WMS "My Poker" not looking so hot

[Bob4]

I haven't seen anyone playing these new machines in my traveling around Vegas. They're interesting looking, and I applaud WMS for trying to get into the market, but they're confusing and I don't think the paytables are a bargain. There's got to be a reason for players to try these new machines.

I'm kinda reminded of those "Guaranteed Play" things that were all over Stations' properties a few years ago. I don't think that was a huge success.

Let's face it, video poker players are smarter than your average slot player and you've got to do something extra to win their loyalty.

[haaljo_haaljo]

If they put in some decent paytables on them, more people may play.

I saw a knock-off of multistrike and got excited but paytable sucked.
Did notice it took awhile for the different games to load. Something you used to see 20 years ago.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

I haven't seen anyone playing these new machines in my traveling around Vegas. They're interesting looking, and I applaud WMS for trying to get into the market, but they're confusing and I don't think the paytables are a bargain. There's got to be a reason for players to try these new machines.

I'm kinda reminded of those "Guaranteed Play" things that were all over Stations' properties a few years ago. I don't think that was a huge success.

Let's face it, video poker players are smarter than your average slot player and you've got to do something extra to win their loyalty.

[Howard_Stern1]

Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)

···

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
Bob Bartop
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 7:13 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] WMS "My Poker" not looking so hot

I haven't seen anyone playing these new machines in my traveling around
Vegas. They're interesting looking, and I applaud WMS for trying to get into
the market, but they're confusing and I don't think the paytables are a
bargain. There's got to be a reason for players to try these new machines.

I'm kinda reminded of those "Guaranteed Play" things that were all over
Stations' properties a few years ago. I don't think that was a huge success.

Let's face it, video poker players are smarter than your average slot player
and you've got to do something extra to win their loyalty.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Harry_Porter]

As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).

WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)

In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.

The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@...> wrote:

Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)

[Gilbert_Allen]

The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).

WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)

In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.

The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:
>
> Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
> able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
> PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)

[Harry_Porter]

Thanks.

Turns out that there is a Free Ride equivalent that appropriately brings the full wager game return up to snuff (for a "full pay" paytable). (FWIW, Wizard of Odds discussion lacks an analysis and instead relies upon return stats from WMS).

Again, I haven't looked at this for more than a minute or so, but I presume game strategy can be determined in a similar manner to MultiStrike. However, the 2/4/6 augments used for MultiStrike will have different values in this game. (I presume they're something like 2.0/4.5/7.0).

As has been mentioned, critical problem with the game is that there are no reports of strong 99%+ paytables being installed.

- H.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "GilbertA" <gilrus47@...> wrote:

The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@> wrote:
>
> As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).
>
> WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)
>
> In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.
>
> The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:
> >
> > Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
> > able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
> > PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)
>

[Howard_Stern1]

This game uses a thing called "Free Streak" which is almost exactly the same
as "Free Ride". (The pay tables shown in the Wizard of Odds article show the
"free streak" frequencies.)

The streak bet is a side bet of 4 units so 5 total bets and after the fourth
paying result you continue to play until you lose with each additional
winner pushing a hand to the 10x multiplier. (I think the way I read it the
winners advance from the first on so getting four paying hands means the
first one pays 10x not the last.)

I believe that because of this, the strategy is going to be much more
difficult than multi-strike.

···

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
vp_wiz
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 5:31 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: WMS "My Poker" not looking so hot

Thanks.

Turns out that there is a Free Ride equivalent that appropriately brings the
full wager game return up to snuff (for a "full pay" paytable). (FWIW,
Wizard of Odds discussion lacks an analysis and instead relies upon return
stats from WMS).

Again, I haven't looked at this for more than a minute or so, but I presume
game strategy can be determined in a similar manner to MultiStrike. However,
the 2/4/6 augments used for MultiStrike will have different values in this
game. (I presume they're something like 2.0/4.5/7.0).

As has been mentioned, critical problem with the game is that there are no
reports of strong 99%+ paytables being installed.

- H.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , "GilbertA"
<gilrus47@...> wrote:

The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> , "vp_wiz"

<harry.porter@> wrote:

>
> As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative

to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).

>
> WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure

that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total
wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)

>
> In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such

jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.

>
> The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak

features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game
return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't
expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.

>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> ,

"pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:

> >
> > Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike.

(IGT was

> > able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of

Bally's

> > PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Douglas_V]

Yes, even though this game may be more simply described as "Multi-Strike in reverse", it's not exactly the same because now hands with varying payoffs that move up the multiplier ladder, so your strategy directly depends on those hands' values and their current multiplier.

I responded to an extreme example of this on the videopoker.com forums (as Vman96) early this year to someone who asked about whether she should have kept 4 to an open-ended straight flush vs. a single Jack. She currently had AWAK worth a Royal sitting on a 5X multiplier. Correct answer: Hold the Jack and pray for any winner.

http://forum.videopoker.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5208

Thread also includes very depressing Royal Flush by me at 10X by playing the "play money" game. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Unfortunately because of these hand-dependent issues, even the Wizard of Odds has given up on trying to calculate an optimal return or a strategy. Also the Wizard of Odds webmaster has done these following simulations for 9/5 Jacks or Better (98.45% optimal for single line play):

If one follows exact single-line 9/5 JoB strategy at all times: 94.21% return.

If one always adds four units (streak bet value) to the paytable and play optimal strategy for 804/54/29/13/9/8/7/6/5: 97.19% return.

WMS claims that optimal strategy is 98.77% for 9/5 JoB w/Winning Streak.

As for Harry's post, I agree, these mainly haven't taken off because the paytables are generally terrible, even in Vegas!! Best I found in the regular VP was 55/8/5 JoB for nickels at Horseshoe Hammond. But their dollar machines there paid exactly the same as nickel machines...lol

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@...> wrote:

I believe that because of this, the strategy is going to be much more
difficult than multi-strike.

From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf Of
vp_wiz
Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2013 5:31 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: WMS "My Poker" not looking so hot

Thanks.

Turns out that there is a Free Ride equivalent that appropriately brings the
full wager game return up to snuff (for a "full pay" paytable). (FWIW,
Wizard of Odds discussion lacks an analysis and instead relies upon return
stats from WMS).

Again, I haven't looked at this for more than a minute or so, but I presume
game strategy can be determined in a similar manner to MultiStrike. However,
the 2/4/6 augments used for MultiStrike will have different values in this
game. (I presume they're something like 2.0/4.5/7.0).

As has been mentioned, critical problem with the game is that there are no
reports of strong 99%+ paytables being installed.

- H.

[Harry_Porter]

Appreciate the clarifications to this post, Douglas.

I awoke a few minutes ago after an hour's nap (have a few things that need attending to before Monday that I hadn't had the opportunity to attend to yet), and in waking found my thoughts drifting back to this thread.

It quickly dawned on me that strategy considerations were considerably more complicated than I originally contemplated for the reasons you suggest ... earlier hands are advanced up the multiplier ladder by later wins.

My realization was that if you had a quad win sitting at 5x, on the last hand, you would play it similarly to the first level of multistrike -- where the emphasis is on simply getting a win of any kind. So, for example, you hold lone high cards over low pairs.

As you stress, strategy is dependent upon the value of the played hands that you have poised to advance to the next multiplier with another win. This gives rise to a variable strategy that is even more complex than that of STP MS.

Of course, any slot manager worth his salt should recognize that implicit spread between optimal returns on the game and likely player actual returns and look to strengthen paytables to entice. (I've yet to encounter a slot manager "worth his salt".)

- H.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas V" <tringlomane@...> wrote:

Yes, even though this game may be more simply described as "Multi-Strike in reverse", it's not exactly the same because now hands with varying payoffs that move up the multiplier ladder, so your strategy directly depends on those hands' values and their current multiplier ...

[Douglas_V]

Totally agree that slot managers need to do more. From what I have seen in casinos currently, casinos are generally treating this game very similarly to "Ultimate X". Many casinos have not bothered to up Ultimate X paytables much beyond 8/5 DDB from what I have personally seen. But unlike Ultimate X, the "multiplier hook" of "Winning Streak" is not nearly as strong as Ultimate X, in my opinion. Tons of people love Ultimate X even at 8/5 DDB or worse because of the "12X miracle". Every time I walk by "Winning Streak Poker" it's pretty empty.

Also Dave "haaljo" wrote this:

Did notice it took awhile for the different games to load. Something you used to see 20 years ago.

Personally this annoyed the crap out of me as well, because it took minutes to compare paytables on these WMS units when I tried to.

If slot managers want players to play these games regularly, they need to up the base tables a couple of units. Many VP "addicts" are aware that paytables matter in their state, so they will remain at the better ones, unless the game has a very good "hook".

···

Of course, any slot manager worth his salt should recognize that implicit spread between optimal returns on the game and likely player actual returns and look to strengthen paytables to entice. (I've yet to encounter a slot manager "worth his salt".)

- H.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas V" <tringlomane@> wrote:
>
> Yes, even though this game may be more simply described as "Multi-Strike in reverse", it's not exactly the same because now hands with varying payoffs that move up the multiplier ladder, so your strategy directly depends on those hands' values and their current multiplier ...

[haaljo_haaljo]

Here's the link to the wizard's web page on this game:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/winning-streak/

Shack also has a 6 minute you tube video linked.

T'is a fun video. All you got to do is watch the last couple of minutes because he doesn't get a "winning streak" until the end.
Shack calls the game boring. Looks frustrating to me.

Watching the video didn't even make my arms start to itch.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "GilbertA" <gilrus47@...> wrote:

The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@> wrote:
>
> As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).
>
> WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)
>
> In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.
>
> The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:
> >
> > Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
> > able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
> > PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)
>

[Douglas_V]

I dunno if he really calls the game boring. He definitely calls the video boring on his page, which it generally is as he is pretty much giving us the silent treatment and doesn't hit many big hands/streaks until near the end. But I am curious as to what the girls laughing in his video were playing/doing.

Also, another interesting thing about that video at least to me, is that he mostly played a straightforward max EV strategy for single-line, but there were about a half-dozen plays where I thought an alternative move may have been better for "advancing up the ladder". For example, hold 2789 instead of 279 suited. Or hold deuce only vs. A2T suited.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@...> wrote:

Here's the link to the wizard's web page on this game:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/winning-streak/

Shack also has a 6 minute you tube video linked.

T'is a fun video. All you got to do is watch the last couple of minutes because he doesn't get a "winning streak" until the end.
Shack calls the game boring. Looks frustrating to me.

Watching the video didn't even make my arms start to itch.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "GilbertA" <gilrus47@> wrote:
>
> The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@> wrote:
> >
> > As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).
> >
> > WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)
> >
> > In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.
> >
> > The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
> > > able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
> > > PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)
> >
>

[haaljo_haaljo]

Your right, t'is the video he calls boring. And he was using max EV strategy although saw him hesitate a few times. Maybe it was distraction from the girls heard in the video.

I pictured a bunch of Bodog/Bovada models standing behind him.
Shack did like to have his picture taken with them back in the day.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas V" <tringlomane@...> wrote:

I dunno if he really calls the game boring. He definitely calls the video boring on his page, which it generally is as he is pretty much giving us the silent treatment and doesn't hit many big hands/streaks until near the end. But I am curious as to what the girls laughing in his video were playing/doing.

Also, another interesting thing about that video at least to me, is that he mostly played a straightforward max EV strategy for single-line, but there were about a half-dozen plays where I thought an alternative move may have been better for "advancing up the ladder". For example, hold 2789 instead of 279 suited. Or hold deuce only vs. A2T suited.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <haaljo@> wrote:
>
> Here's the link to the wizard's web page on this game:
> http://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/winning-streak/
>
> Shack also has a 6 minute you tube video linked.
>
> T'is a fun video. All you got to do is watch the last couple of minutes because he doesn't get a "winning streak" until the end.
> Shack calls the game boring. Looks frustrating to me.
>
> Watching the video didn't even make my arms start to itch.
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "GilbertA" <gilrus47@> wrote:
> >
> > The game is analyzed on the Wizard of Odds website if you want the return.
> >
> > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vp_wiz" <harry.porter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > As a "rip off", Winning Streak appears to be clumsily executed (relative to the fine tuning with which MultiStrike was implemented).
> > >
> > > WMS has omitted the "Free Ride", which was a device that LED used ensure that player return wasn't diminished as number of levels played (total wager) is increased. (A requirement in some jurisdictions.)
> > >
> > > In fact, I wonder if the WMS Winning Streak is even compliant in such jurisdictions, except for very weak paytables.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is that it's my guess that even if Winning Streak features a strong base paytable such as 9/6 JB, the overall max-wager game return is inferior (rather than stronger) ... perhaps why one shouldn't expect to see strong paytables on a WS machine.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "pyiddy" <pyiddy@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Their new "Winning Streak" VP looks like a rip off of Multi-Strike. (IGT was
> > > > able to introduce Pick-A-Pair even though that is an exact clone of Bally's
> > > > PickEm so I suspect that it will survive legal issues.)
> > >
> >
>

[anterozlv]

Was in the San Diego area recently (June 19th - June 26th). Went early on a Saturday to Viejas which now
boasts a new hotel.

The hotel was positioned on the back land behind the casino and therefore the background noise from the
casino is not heard in the hotel lobby and registration areas. The access to the casino is a good fit and the new with the old and the renovation makes the dining areas (including the buffet) very attractive.

The new membership came with a $10 reward in the machine and a 20% discount on food. A standard breakfast was $3 which was $2.40 with discount. Viejas was the older of the casinos so the "card house"
partitions are still a drawback. One large area is non-smoking with the old corridor leading to the other
areas still gets me turned around.

For a Saturday, the before noon crowd was light to medium. The personnel seemed to be very
outgoing even to the shuttle mini-bus drivers and the greeters at the hotel entrance with bottles of water.

On Monday, we took a early midday look at Barona. For a weekday, it was very crowded and as a general
impression, the ratio of the more graphic slot machines are gaining on the video poker, We had a bit of a problem cashing a check on a long-established cashier's account. They have a new system but somehow
no database of their veteran customers is available. The marketing still has your profile and tier levels
to accommodate comp requests.

Anteroz

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]