vpFREE2 Forums

Wynn FreeCredits...

You are doing (interesting) math that does not apply to how most
knowledgeable people will play at Wynn.

Let's assume you will play 30,000 points each month, no matter what, to get
the max FreeCredits, and then not play again that month. Once each FC amount
is played through, you will begin earning points. It doesn't matter if you
cash out the balance after your FCs are played through, and then put in "your
own" money, or if you just continue to play on whatever is remaining of your
FC. The balance just becomes part of your bankroll. There is no "extra action"
generated by the FCs, at least not for smart players, as playing beyond
30,000 points (on a negative game, including CB) generates no additional FC. And
this also applies to people who play a lesser amount to receive less FC--most
still stop playing just after hitting the correct number of points to
achieve the FC "tier" that they desire.

So, because you do not earn points during your FC play, you must play
(assuming you receive $1000 X 4 each month in FCs) an "additional" $4000 coin-in to
get your 30,000 points, compared to if you DID get points during your FC
play. So, as I said, you "lose" only $4000/9 = 444 points, which is $8.88 for
the month. Not a big deal for players who are giving $270K coin-in!

For players who play haphazardly, with no logical plan, certainly if they do
well during their FC play they might play much longer, and therefore generate
more points and comps. This should not apply to smart local players, but
will for "other" locals.

Brian

···

=========================================

In a message dated 1/8/2007 11:26:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
vpfree_digests@vpfree2.com writes:

I think you are wrong here. You are neglecting the possibiity of "winning"
hands when
playing FC. So with (for example) $1000 in FC at the Wynn, you
would have rx'ed much more than $2.22 from the 111 "lost" points -- if you
played it out.
The reason for this is due to the "action" the $1000 FC generted and how
many points
exactly depends on the game you play.

Figuring out the "average" amount of points (ignoring gamblers ruin issues)
is pretty
straight forward. Suppose, you are going to play one of the $1 99.99%
machines. $1000
is then a backroll of 200 bets (someone check my math). You quit when you
have less than
1 bet left. If this is the case, how many "bets" on average do you make
(ignoring ruin)?
Easy, solve for b (integer, rounded up) in

200 x (.9999) ^ b = 1

Or,

b = log(1/200) / log(.9999)

So, b = 5299. That means, on average, you had $5*5299 = $26,495 in "FC
Coin-in" or
action from your orginal $1000 FC. At 1 pt / $9, this is 2943.9 points.
  Now, if you did
actually earn points on the FC, you could then turn those points intro more
Freecredit
(about $60 I think?), which would in turn generate more points, and then
more free credit,
and so on, and so on. I leave it up to the interested reader to figure what
that would
amount to (on average, negelecting ruin)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is no "extra action" generated by the FCs, at least not for
smart players, as playing beyond 30,000 points (on a negative game,
including CB) generates no additional FC.

Excellent post, but why would someone gamble 270K (including CB) on a
negative game? Are you saying the Free Credits make it positive?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

but why would someone gamble 270K (including CB) on a
negative game? Are you saying the Free Credits make it positive?

No. Pure mathematics makes it positive. According to Bjays's post, $270K /
month will net you 4 X $1,000 in free play. Now, let's say that you look in
the database and decide that you will do all of your play on the $5 NSUD,
800 hands an hr., it should take you 13.5 hrs. / month to log the $270K.
Based on the ER of NSUD, rounding down to 99.7% to allow you a few mistakes,
you should lose $810 on your play. The 30,000 points that you generated
will net you $600 in CB (.222% rate). So, whatever you get from your $4,000
in free play, add the $600 in CB and subtract your
$810 loss on the play of the game, does it sound positive now?
                                Nudge

···

From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Wynn FreeCredits...

Let's keep things terse. LOL
99.9 +.22 + .11 > 100. There are 4 machines with 99.9 games on them. A smart player -
local or not might just play on those machines.
I leave it up to the player to figure out what FC would be worth to them if it itself earned
FC (as if it was cash) and what it is worth if it is as it actually is (doesn't earn more FC).
Maybe someone could answer this: if FC did earn FC how mathematicaly would it differ
from ordinary bankroll? Sure, there might be a physcological factor here-- and surely
some might argue (correctly) that FC should be discounted in value (since you have to play
it to actually get cash from it)-- but other than that, how would FC vary from our bankroll
if it did earn FC?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@...> wrote:

From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@...>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Wynn FreeCredits...

> but why would someone gamble 270K (including CB) on a
> negative game? Are you saying the Free Credits make it positive?

No. Pure mathematics makes it positive. According to Bjays's post, $270K /
month will net you 4 X $1,000 in free play. Now, let's say that you look in
the database and decide that you will do all of your play on the $5 NSUD,
800 hands an hr., it should take you 13.5 hrs. / month to log the $270K.
Based on the ER of NSUD, rounding down to 99.7% to allow you a few mistakes,
you should lose $810 on your play. The 30,000 points that you generated
will net you $600 in CB (.222% rate). So, whatever you get from your $4,000
in free play, add the $600 in CB and subtract your
$810 loss on the play of the game, does it sound positive now?
                                Nudge

Let's keep things terse. LOL
99.9 +.22 + .11 > 100. There are 4 machines with 99.9 games on

them. A smart player -

local or not might just play on those machines.
I leave it up to the player to figure out what FC would be worth

to them if it itself earned

FC (as if it was cash) and what it is worth if it is as it actually

is (doesn't earn more FC).

Maybe someone could answer this: if FC did earn FC how

mathematicaly would it differ

from ordinary bankroll? Sure, there might be a physcological

factor here-- and surely

some might argue (correctly) that FC should be discounted in value

(since you have to play

it to actually get cash from it)-- but other than that, how would

FC vary from our bankroll

if it did earn FC?

>
>
> From: "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@>
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Wynn FreeCredits...
>
>
> > but why would someone gamble 270K (including CB) on a
> > negative game? Are you saying the Free Credits make it

positive?

>
> No. Pure mathematics makes it positive. According to Bjays's

post, $270K /

> month will net you 4 X $1,000 in free play. Now, let's say that

you look in

> the database and decide that you will do all of your play on the

$5 NSUD,

> 800 hands an hr., it should take you 13.5 hrs. / month to log the

$270K.

> Based on the ER of NSUD, rounding down to 99.7% to allow you a

few mistakes,

> you should lose $810 on your play. The 30,000 points that you

generated

> will net you $600 in CB (.222% rate). So, whatever you get from

your $4,000

> in free play, add the $600 in CB and subtract your
> $810 loss on the play of the game, does it sound positive now?
> Nudge
>

You play 10,800 games each month, and if you do it month after month,
you can ignore variance. So you lose $810 each month. But this is
offset by $600 in CB (actually Free Play isn't it?), which at 99.7%
is actually $598 (being extremely anal), and the $4000 in Free
Credits is actually $3988. So this gives a net profit of $3988 +
$598 - $810 = $3776. Working 13.5 hours that's $280/hour. So I see
your point!!! Plus, I believe, you earn 35 free buffets (or do
buffets cost points?), and 30 entries in the Ferrari contest.
Assuming 10,000 entries (just a guess), each entry is worth about
$175,000/10,000 = $17.50, so 30 entries is worth $525 in theory.
Note: Bob Dancer does sometimes assign values to drawings in his
calculations.

To answer cdfsrules question, I don't think FC would differ from
bankroll if FC earned FC.

I went through all the above because it's a good exercise to do it,
and may be of interest to others. I really appreciate your
explanation. By the way my wife got a RF yesterday at the Wynn,
using Free Play cash! We wern't able to get on one good games near
Red 8, but it turned out OK.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "cdfsrule" <vpfree_digests@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nudge51" <nudge51@> wrote: