vpFREE2 Forums

XVP: CASINO 'SECURITY'?: Gambling with your liberty

#1

In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jackessiebabe@yahoo.com writes:

I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a casino,
has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!

Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money that pass
through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams every year and end up in
serious trouble for their efforts even if they work for a while. Greed will
get you in the end.

Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jackessiebabe@y... writes:

I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a

casino,

has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!

Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money that

pass

through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams every

year and end up in

serious trouble for their efforts even if they work for a while.

Greed will

get you in the end.

Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's letter
is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know do
nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and non
advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
treatment. Well publicized is the case of Gosjean and Russo vs
Nevada Gaming, Imperial Palace, Caesar's and Griffin Detective
Agency. The court ruled gaming exempt but found both Griffin and
Caesar's guilty of unlawful detention and Griffin guilty of
defamation of character.
A big part of the problem is casino security are really just renta
cops and nothing more. They really do not have the proper training
and will sometimes act in a way that can be damaging for both the
customer and the casino in court.
The other big part of the problem is over 100 casinos depend upon
the Griffin Agency. This is perhaps the sweetest deal in the
world. Six people work out of a structure behind Beverly Griffin's
home. Over 100 casinos send them information on cheats and
advantage players. They compile it and then sell back this
information to those same casinos. Within the Griffin Blue Book
(think it is 4 volumes but not sure) an honest advantage player, the
guy who cheats and the guy who makes counterfeit chips are all
lumped together along with suspected confederates. Suspected
confederates have been more than a few times an innocent person who
happened to be at the same table as a cheat. The court had great
concern about the way these books are put together without often any
proof resulting in defamation of innocent people put in in error.
Griffin is a big problem because some Griffin subscribers instead of
using their common sense will act upon information in Griffin.

Robert also is not some big time mouthpiece as someone called him
but a dedicated advocate.
To whomever said that as private businesses casinos have the right
to ask someone to leave, you are definately correct, but they do not
have the right to kidnap or illegally detain you if you have done
nothing illegal and that is what he is talking about.
Thank you Robert

Victoria

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:

Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
wrote:
Hi Victoria,

Now I realize what politicians mean when they say that they were
"quoted out of context". If you read my previous post you'll see
that I agree with you completely, and basically made the same
comments that you did (in response to the post that defended the
right of casinos to engage in egregious conduct against lawful
players.) We are really both on the same page (as is Karen, I'm
sure.)

Regards,
Babe

···

-------------------------------------------
In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. jackessiebabe@y..wrote:
I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a
casino, has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!
--------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:
Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money that
pass through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams
every year and end up in serious trouble for their efforts even if
they work for a while. Greed will get you in the end.
---------------------------------------------
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's letter
is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know do
nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and non
advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
treatment.............................
                <snip>
Victoria

>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#4

The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

Is the person counting cards legally, or does he have a BJ computer
hidden in his (or her) shoe? Till they take you into the back room and
see what you have on your person they do not know.

Years ago, when I was in college I worked in retail. I KNEW some
people were shoplifting, but if I did not see them pocket something I
could not stop them. I just was not sure 100% what they took, but I
knew they took SOMETHING, if I could not identify the item I could not
stop them. The moment I saw somebody put somthing and knew what it
was, into a bag/pocket etc. I COULD detain them. Rarely, some people
were wrongly detained. They brought in a shirt to match with some
pants. All I saw was somebody putting a shirt back in a bag......

Casinos are the some of the biggest retail enviornments on the planet.
They sell fun and games. Do they overstop their bounds, yes. But being
on the other side for a while I do understand. There were some people
I wish I could have kicked out the moment they walked through the door.

-Dave

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
wrote:
Hi Victoria,

Now I realize what politicians mean when they say that they were
"quoted out of context". If you read my previous post you'll see
that I agree with you completely, and basically made the same
comments that you did (in response to the post that defended the
right of casinos to engage in egregious conduct against lawful
players.) We are really both on the same page (as is Karen, I'm
sure.)

Regards,
Babe
-------------------------------------------
In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. jackessiebabe@y...:
I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a
casino, has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!
--------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:
Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money that
pass through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams
every year and end up in serious trouble for their efforts even if
they work for a while. Greed will get you in the end.
---------------------------------------------
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's letter
is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know do
nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and non
advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
treatment.............................
                <snip>
Victoria

> >
> > Karen
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person

is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

Is th
stop them. The moment I saw somebody put somthing and knew what it
was, into a bag/pocket etc. I C
on the other side for a while I do understand. There were some

people

I wish I could have kicked out the moment they walked through the

door.
Dave

-Dav<jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
> wrote:
> Hi Victoria,
>
> Now I realize what politicians mean when they say that they were
> "quoted out of context". If you read my previous post you'll see
> that I agree with you completely, and basically made the same
> comments that you did (in response to the post that defended the
> right of casinos to engage in egregious conduct against lawful
> players.) We are really both on the same page (as is Karen, I'm
> sure.)
>
> Regards,
> Babe
> -------------------------------------------
> In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. jackessiebabe@y...:
> I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a
> casino, has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!
> --------------------------------------------
> Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money

that

> pass through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams
> every year and end up in serious trouble for their efforts

even if

> they work for a while. Greed will get you in the end.
> ---------------------------------------------
> In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
> Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's

letter

> is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
> addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know

do

> nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and

non

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:
> advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
> treatment.............................
> <snip>
> Victoria
>
>
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person

is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

Is th
stop them. The moment I saw somebody put somthing and knew what it
was, into a bag/pocket etc. I C
on the other side for a while I do understand. There were some

people

I wish I could have kicked out the moment they walked through the

door.
Dave

-Dav<jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
> wrote:
> Hi Victoria,
>
> Now I realize what politicians mean when they say that they were
> "quoted out of context". If you read my previous post you'll see
> that I agree with you completely, and basically made the same
> comments that you did (in response to the post that defended the
> right of casinos to engage in egregious conduct against lawful
> players.) We are really both on the same page (as is Karen, I'm
> sure.)
>
> Regards,
> Babe
> -------------------------------------------
> In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. jackessiebabe@y...:
> I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a
> casino, has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!
> --------------------------------------------
> Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money

that

> pass through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams
> every year and end up in serious trouble for their efforts

even if

> they work for a while. Greed will get you in the end.
> ---------------------------------------------
> In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
> Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's

letter

> is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
> addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know

do

> nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and

non

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:
> advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
> treatment.............................
> <snip>
> Victoria
>
>
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

Sorry about the last post. I was in the process of deleting several
other posts at the bottom of the message, when the computer demon,
who resides in my computer and occasionally misbehaves, sent the
message. Not my fault! The devil made me do it!

Dave, I do sympathize with the possible dilemma which you address
below. However, unless you are suggesting that EVERY gambler, who
is "unlucky enough" to finally hit a "monster lucky streak" (be it
BJ, Craps, Slots or VP) should be subjected to strip & search
tactics, I don't think there is a practical way to make this
determination.

Of course, the casino can always use the profiling techniques
utilized against terrorists by the federal government. But, it seems
to me that this is also fraught with peril. The scruffy guy who
seems to fit the pattern, may actually be a respected attorney. The
unkempt woman who seems "be nervous", may be mother of an attorney,
who forgot her daily Prozac.

Because of these very real problems, IMO the casino should opt to
err on the side of conservative caution rather than treading
heavily on the civil rights of their players.

Babe

···

---------------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:
The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person
is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

#8

Playing devils advocate here in my next statement:

"Because of these very real problems, IMO the casino should opt to
err on the side of conservative caution rather than treading
heavily on the civil rights of their players."

Then you get 10 million screaming stockholders (myself included)
wanting to know why profits are down .0001% this quarter. :frowning:

It is a no win situation, and the casinos have to walk a very fine
line. Sometimes they do go over it (Way, way, wayyyyy over it) and I'm
sure other times they do err on the side of caution. We will just
never know about those times, becuse nothing happened as Joe cheater
walked out with $8500 and vanished into the night.

-Dave

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...> wrote:

Sorry about the last post. I was in the process of deleting several
other posts at the bottom of the message, when the computer demon,
who resides in my computer and occasionally misbehaves, sent the
message. Not my fault! The devil made me do it!

Dave, I do sympathize with the possible dilemma which you address
below. However, unless you are suggesting that EVERY gambler, who
is "unlucky enough" to finally hit a "monster lucky streak" (be it
BJ, Craps, Slots or VP) should be subjected to strip & search
tactics, I don't think there is a practical way to make this
determination.

Of course, the casino can always use the profiling techniques
utilized against terrorists by the federal government. But, it seems
to me that this is also fraught with peril. The scruffy guy who
seems to fit the pattern, may actually be a respected attorney. The
unkempt woman who seems "be nervous", may be mother of an attorney,
who forgot her daily Prozac.

Because of these very real problems, IMO the casino should opt to
err on the side of conservative caution rather than treading
heavily on the civil rights of their players.

Babe

---------------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:
The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person
is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

#9

I don't believe that the casino is supposed to have the right to
search, especially strip search. And don't verbally give them
permission to search either. They should detain and then call the
cops who should get a search warrant if they have probable cause. I'm
pretty sure that there is an Amendment to some Constitution, but the
courts do seem to be using the document as toilet paper recently.

dipy911

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

Is the person counting cards legally, or does he have a BJ computer
hidden in his (or her) shoe? Till they take you into the back room and
see what you have on your person they do not know.

#10

Next time you see me in the casino, I'll hope you say hello! :slight_smile:

···

On Jul 19, 2005, at 1:05 PM, jackessiebabe wrote:

The scruffy guy who
seems to fit the pattern, may actually be a respected attorney.

#11

If you wear a red carnation behind your ear, I'll find you
and say hello. I LOVE lawyers......My grandson is one !

Babe

···

--------------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Thomas <jfthomas3@c...> wrote:

Next time you see me in the casino, I'll hope you say hello! :slight_smile:

------------------------------------------------------
On Jul 19, 2005, at 1:05 PM, jackessiebabe wrote:

The scruffy guy who seems to fit the pattern, may actually be a
respected attorney.

#12

Sorry about that, read them one at a time and responded without
looking at earlier ones.
Victoria

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@y...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
wrote:
Hi Victoria,

Now I realize what politicians mean when they say that they were
"quoted out of context". If you read my previous post you'll see
that I agree with you completely, and basically made the same
comments that you did (in response to the post that defended the
right of casinos to engage in egregious conduct against lawful
players.) We are really both on the same page (as is Karen, I'm
sure.)

Regards,
Babe
-------------------------------------------
In a message dated 7/18/2005 12:05:37 P.M. jackessiebabe@y...:
I do think that anyone who knowingly cheats or steals from a
casino, has a few bulbs missing from their chandelier!
--------------------------------------------
Yet the temptation is there because of the amounts of money that
pass through the casino's hands. I'm sure people try new scams
every year and end up in serious trouble for their efforts even

if

they work for a while. Greed will get you in the end.
---------------------------------------------
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Victoria Rosado" <ros4144@y...>
Yes, cheaters or thieves deserve what they get, but Robert's

letter

is not addressing the treatment given to these people. He is
addressing both advantage players, who in case you do not know do
nothing illegal and play the game within the casinos rules, and

non

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, krallison416@a... wrote:
advantage players who on rare occassions have gotten back room
treatment.............................
                <snip>
Victoria

> >
> > Karen
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

The problem can be, at 1st the casino DOES NOT KNOW if the person is.

1) Lucky.
2) An advantage player.
3) Cheating.

Is the person counting cards legally, or does he have a BJ computer
hidden in his (or her) shoe? Till they take you into the back room

and

see what you have on your person they do not know.

So you are stating that poorly trained casino security has the same
power as the police to search you? I think Nevada gives them the
right to detain you if you are accused of a crime and then the police
can search you. You should insist upon being detained in a public
area, it was they make you go to the backroom that they have been
found guilty in court.
Please, casino security is nothing close to the police and should
never be confused with them in either power or training.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote:

#14

Playing devils advocate here in my next statement:

"Because of these very real problems, IMO the casino should opt to
err on the side of conservative caution rather than treading
heavily on the civil rights of their players."

Then you get 10 million screaming stockholders (myself included)
wanting to know why profits are down .0001% this quarter. :frowning:

It is a no win situation, and the casinos have to walk a very fine
line. Sometimes they do go over it (Way, way, wayyyyy over it) and

I'm

sure other times they do err on the side of caution. We will just
never know about those times, becuse nothing happened as Joe

cheater

walked out with $8500 and vanished into the night.

-Dave

Dave

Going out on a limb here, but I would guess that since blackjack
computers have not been used effectively since they became illegal
in Nevada in the early 80's and do no more than a counter can do
anyway with today's game, that nearly every cheater is caught by
either observation or the eye in the sky or a combination of both.
With tape to backup the accusation of cheating, when a cheater is
caught he is prosecuted as he should be.
The problem for you as a stockholder, the management of the casino
and the honest vast majority of your patrons is you have poorly
trained security people and some managers who swear by the rouge
outfit Griffin and the result will be more and more lawsuits that
should be avoided. You should also be aware that employee theft has
always been a bigger problem than customer theft of casino assets.

Another real danger is counterfeit gaming chips, which is probably
the real reason Wynn opened with RFID chips. In Asia a huge amount
(several million) of counterfeit chips were used and some $50,000
were discovered at a Reno area casino recently. When you think
about it the technology today can counterfeit a rare coin so well
that only a handful of experts can tell, so I would think a clay
chip, even with secret identifers, would be much easier.

So cheaters can be a real problem, but if a casinos pit and
surviellance people are so inept that they can not tell the
difference between a cheater and a counter, then that particular
casino may well deserve the lawsuit that comes their way for
overrecating.
Victoria

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dsfeuer" <dave.feuer@g...> wrote: