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Why offer positive games?

Nita wrote:

So why should they offer full pay games that give the player an edge?

I'm new to this, but I couldn't resist giving my theory. I
believe casinos offer "positive" games for only one reason:
they think that they will make a profit from them. (This is
also why they offer inexpensive buffets, put on shows and have
big neon signs.) If the casino management didn't believe
there was a profit to be made, those machines would vanish in
an instant. From what I gather such machines have become
less prevalent in recent years, but they still exist. Could
it be that the casinos want the general public to believe that
there are machines in the casino that can be beat? Perhaps
the odds that most gamblers can go for several hours without
making any mathematical errors while enjoying free drinks from
scantily clad cocktail waitresses aren't so good after all.
If I was doing casino marketing I would want to see the idea
of "professional" video poker playing widely promoted, but I
would make sure there were only a few positive machines on
site. In their place I would put lots of machines like the
"4 card" drawing units which seem to be little more than slot
machines disguised as VP. Yes, a few smart and experienced
pros would walk away with some loot, but plenty more folks
would walk out with less than they walked in with.

Jim H.

Jim

I think your reasoning is very sound and that is
exactly what most casinos did in the past. There are
still a few casinos that do this but as the MBA types
have taken the decision making away from the casino
execs who understand gambling, this way of thinking is
becoming rarer.
A group like this will have a good percentage of
members who can play VP to maximine effect but put 99%
of Vegas visitors on a full pay machine and the casino
still has a good size edge.
I am much more familar with blackjack, a game where
the appeal of its being beatable helps it's popularity
greatly. Though the average blackjack player will
claim to know basic strategy, my experience tells me
that perhaps 1% or less actually play it perfectly,
and the house still has an edge unless you count,
shuffle track or hole card. Of that 1% or so of
perfect basic strategy players, perhaps a few percent
are counters who are proficient enough to actually
beat the game. To protect the casino from these
counters and keep the game good requires the hiring of
expert people and those MBA types would rather worsen
the rules and buy machines like Mindplay that promise
to work but do not. So they basically protect their
tables with bad games and do the same thing with VP.
Places like Wynn still offer some good games and have
hired top people who understand their games. Places
like Harrah's have traditionally protected their games
with poorly trained people but bad rules for the
players.

The other thing that comes into play is that the vast
majority of Vegas tourists have little clue about what
is good or bad and the casinos know this. That is why
in most large casinos you will find the worst games
near the entrance and the better games kind of hidden
towards the back.

Victoria

test'; ">

Hey Jim,
  
  Thanks for your theory . I am fairly new to this also. I, as a player, certainly hope the positive games hang on and more come for our sake ! It just seems funny to me from a business point of view that the casino would offer such games when it doesn't seem they have to or even need to for that matter. If they don't want the small % of skilled players banging away at their machines, why offer positive games ? The majority of players just play and never factor in the paytables or whether the game is positive or negative. To most players , 10/6 or 6/5 mean nothing . On whatever machines..... they play using the wrong strategy. So... regardless if the machine is positive or negative they are going to take this players money and most will keep coming back for more punishment every chance they get. Therefore, if they frown on the skilled/pro players as they do card counters in BJ , what's the point in having positive machines to attract the skilled
players ? If they just want a bunch of average Joe's as their players, he doesn't know or care if the machine is positive or negative . Isn't this the ideal customer from the casino's point of view ? If they label you as a advantage player and if your successful at winning much on a regular basis , will they then not label you as an unwelcomed guest and ban you from their casino ?
  
  I think you are right that they what to be able to advertise that they have machines that are beatable! But they don't really want the few skilled/advantage players playing them ! If my understanding is correct, if you do very well ......YOU WILL NO LONGER BE WELCOMED BACK .
  
  Good luck !
  
  Nita

matmail2@earthlink.net wrote: Nita wrote:
  
  >So why should they offer full pay games that give the player an edge?
  
  I'm new to this, but I couldn't resist giving my theory. I
  believe casinos offer "positive" games for only one reason:
  they think that they will make a profit from them. (This is
  also why they offer inexpensive buffets, put on shows and have
  big neon signs.) If the casino management didn't believe
  there was a profit to be made, those machines would vanish in
  an instant. From what I gather such machines have become
  less prevalent in recent years, but they still exist. Could
  it be that the casinos want the general public to believe that
  there are machines in the casino that can be beat? Perhaps
  the odds that most gamblers can go for several hours without
  making any mathematical errors while enjoying free drinks from
  scantily clad cocktail waitresses aren't so good after all.
  If I was doing casino marketing I would want to see the idea
  of "professional" video poker playing widely promoted, but I
  would make sure there were only a few positive machines on
  site. In their place I would put lots of machines like the
  "4 card" drawing units which seem to be little more than slot
  machines disguised as VP. Yes, a few smart and experienced
  pros would walk away with some loot, but plenty more folks
  would walk out with less than they walked in with.
  
  Jim H.
  
    vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
  
          SPONSORED LINKS
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anita walker wrote:

It just seems funny to me from a business point of view that the
casino would offer such games when it doesn't seem they have to or
even need to for that matter. If they don't want the small % of
skilled players banging away at their machines, why offer positive
games? ...

I can't say that this factors into casino strategy but, in general,
there's a certain set of consumers in any market who, when offered a
good value on a product will consume, more of it ... to an extent at
which the total $ that they allocate to consumption of that product is
increased.

I'm willing to be that there are some players here who are profitable
to the casino and indulge in far greater play when offered strong
games than if only poor plays were available.

Further, there are going to be players who a sufficiently informed to
seek out a good game but aren't necessarily skilled enough to play it
well. The offer of a limited number of good games may attract these
players away from other casinos and add to the bottom line. However,
when you put a good game on the floor, you risk that players will be
drawn away from poorer games, with a dilution of profit.

The greater risk is that some players are savvy enough to combine good
promotions with strong plays so that, even if profitable, their profit
margin isn't sufficiently strong to make them attractive prospects to
the casino.

Every business suffers a segment of customers who are more expensive
to serve than is justified by the revenue produced and firms struggle
with how to week these customers out without alienating the profitable
ones.

It's clear that many casinos feel challenged in addressing these
variables and good games regularly come and go.

- Harry

"..Further, there are going to be players who are sufficiently informed to
seek out a good game but aren't necessarily skilled enough to play it
well...."

Excellent point. I have seen many times VP players know that they want to play VP with full
pay tables, however how they play them, leaves a lot to be desired.

Kinda knowing what you really like to eat and what the ingredients are, but not how to make
it.

That's why some casinos and some restaurants do real well!

Anita,

This requires a great deal of explanation, but in simple terms if Sam
Walton had thought like you did he probably would have lost his one
store in Arkansas. Also, why do you think Best Buy offers at least 1
item below cost each week.

Don't forget, a casino is a retail operation. Just because it sells
intangibles doesn't mean the business model doesn't apply. It does.

And the assumption you screamed does not fit reality in most cases.
Very few casinos take action against VP players and never at low
volumes. Too often the posts in this forum do not accurately reflect
real conditions. As Dancer pointed out, there are still lots of
positive plays, more as you go down in denomination. The sky is not falling.

B

···

At 12:51 AM 3/7/2006, you wrote:

Hey Jim,

  Thanks for your theory . I am fairly new to this also. I, as
a player, certainly hope the positive games hang on and more
come for our sake ! It just seems funny to me from a business
point of view that the casino would offer such games when it
doesn't seem they have to or even need to for that matter. If
they don't want the small % of skilled players banging away at
their machines, why offer positive games ? The majority of
players just play and never factor in the paytables or whether the
game is positive or negative. To most players , 10/6 or 6/5 mean
nothing . On whatever machines..... they play using the wrong
strategy. So... regardless if the machine is positive or negative
they are going to take this players money and most will keep
coming back for more punishment every chance they get. Therefore,
if they frown on the skilled/pro players as they do card
counters in BJ , what's the point in having positive machines to
attract the skilled
players ? If they just want a bunch of average Joe's as their
players, he doesn't know or care if the machine is positive or
negative . Isn't this the ideal customer from the casino's point
of view ? If they label you as a advantage player and if your
successful at winning much on a regular basis , will they then
not label you as an unwelcomed guest and ban you from their casino ?

  I think you are right that they what to be able to advertise
that they have machines that are beatable! But they don't really
want the few skilled/advantage players playing them ! If
my understanding is correct, if you do very well ......YOU WILL NO
LONGER BE WELCOMED BACK .

  Good luck !

  Nita

matmail2@earthlink.net wrote: Nita wrote:

  >So why should they offer full pay games that give the player an edge?

  I'm new to this, but I couldn't resist giving my theory. I
  believe casinos offer "positive" games for only one reason:
  they think that they will make a profit from them. (This is
  also why they offer inexpensive buffets, put on shows and have
  big neon signs.) If the casino management didn't believe
  there was a profit to be made, those machines would vanish in
  an instant. From what I gather such machines have become
  less prevalent in recent years, but they still exist. Could
  it be that the casinos want the general public to believe that
  there are machines in the casino that can be beat? Perhaps
  the odds that most gamblers can go for several hours without
  making any mathematical errors while enjoying free drinks from
  scantily clad cocktail waitresses aren't so good after all.
  If I was doing casino marketing I would want to see the idea
  of "professional" video poker playing widely promoted, but I
  would make sure there were only a few positive machines on
  site. In their place I would put lots of machines like the
  "4 card" drawing units which seem to be little more than slot
  machines disguised as VP. Yes, a few smart and experienced
  pros would walk away with some loot, but plenty more folks
  would walk out with less than they walked in with.

  Jim H.

    vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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Hi Harry ,
  
  Thanks for sharing your thoughts ! As always, nicely presented.
  
  Aren't BJ and VP the only games offered where the player has a chance to gain a slight edge over the house ? I certainly consider card counting a skill that only FEW can do successfully . However, doesn't the casino go to great lengths to curtail the card counters ? They seem to take measures to prevent the player from gaining any edge over the house in all the other games, yet let a FPDW sit on the floor ? Back to... GOOD advertisement for the casino . I still contend that their bottom line would suffer little, if any, at all if the positive games were gone. Being the nation of gamblers that we are, I contend we are going to gamble (good or bad games) and the casino, by nature, will always draw more than it's share of consumers to be very profitable. Afterall, their product is in great demand. . Not implying that I have any problem with that .
  
  Just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions. I do appreciate yours . Thanks again.
  
  Nita
  
  > It just seems funny to me from a business point of view that the
  > casino would offer such games when it doesn't seem they have to or
  > even need to for that matter. If they don't want the small % of
  > skilled players banging away at their machines, why offer positive
  > games? ...
  
  I can't say that this factors into casino strategy but, in general,
  there's a certain set of consumers in any market who, when offered a
  good value on a product will consume, more of it ... to an extent at
  which the total $ that they allocate to consumption of that product is
  increased.
  
  I'm willing to be that there are some players here who are profitable
  to the casino and indulge in far greater play when offered strong
  games than if only poor plays were available.
  
  Further, there are going to be players who a sufficiently informed to
  seek out a good game but aren't necessarily skilled enough to play it
  well. The offer of a limited number of good games may attract these
  players away from other casinos and add to the bottom line. However,
  when you put a good game on the floor, you risk that players will be
  drawn away from poorer games, with a dilution of profit.
  
  The greater risk is that some players are savvy enough to combine good
  promotions with strong plays so that, even if profitable, their profit
  margin isn't sufficiently strong to make them attractive prospects to
  the casino.
  
  Every business suffers a segment of customers who are more expensive
  to serve than is justified by the revenue produced and firms struggle
  with how to week these customers out without alienating the profitable
  ones.
  
  It's clear that many casinos feel challenged in addressing these
  variables and good games regularly come and go.
  
  - Harry
  
    vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
  
          SPONSORED LINKS
                                                        Online gambling Outdoor recreation Recreation software Gambling

···

Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote: anita walker wrote:
        
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Thank you kindly, Mr. Coleman.
  
  FYI, I own two businesses. Both of which have been very successful and continue to be successful.
  
  I am fully aware of loss leaders. I factored that into my post suggesting that being able to advertise full pay was good for bringing players into the casino.
  
  Nita

Bill Coleman <vphobby2@cox.net> wrote: Anita,
  
  This requires a great deal of explanation, but in simple terms if Sam
  Walton had thought like you did he probably would have lost his one
  store in Arkansas. Also, why do you think Best Buy offers at least 1
  item below cost each week.
  
  Don't forget, a casino is a retail operation. Just because it sells
  intangibles doesn't mean the business model doesn't apply. It does.
  
  And the assumption you screamed does not fit reality in most cases.
  Very few casinos take action against VP players and never at low
  volumes. Too often the posts in this forum do not accurately reflect
  real conditions. As Dancer pointed out, there are still lots of
  positive plays, more as you go down in denomination. The sky is not falling.
  
  B

···

At 12:51 AM 3/7/2006, you wrote:
  >Hey Jim,
  >
  > Thanks for your theory . I am fairly new to this also. I, as
  > a player, certainly hope the positive games hang on and more
  > come for our sake ! It just seems funny to me from a business
  > point of view that the casino would offer such games when it
  > doesn't seem they have to or even need to for that matter. If
  > they don't want the small % of skilled players banging away at
  > their machines, why offer positive games ? The majority of
  > players just play and never factor in the paytables or whether the
  > game is positive or negative. To most players , 10/6 or 6/5 mean
  > nothing . On whatever machines..... they play using the wrong
  > strategy. So... regardless if the machine is positive or negative
  > they are going to take this players money and most will keep
  > coming back for more punishment every chance they get. Therefore,
  > if they frown on the skilled/pro players as they do card
  > counters in BJ , what's the point in having positive machines to
  > attract the skilled
  > players ? If they just want a bunch of average Joe's as their
  > players, he doesn't know or care if the machine is positive or
  > negative . Isn't this the ideal customer from the casino's point
  > of view ? If they label you as a advantage player and if your
  > successful at winning much on a regular basis , will they then
  > not label you as an unwelcomed guest and ban you from their casino ?
  >
  > I think you are right that they what to be able to advertise
  > that they have machines that are beatable! But they don't really
  > want the few skilled/advantage players playing them ! If
  > my understanding is correct, if you do very well ......YOU WILL NO
  > LONGER BE WELCOMED BACK .
  >
  > Good luck !
  >
  > Nita
  >
  >matmail2@earthlink.net wrote: Nita wrote:
  >
  > >So why should they offer full pay games that give the player an edge?
  >
  > I'm new to this, but I couldn't resist giving my theory. I
  > believe casinos offer "positive" games for only one reason:
  > they think that they will make a profit from them. (This is
  > also why they offer inexpensive buffets, put on shows and have
  > big neon signs.) If the casino management didn't believe
  > there was a profit to be made, those machines would vanish in
  > an instant. From what I gather such machines have become
  > less prevalent in recent years, but they still exist. Could
  > it be that the casinos want the general public to believe that
  > there are machines in the casino that can be beat? Perhaps
  > the odds that most gamblers can go for several hours without
  > making any mathematical errors while enjoying free drinks from
  > scantily clad cocktail waitresses aren't so good after all.
  > If I was doing casino marketing I would want to see the idea
  > of "professional" video poker playing widely promoted, but I
  > would make sure there were only a few positive machines on
  > site. In their place I would put lots of machines like the
  > "4 card" drawing units which seem to be little more than slot
  > machines disguised as VP. Yes, a few smart and experienced
  > pros would walk away with some loot, but plenty more folks
  > would walk out with less than they walked in with.
  >
  > Jim H.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
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  >
  >
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1. With VP you know your maximum loss. With BJ, the sky's the limit.
Which would you control?

2. Again, you are only looking at the individual machines. In a
competitive environment if the guy next door is offering loose
machines and you aren't your EBITDA will suffer greatly.

I wish I had time to go into these points in detail.

···

At 06:34 PM 3/7/2006, you wrote:

Hi Harry ,

  Thanks for sharing your thoughts ! As always, nicely presented.

  Aren't BJ and VP the only games offered where the player has a
chance to gain a slight edge over the house ? I
certainly consider card counting a skill that only FEW can do
successfully . However, doesn't the casino go to great lengths to
curtail the card counters ? They seem to take measures to
prevent the player from gaining any edge over the house in all
the other games, yet let a FPDW sit on the floor ? Back
to... GOOD advertisement for the casino . I still contend
that their bottom line would suffer little, if any, at all if the
positive games were gone. Being the nation of gamblers that we
are, I contend we are going to gamble (good or bad games) and the
casino, by nature, will always draw more than it's share of
consumers to be very profitable. Afterall, their product is in
great demand. . Not implying that I have any problem with that .

  Just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions. I
do appreciate yours . Thanks again.

  Nita

Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote: anita walker wrote:
  > It just seems funny to me from a business point of view that the
  > casino would offer such games when it doesn't seem they have to or
  > even need to for that matter. If they don't want the small % of
  > skilled players banging away at their machines, why offer positive
  > games? ...

  I can't say that this factors into casino strategy but, in general,
  there's a certain set of consumers in any market who, when offered a
  good value on a product will consume, more of it ... to an extent at
  which the total $ that they allocate to consumption of that product is
  increased.

  I'm willing to be that there are some players here who are profitable
  to the casino and indulge in far greater play when offered strong
  games than if only poor plays were available.

  Further, there are going to be players who a sufficiently informed to
  seek out a good game but aren't necessarily skilled enough to play it
  well. The offer of a limited number of good games may attract these
  players away from other casinos and add to the bottom line. However,
  when you put a good game on the floor, you risk that players will be
  drawn away from poorer games, with a dilution of profit.

  The greater risk is that some players are savvy enough to combine good
  promotions with strong plays so that, even if profitable, their profit
  margin isn't sufficiently strong to make them attractive prospects to
  the casino.

  Every business suffers a segment of customers who are more expensive
  to serve than is justified by the revenue produced and firms struggle
  with how to week these customers out without alienating the profitable
  ones.

  It's clear that many casinos feel challenged in addressing these
  variables and good games regularly come and go.

  - Harry

    vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

          SPONSORED LINKS
                                                        Online
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recreation Recreation
software
Gambling

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anita walker wrote:

Aren't BJ and VP the only games offered where the player has a
chance to gain a slight edge over the house? I certainly
consider card counting a skill that only FEW can do successfully.
However, doesn't the casino go to great lengths to curtail the
card counters? They seem to take measures to prevent the player
from gaining any edge over the house in all the other games, yet
let a FPDW sit on the floor?

A lot of variables involved here ...

If you're talking about small fry quarter stuff (which is what we're
pretty much talking about when looking at FPDW), the equivalent BJ
play (say an average bet of around $10) doesn't get much heat (ok, so
maybe it's a different story at Barbary Coast :wink:

At higher stakes, there's one thing that distinguishes an advantage BJ
player from a vp one ... the BJ player is going to jack up their bet
significantly when the deck count is favorable. It takes a LOT of
finesse to avoid that flag -- particularly if mid-shoe entry is
restricted.

Advantage vp play has few immediate flags (other than presented by the
most awkward of players, who likely present no threat in actuality).
You might, over time, look for very regular, active play and a play
win/loss that is considerably more favorable than average. But, if a
casino were aggressive in weeding out players who fit that profile,
it's a strong bet that they'd likely err in discrimination and end up
cutting out more play favorable to the casino than unfavorable.

Most advantage play is on such a thin edge that it only takes the
inaccurate cut of a few profitable players to negate any benefit to
the exercise. Plus, most other players get wary of a casino when
adverse actions by the casino are in the wind (whether they're
targeted or not) and can be encouraged to move desirable action elsewhere.

When you consider that video poker, as a whole, is more profitable to
the casinos than blackjack - given it's thinner hold - casinos make
the right decision in restraining themselves and dealing with the vp
situation through inventory decisions made on a big-picture basis.

Back to... GOOD advertisement for the casino. I still contend
that their bottom line would suffer little, if any, at all if the
positive games were gone.

I get where you're coming from on this. Certainly there are a good
number of casinos that side with your sentiment - consider Coast.
However, I see strong arguments why a limited number of strong plays
are profitable for a casino.

I firmly believe that the majority of "advantage" players are
profitable to the casino. Call it my belief in human nature. You
have some players who will come into a casino that has very strong vp
and will play a diverse number of games, including those of less
attractive ER's.

In addition to this consideration, you have the impact of players
being willing to allocate more of their budget to gambling if they're
getting good value for the money -- the same as with most any other
products. This can be a particularly effective strategy when it comes
to a semi-skilled player who's giving up at least 1%-2% theo return
due to strategy errors.

That said, an inventory of good games presents the hazard of
attracting poorly profitable players to the casino (relative to the
costs of hosting their play). This has been compared by others to the
threat that some consumers pose on the Wal-Marts (and other low margin
businesses) of the world.

Business models exist to deal with such consumers and you can look for
casinos to adopt them more aggressively -- particularly once IS is/are
in place that can economically identify those consumers with an
efficiency that justifies the effort. The response won't necessarily
be to eject such players, but to effectively manage what's offered to
them. It would be fair to suggest that Harrah's is at the forefront
of this venture, although there's little question it's been awkwardly
handled in many respects.

It's my expectation that well within 5 years we'll look back on the
last 10 years as being the halcyon years of vp.

- Harry

From Merriam-Webster....

halcyon: a bird identified with the kingfisher. (also...peaceful, calm, happy, golden,
prosperous and affluent)

Take your pick...

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

It's my expectation that well within 5 years we'll look back on the
last 10 years as being the halcyon years of vp.

- Harry

Harry ... Agree on 8 (till mid 2004) of the last 10 years, but disagree on the last 2 years. I expect VP to stabilize around today's conditions especially with the influx of new casinos (more competition). By the way, nice use of a word I haven't see for years. :slight_smile:
Bob
Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote: >It's my expectation that well within 5 years we'll look back on the last 10 years as being the halcyon >years of vp.

- Harry

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