Why you shouldn't quit your day job

[lvndgreek1]

Okay, I'll bite. I'm not going to quit my day job, partly because I enjoy it and partly because it pays well and provides medical benefits.

From: "Mark" <mark_my_words_again@yahoo.com>

Pappy, I know you are just joking, but that is the one big negative I have found
about this group. Any poster who sounds like R.S. is ostracized.

I hope I am not crossing a line here concerning talk about R.S., but my intention here is to respond to the ideas presented in this post.

I'll "save it for later" on my full blown RANT, but just to make a point here: R.S.
does NOT own these ideas, most are common sense that comes from
experience and from the value we put on our spare time.

Common sense???

- chasing comps & promotions can take up a lot of time,

So, when Charlies had the 50 cent deuces, going after 20,000 points to get $250.00 in bounceback, plus the return on the game in about 8 hours each week is not time well spent???

- clipping coupons is a tacky way to save a few dollars

So I should throw away all my $20.00 MonteLago and $30.00 Arizona Charlies cash and $20.00 food coupons, etc. because it's tacky???

- playing full-pay machines is NOT the only way to make a profit playing VP

But, all things like cashback and bounceback being equal, it's a more profitable way.

- being a full-pay "snob" down to the last 0.1% (as in 99.9% return is no
good) is a ridiculous attitude and someday, when all the full-pay machines
are gone, you will be untrained and maybe even incapable of profitting from a
sub-full-pay strategy.

Sub-full-pay by definition is not profitable, but there are many people already taking advantage of negative games at certain casinos by playing so much a month to maximize the mailings.

Check the nearby reply of Jean Scott: "When to walk away" :
- when you hit a jackpot (celebrate!)
- when you reach you win (/loss) goal
Sounds like banned philosophy? Pappy: YOU tell Jean that she sounds like
RS. (Not me!)

I believe the audience this was geared to may be different than just people trying to make a significant profit.

I think the post you replied to, Pappy, was in the vein of "don't be so serious".
I know you agree, I sure do. For those that do a lot of pre-planning, more
power to you. It's all part of the Pre-Play-Time anticipation & ritual that is part
of the excitement of this game.

Not much pre-planning really needs to be done. Just read the promotions columns by Jean Scott, Scot Krause and Bob Dancer each month. Sort through all the mailings you get and determine which place(s) to play each day. If you are doing this for fun and don't care about missing out on a play that may have been more lucrative, then fine. Part of the challenge is to maximize the opportunites available, especially since they do seem to be diminishing.

ndgreek

···

~Mark
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vppappy" <tismurph@h...> wrote:
> Careful, you're beginning to sound like a certain gambler who's
> name shall go unmentioned, but his initials are R.B.
>
> TM & VP
>
> "Life is just one very long gambling session."
> --VP Pappy
>

_________________________________________________________________
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[Mark_P]

Well, I'll provide a reply also, but I DO feel ostracized already.
I didn't mean to sound like RS myself, but I DO slip into that mode
as I try to exhibit alternate viewpoints to the seemingly pervasive
group-think...

(see embedded comments..)
~MARK

--- "nd greek" wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. I'm not going to quit my day job, partly because

I enjoy

it and partly because it pays well and provides medical benefits.

>From: "Mark" <mark_my_words_again@y...>
>
>Pappy, I know you are just joking, but that is the one big

negative I have

>found
>about this group. Any poster who sounds like R.S. is ostracized.

I hope I am not crossing a line here concerning talk about R.S.,

but my

intention here is to respond to the ideas presented in this post.

>
>I'll "save it for later" on my full blown RANT, but just to make a

point

>here: R.S.
>does NOT own these ideas, most are common sense that comes from
>experience and from the value we put on our spare time.

Common sense???

Mark's retort: My common sense is that if I have a profit in my
pocket, I'm winning. No matter what the EV of the VP game is. No
matter how perfect or how long I've played it.
Win or lose, some players will play long hours on a positive
expectation game, with the faith (in math & in gurus) that perfect
play will net them $XX per hour, some day. That is not common sense
to me.
Your common sense sounds like it's based on your experiences. That's
the best.

> - chasing comps & promotions can take up a lot of time,

So, when Charlies had the 50 cent deuces, going after 20,000 points

to get

$250.00 in bounceback, plus the return on the game in about 8 hours

each

week is not time well spent???

Mark sez: If you achieved your goal, then it was time well spent. If
you lost money, felt tied to a machine, or had no fun in the chase,
hey, you know what it was worth to you. It just sopunded like a lot
of people spend a lot of non-VP gaming time getting ready,
researching casino rules, arguing about it on vpFree to each his
own, we agree I think..

> - clipping coupons is a tacky way to save a few dollars

So I should throw away all my $20.00 MonteLago and $30.00 Arizona

Charlies

cash and $20.00 food coupons, etc. because it's tacky???

Mark's comeback: Tacky was perhaps offensive, sorry! Did you stand in
line to cash them? I was thinking of 2-for-1 buffet coupons, but I am
naive about all the different promotions. Don't throw them away -
send them to me, we'll call it even for my comments which you are
mistaking for personal advice.

> - playing full-pay machines is NOT the only way to make a

profit playing

>VP

But, all things like cashback and bounceback being equal, it's a

more

profitable way.

MARK replies: For some people I'm sure you are correct. In theory,
hard to argue the math. Yet, Reality = Results for me. I admire the
stamina and faith of those who play hundreds of hours in the red in
between Royals, but I wonder if they are having fun along the Path to
Profitability? Probability can bankrupt those on the wrong half of
the bell curve.

> - being a full-pay "snob" down to the last 0.1% (as in 99.9%

return is

>no
>good) is a ridiculous attitude and someday, when all the full-pay

machines

>are gone, you will be untrained and maybe even incapable of

profitting from

>a
>sub-full-pay strategy.

Sub-full-pay by definition is not profitable, but there are many

people

already taking advantage of negative games at certain casinos by

playing so

much a month to maximize the mailings.

Mark asks: There's that pervasive mind-set: "Sub-full-pay is not
profitable". UGH! BAH! The profit vs.Hands played graph is a STEP-
function, not a smooth curve. You are UP immediately after a high-
paying hand puts you in the black. (remainder of rant saved for
later...)

So they profit due to mailings? I thought at first this was an
acknowledgement of my point, but it sounds like acknowledgement of
more hard work for slim % EV promos/coupons/cashback/bounceback. Ugh.
Maybe the playing time is fun, but it sounds like drudgery.

>
>Check the nearby reply of Jean Scott: "When to walk away" :
> - when you hit a jackpot (celebrate!)
> - when you reach you win (/loss) goal
>Sounds like banned philosophy? Pappy: YOU tell Jean that she

sounds like

>RS. (Not me!)

I believe the audience this was geared to may be different than

just people

trying to make a significant profit.

Mark wonders: Do you have HOURS goal in your play? and/or POINT goals?
You don't have $$ WIN or PROFIT goals?

>
>I think the post you replied to, Pappy, was in the vein of "don't

be so

>serious".
>I know you agree, I sure do. For those that do a lot of pre-

planning,

>more
>power to you. It's all part of the Pre-Play-Time anticipation &

ritual

>that is part
>of the excitement of this game.

Not much pre-planning really needs to be done. Just read the

promotions

columns by Jean Scott, Scot Krause and Bob Dancer each month. Sort

through

all the mailings you get and determine which place(s) to play each

day. If

you are doing this for fun and don't care about missing out on a

play that

may have been more lucrative, then fine. Part of the challenge is

to

maximize the opportunites available, especially since they do seem

to be

diminishing.

Sounds like you've found the way to save a lot of time. I'm out of
my element and I've learned that there are many ways to play VP for
fun and for profit. Not for anyone to dictate the Rules for someone
else to play. Suggestions only.

ndgreek

Thanks for the exchange of VIEWPOINTS, nd!!

[RandomStu]

"Mark" <mark_my_words_again@y...> wrote:

Your common sense sounds like it's based on your experiences.
That's the best.

A key point to this issue is that learning from one's own experience
is NOT always the best. Sometimes, drawing conclusions based chiefly
on one's own experience has very little value.

I used to deal blackjack. I'd meet people who had years of experience
of dealing BJ full time. They'd give the players advice, thinking
that their endless hours of watching the game gave them a superior
understanding. The players would often believe the dealers' advice
for the same reason.

They were both wrong. It's perfectly possible, perfectly likely, to
deal or play or watch BJ for decades & not understand the game.
Someone with absolutely zero experience in playing BJ, but who'd
spent maybe an hour of careful study of computer-generated charts
would be a far far better player than someone who relied on decades
of "experience."

Video poker of course is the same way. You can't extrapolate from
other life situations, since most of life involves issues you must
learn from experience, not from books or computers. VP etc is
different, since you *can* learn everything you need to know from a
book.

When I dealt BJ, I found it ironic that players would ask me what the
secret of the game is, & I'd tell them that they could buy a book (or
a strategy card) for a couple bucks at most that'd give them all the
answers. And they wouldn't do it.

People will read books about how to have successful human
relationships, how to succeed at business, how to find God, etc, etc,
all things that truly require life experience, with limitted help
from book learning. But in this special case of VP or BJ etc, little
endeavors where you really *can* learn it all from a book... people
waste their time trying to learn from experience instead.

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

[Mark_P]

I agree with you Stu - very perceptive summary of the Thread and I'm
with you. Your analogy to how folks rely on "books" for all the Wrong
subjects is so true, it made me laugh out loud.

Even tho' I know now and knew back when it happened that holding A-T
suited was NOT on the strategy sheet, I held it anyways and got my
first ever Royal. Yes, it was not by the book. Do I still hold it
today? Not always. Does this "special play" cost me a lot of money? I
doubt it, I rarely play above a $1 coin and when I do I "tighten up",
& stick more to the sheet. But I'm ahead on this Hold until I play
that hand 800 times for no paying result on quarters. That's still a
long ways away.

I have a friend who likes to hold 7's when 7's are "running." (What
the **??) I quickly gave up trying to convince him not to do this. He
is smart enough to have learned the math and he KNOWS math and RNG
theory tell him he's wrong, but that's his "thing".

It's like another friend who has the costly habit of not protecting
his cards in live card games. Most of us who play give him one
warning or piece of advice to "hold your cards back" and any views he
gives afterwards are free. Free of guilt for the viewer. Same with
VP: tell someone the theory says you're wrong. Fine. carry on. Then,
think of their misplays as a gift to the casino that support the
machine making a profit for the casino, ensuring it will stay for all
to play longer.

I think that is the main rub I have: RS "gives" the reader the notion
that going off the mathematically perfect cheat sheet is OK. This is
blasphemy to math purists, the advantage players, who strive for
perfect strategy. RS believes a player's own personal "special plays"
don't cost him much over the short term and might even give the
player an additional jackpot or mini-jackpot that he can bank if he
knows when to quit. Here the discussion diverts to a religious
discussion of short term vs. long term and we have pretty much all
agreed NOT to start THAT again. I think we understand both sides of
this argument even if we disagree how or if to apply it. No sense
replaying the argument.

The best way to appease the purists is to say, (and I say now:) "I
understand The Theory, and it's my money so I will choose my own
practical application." If I want to keep a bit of voodoo in my
gambling I will, purists can save their breath (and typing). I give
the purists permission to trust the RNG and I applaud their effort to
mimic its hardwired perfection. Maybe we'll bump into each other
while making deposits at the bank: we'll smile and say "Good Luck":
whether or not either of us believes in luck. And maybe we will
someday see "The Long Term". <cut to scenes from Monty Python's
Quest for the Holy Grail>

Yeeee Haaaa.

  ~MARK P.

"Mark" <mark_my_words_again@y...> wrote:
> Your common sense sounds like it's based on your experiences.
> That's the best.

A key point to this issue is that learning from one's own

experience

is NOT always the best. Sometimes, drawing conclusions based

chiefly

on one's own experience has very little value.

I used to deal blackjack. I'd meet people who had years of

experience

of dealing BJ full time. They'd give the players advice, thinking
that their endless hours of watching the game gave them a superior
understanding. The players would often believe the dealers' advice
for the same reason.

They were both wrong. It's perfectly possible, perfectly likely, to
deal or play or watch BJ for decades & not understand the game.
Someone with absolutely zero experience in playing BJ, but who'd
spent maybe an hour of careful study of computer-generated charts
would be a far far better player than someone who relied on decades
of "experience."

Video poker of course is the same way. You can't extrapolate from
other life situations, since most of life involves issues you must
learn from experience, not from books or computers. VP etc is
different, since you *can* learn everything you need to know from a
book.

When I dealt BJ, I found it ironic that players would ask me what

the

secret of the game is, & I'd tell them that they could buy a book

(or

a strategy card) for a couple bucks at most that'd give them all

the

answers. And they wouldn't do it.

People will read books about how to have successful human
relationships, how to succeed at business, how to find God, etc,

etc,

all things that truly require life experience, with limitted help
from book learning. But in this special case of VP or BJ etc,

little

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@c...> wrote:

endeavors where you really *can* learn it all from a book... people
waste their time trying to learn from experience instead.

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@c...
http://home.comcast.net/~sresnick2/mypage.htm