vpFREE2 Forums

WinPoker question

#1

I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly. However,
when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak. I have
to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.

Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it shows
an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound right? I
think I've got it set up wrong.

Thanks,
Kevin

#2

The EV feels too high.

By instinct (I insist, this is pure instinct), the strategy is going
to be mostly (or entirely) unchanged - the only part there which might
have been affected could have been a pair of 7 vs. 4 to a flush or 3
to a RF, but the gap between the EV of a low pair and of those hands
is just too big to make the pair of 7s worth considering (the chance
of improving a pair into quads is less than 1 in 1000).

Therefore, the frequency of quad-7s with perfect play is probably
going to be the same as with the regular strategy. I'll guess that the
frequency of all quads if roughly the same, i.e. that the bonus on
quad-7 increases the overall value of quads by approximately 1/26
(1/13*25/50) of their regular value, i.e. close to .23% (1/26 of
5.9%). I wouldn't be surprised by an EV around 99.77%.

I'm sure that the experts on the list will be able to give you some
deeper details (and possibly tell me if and where my reasoning falls
apart).

JBQ

···

On 6/14/05, kbrandon75407 <kbrandon@peoplepc.com> wrote:

I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly. However,
when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak. I have
to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.

Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it shows
an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound right? I
think I've got it set up wrong.

Thanks,
Kevin

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#3

I can't help you with the WinPoker question, but according to
VPTutor, the EV is 99.983% for this game.
Jeff

I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly.

However,

when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak. I

have

to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.

Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it

shows

an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound right?

I

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kbrandon75407" <kbrandon@p...> wrote:

think I've got it set up wrong.

Thanks,
Kevin

#4

I agree the EV does seem too high. If it was accurate, I'm sure
everyone would be there playing it all the time.

Hopefully, someone will come along that understands how to correctly
setup the game in WinPoker so I can see where I went wrong.

Thanks,
Kevin

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...>
wrote:

The EV feels too high.

By instinct (I insist, this is pure instinct), the strategy is

going

to be mostly (or entirely) unchanged - the only part there which

might

have been affected could have been a pair of 7 vs. 4 to a flush or

3

to a RF, but the gap between the EV of a low pair and of those

hands

is just too big to make the pair of 7s worth considering (the

chance

of improving a pair into quads is less than 1 in 1000).

Therefore, the frequency of quad-7s with perfect play is probably
going to be the same as with the regular strategy. I'll guess that

the

frequency of all quads if roughly the same, i.e. that the bonus on
quad-7 increases the overall value of quads by approximately 1/26
(1/13*25/50) of their regular value, i.e. close to .23% (1/26 of
5.9%). I wouldn't be surprised by an EV around 99.77%.

I'm sure that the experts on the list will be able to give you some
deeper details (and possibly tell me if and where my reasoning

falls

apart).

JBQ

> I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
> practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
> shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
> creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly.

However,

> when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak.

I have

> to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.
>
> Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it

shows

> an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound

right? I

···

On 6/14/05, kbrandon75407 <kbrandon@p...> wrote:
> think I've got it set up wrong.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#5

OK, I played with it some more & I think I got it right now. I had
forgotten to remove 7's from the regular quad payout.

Now I get an EV of 99.9835% with a variance of around 19.8.

Thanks,
Kevin\

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jeffcole2003oct" <jeff-cole@c...>
wrote:

I can't help you with the WinPoker question, but according to
VPTutor, the EV is 99.983% for this game.
Jeff

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kbrandon75407" <kbrandon@p...>

wrote:

> I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
> practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database &

it

> shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
> creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly.
However,
> when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak.

I

have
> to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.
>
> Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it
shows
> an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound

right?

···

I
> think I've got it set up wrong.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin

#6

Ack, yeah, I got it wrong. That should have been (1/13*(50-25)/25)),
i.e. adding 100% to the value of quad-7 (I mistakenly used 50%),
resulting in something just a tiny bit below 100%, as you found out.

JBQ

···

On 6/14/05, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@gmail.com> wrote:

The EV feels too high.

By instinct (I insist, this is pure instinct), the strategy is going
to be mostly (or entirely) unchanged - the only part there which might
have been affected could have been a pair of 7 vs. 4 to a flush or 3
to a RF, but the gap between the EV of a low pair and of those hands
is just too big to make the pair of 7s worth considering (the chance
of improving a pair into quads is less than 1 in 1000).

Therefore, the frequency of quad-7s with perfect play is probably
going to be the same as with the regular strategy. I'll guess that the
frequency of all quads if roughly the same, i.e. that the bonus on
quad-7 increases the overall value of quads by approximately 1/26
(1/13*25/50) of their regular value, i.e. close to .23% (1/26 of
5.9%). I wouldn't be surprised by an EV around 99.77%.

I'm sure that the experts on the list will be able to give you some
deeper details (and possibly tell me if and where my reasoning falls
apart).

JBQ

On 6/14/05, kbrandon75407 <kbrandon@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
> practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
> shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
> creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly. However,
> when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak. I have
> to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.
>
> Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it shows
> an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound right? I
> think I've got it set up wrong.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

#7

Is there anywhere that lists the variance of all video poker paytables?

patrick

I agree the EV does seem too high. If it was accurate, I'm sure
everyone would be there playing it all the time.

Hopefully, someone will come along that understands how to correctly
setup the game in WinPoker so I can see where I went wrong.

Thanks,
Kevin

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@g...>
wrote:

The EV feels too high.

By instinct (I insist, this is pure instinct), the strategy is

going

to be mostly (or entirely) unchanged - the only part there which

might

have been affected could have been a pair of 7 vs. 4 to a flush or

3

to a RF, but the gap between the EV of a low pair and of those

hands

is just too big to make the pair of 7s worth considering (the

chance

of improving a pair into quads is less than 1 in 1000).

Therefore, the frequency of quad-7s with perfect play is probably
going to be the same as with the regular strategy. I'll guess that

the

frequency of all quads if roughly the same, i.e. that the bonus on
quad-7 increases the overall value of quads by approximately 1/26
(1/13*25/50) of their regular value, i.e. close to .23% (1/26 of
5.9%). I wouldn't be surprised by an EV around 99.77%.

I'm sure that the experts on the list will be able to give you some
deeper details (and possibly tell me if and where my reasoning

falls

apart).

JBQ

> I'm leaving Sunday morning for my first Vegas trip. I've been
> practicing my VP play with WinPoker. I checked the database & it
> shows the New Frontier has .25 9/6 JoB w/Quad 7 bonus. I tried
> creating this game in WinPoker & thought I did it correctly.

However,

> when I hit a quad 7, it only paid the regular payout for 4oak.

I have

> to say the Help portion of the software wasn't much help.
>
> Anyway, according to the WinPoker analysis of this paytable, it

shows

> an EV of 100.42% with a variance of 19.xxx. Does that sound

right? I

> think I've got it set up wrong.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

···

kbrandon75407 <kbrandon@peoplepc.com> wrote:

On 6/14/05, kbrandon75407 <kbrandon@p...> wrote:

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#8

From looking thru the database, I've found that the following casinos offer bounceback cash:

Arizona Charlie's (both)
Boyd properties MSS, Sam's Town, Stardust
Cannery & Rampart
All Coast properties except Barbary
All Station and Fiesta properties
Casino Montelago
Ellis Island
Hard Rock
LV Hilton
Palms
Tuscany
Venetian

Did I miss any? How do these rate to any of you - do you have some favorites? Are there some that only cater to visitors (non-locals)?

John

···

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#9

Not sure how much you mean by "all", but Cindy Liu's VP analyzer will
get you the variance for any pay table of 7 common games.
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html

The tables at the wizard of odds (and many other places) contain
enough information that you can compute the variance "by hand".

JBQ

···

On 6/14/05, patrick <pat90218@yahoo.com> wrote:

Is there anywhere that lists the variance of all video poker paytables?

patrick

#10

Thank you for the reply, When you mean "by hand" how would I do that?
patrick

Not sure how much you mean by "all", but Cindy Liu's VP analyzer will
get you the variance for any pay table of 7 common games.
http://www.gamblingtools.net/vp/vpanalyzer.html

The tables at the wizard of odds (and many other places) contain
enough information that you can compute the variance "by hand".

JBQ

···

Jean-Baptiste Queru <jbqueru@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6/14/05, patrick <pat90218@yahoo.com> wrote:

Is there anywhere that lists the variance of all video poker paytables?

patrick

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

---------------------------------
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   To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
  
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

The vpFREE Glossary <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Gloss.htm>
lists the variance for a lot of full pay games.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 14 Jun 2005 at 16:15, patrick wrote:

Is there anywhere that lists the variance of all video poker paytables?

#12

The variance is the average of the square of the difference between
each possible outcome and the expected return.

E.g. in 9/6 JoB, ER is 0.99543904, prob of RF is
493512264/19933230517200, prob of SF is 2178883296/19933230517200...
prob of nothing is 10872274993896/19933230517200 according to
http://wizardofodds.com/videopoker/tables/jacksorbetter.html

The variance is
493512264/19933230517200*(800-0.99543904)^2
+2178883296/19933230517200*(50-0.99543904)^2
+...
+10872274993896/19933230517200*(0-0.99543904)^2

I hope I didn't get it wrong this time. If you try it on that example,
the result is supposed to be 19.5147

JBQ

···

On 6/14/05, patrick <pat90218@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thank you for the reply, When you mean "by hand" how would I do that?
patrick

#13

patrick wrote:

Thank you for the reply, When you mean "by hand" how would I do
that?

To supplement JBQ:

For those who are quantitatively inclined, the statistical calculation
is straight forward and requires only basic arithmetic that any
spreadsheet can accomodate (albeit rather tediously, once you find a
source for the expected hand frequencies of a strategy -- JBQ noted a
couple of them). It's not a bad exercise for those who are hard core
DIY's.

However, the investment of a few dollars (about what you might
allocate to see you through 15 min. of quarter Jacks) into software
such as WinPoker or Frugal VP is the route most take here.

Both can handle 99%+ of the paytables that you're likely to throw at
it (although the very most infrequently found games may require the
tailoring of a "user-defined" paytable strucutre).

Frugal VP is by far the more flexible software, adding advanced
features that will allow you to perform ER and variance calculations
for a game using alternate strategies rather that simply the ER
optimal one.

I'm talking cases where you might want to take a stab at a new game
using a strategy with you're familiar (e.g. a run at "NSU" Deuces
using full pay strategy, or DB with Jacks strategy). Also, you can
see just what you sacrifice if you go with a non-optimal play (such as
holding 3RF over a high pair in Jacks, or a high pair over two pair in
DB - to leave open a quad potential).

Each software has it's advantages and disadvantages. I own both and
use each actively.

- Harry

#14

I apologize for calling you the object name, "mister
short coin". Harry Potter, I mean Porter, assured me
you are the real thing and probably really do write
code.

Now with that said, for being such a good sport please
contact Mr Administrator with your snail mail address
so he can send you the vpFREE "SOME GUY HAS ALL MY
ROYALS" T Shirt.
JT

···

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#15

Apology accepted. And I apologize for snapping back at you, that was
not an appropriate reaction.

JBQ

···

On 6/15/05, JT Hughes_iii <jt_hughes_iii@yahoo.com> wrote:

I apologize for calling you the object name, "mister
short coin". Harry Potter, I mean Porter, assured me
you are the real thing and probably really do write
code.

Now with that said, for being such a good sport please
contact Mr Administrator with your snail mail address
so he can send you the vpFREE "SOME GUY HAS ALL MY
ROYALS" T Shirt.
JT

__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html

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Yahoo! Groups Links

#16

Add Silverton,Village Pub

···

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

From looking thru the database, I've found that the following casinos offer bounceback cash:

Arizona Charlie's (both)
Boyd properties MSS, Sam's Town, Stardust
Cannery & Rampart
All Coast properties except Barbary
All Station and Fiesta properties
Casino Montelago
Ellis Island
Hard Rock
LV Hilton
Palms
Tuscany
Venetian

Did I miss any? How do these rate to any of you - do you have some favorites? Are there some that only cater to visitors (non-locals)?

John

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#17

See VP Calculator:
http://www.gamblecraft.com/soft/vpcalc/index.htm

Is there anywhere that lists the variance of all video poker

paytables?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, patrick <pat90218@y...> wrote:

patrick

#18

What are the tiers for bounceback cash at the Silverton and Village Pub? And where is Village Pub? It's not in the database.

Anyone have any personal favorites for bounceback cash? I'm looking to get started so any help is appreciated.

Add Silverton,Village Pub

···

"Elliott L. Shapiro" <elliotts2345@earthlink.net> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

From looking thru the database, I've found that the following casinos offer bounceback cash:

Arizona Charlie's (both)
Boyd properties MSS, Sam's Town, Stardust
Cannery & Rampart
All Coast properties except Barbary
All Station and Fiesta properties
Casino Montelago
Ellis Island
Hard Rock
LV Hilton
Palms
Tuscany
Venetian

Did I miss any? How do these rate to any of you - do you have some favorites? Are there some that only cater to visitors (non-locals)?

John

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#19

Personally, I don't know for either. i "think" that $10,000 coin in
at Silverton will get you 4x $10. Aside from many progressives, they
have full pay koers (Kings or better-4000) 10/7's in 25c and 50c
denominations.
Village pub is owned by Ellis Island and I would assume similar BB.
Game is deuces plus 10 coin, flush = 3 and str flush = 10. They have
many short pays so be careful to play the one that I've listed.

2 locations trhat have them.
Pecos and Flamingo and Sunset road near Renata's, across from Barleys.
with 10 coin 25c, you will earn about 1000 points per hour.

···

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

What are the tiers for bounceback cash at the Silverton and Village Pub? And where is Village Pub? It's not in the database.

Anyone have any personal favorites for bounceback cash? I'm looking to get started so any help is appreciated.

"Elliott L. Shapiro" <elliotts2345@earthlink.net> wrote:
Add Silverton,Village Pub

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

From looking thru the database, I've found that the following casinos offer bounceback cash:

Arizona Charlie's (both)
Boyd properties MSS, Sam's Town, Stardust
Cannery & Rampart
All Coast properties except Barbary
All Station and Fiesta properties
Casino Montelago
Ellis Island
Hard Rock
LV Hilton
Palms
Tuscany
Venetian

Did I miss any? How do these rate to any of you - do you have some favorites? Are there some that only cater to visitors (non-locals)?

John

---------------------------------
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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Yahoo! Groups Links

#20

Correction. I meant 4x $20 at Silverton and at least 4x $15

···

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:02:13 -0700, you wrote:

Personally, I don't know for either. i "think" that $10,000 coin in
at Silverton will get you 4x $10. Aside from many progressives, they
have full pay koers (Kings or better-4000) 10/7's in 25c and 50c
denominations.
Village pub is owned by Ellis Island and I would assume similar BB.
Game is deuces plus 10 coin, flush = 3 and str flush = 10. They have
many short pays so be careful to play the one that I've listed.

2 locations trhat have them.
Pecos and Flamingo and Sunset road near Renata's, across from Barleys.
with 10 coin 25c, you will earn about 1000 points per hour.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:48 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

What are the tiers for bounceback cash at the Silverton and Village Pub? And where is Village Pub? It's not in the database.

Anyone have any personal favorites for bounceback cash? I'm looking to get started so any help is appreciated.

"Elliott L. Shapiro" <elliotts2345@earthlink.net> wrote:
Add Silverton,Village Pub

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:35:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

From looking thru the database, I've found that the following casinos offer bounceback cash:

Arizona Charlie's (both)
Boyd properties MSS, Sam's Town, Stardust
Cannery & Rampart
All Coast properties except Barbary
All Station and Fiesta properties
Casino Montelago
Ellis Island
Hard Rock
LV Hilton
Palms
Tuscany
Venetian

Did I miss any? How do these rate to any of you - do you have some favorites? Are there some that only cater to visitors (non-locals)?

John

---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links