to the Churchill track.

My own longshot recommendation would be Comma To The Top. I seem to be alone in thinking this horse has a shot to win it. He is currently the longest odds in early betting.

--Dunbar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For someone to question the "math" of a retired professional handicapper is insulting. Coach V is a pro annd anyone who's been a member of this board for as long as the rest of us know this. Having this board hijacked for the purposes of self promotion is annoying, to say the least. I vote with you, Pat

···

From: Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2011 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

Thank you, Richard, for stating something I've been thinking for awhile
now. I'm happy to know I am not alone.

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Richard Long <carlboy101@yahoo.com> wrote:

This used to be a fun and informative board until a certain individual
showed up
and wants to be the Alpha member of the pack.

________________________________
From: Frank <frank@progressivevp.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 12:33:33 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

No he did not, but I thought I'd check the numbers, and if the math checked
out
take a small bet just for "fun".

Just so we're clear. I was describing a day spent learning new math as
fun...not
the betting.

~FK

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@...> wrote:
> Did he ask you to check his work? Just wondering.
>
> ________________
> Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did not know Coach V is a retired professional handicapper. I hope the Coach can share some info on his career. I would be very interested to hear the details of the process from a professional.

What is with all the Frank bashing! I find his posts very entertaining. It is good to have a new voice with some unique experience on this forum.

Chris

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Pat Nashick <patnashick@...> wrote:

For someone to question the "math" of a retired professional handicapper is insulting. Coach V is a pro annd anyone who's been a member of this board for as long as the rest of us know this. Having this board hijacked for the purposes of self promotion is annoying, to say the least. I vote with you, Pat   Â

From: Luke Fuller <kungalooosh@...>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2011 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom

Â
Thank you, Richard, for stating something I've been thinking for awhile
now. I'm happy to know I am not alone.

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 3:57 AM, Richard Long <carlboy101@...> wrote:

> This used to be a fun and informative board until a certain individual
> showed up
> and wants to be the Alpha member of the pack.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank <frank@...>
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 12:33:33 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: XVP - Derby Picks...Animal Kingdom
>
> No he did not, but I thought I'd check the numbers, and if the math checked
> out
> take a small bet just for "fun".
>
> Just so we're clear. I was describing a day spent learning new math as
> fun...not
> the betting.
>
> ~FK
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@> wrote:
> > Did he ask you to check his work? Just wondering.
> >
> > ________________
> > Jean $¢ott, Frugal Gambler
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Frank wrote:

No formula. Arrgh!!! Guess it's not for me then. Don't involve myself
with things that eat.

I prefer pure math.

I presume you're not a hold'em player either. Nor am I, for that matter, but I've presumed that betting in that game merely based upon successful hand completion probabilities is a self-defeating proposition, and that it's necessary to have a strong read on the other players themselves.

- H.

Bodog

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, leslieB184@... wrote:

WHAT ONLINE BOOK HAD THAT OFFER?