* rockofjello333 <rockofjello333@yahoo.com> [2004-06-05 13:04]:
4. Go to a Coast property and---no, scratch that. Orleans, Gold
Coast, etc. STILL don't deserve your, or my, business. And the vast
majority of the VP sucks anyway.
What did I miss here.. what happened at Orleans?
The wholesale destruction of positive VP, despite vehement pleas and
anguished protests, over the course of a few months last year,
culminating in the VP deserts that are Coast Casinos today.*
The cynical marketing of Coast's VP offerings subsequent to the
massacre as being somehow BETTER or IMPROVED, as in "more 99%+ games
than anywhere else in Vegas!!" or some such tommyrot.
The targeting and discrimination of ALL VP players who played only
advantage VP, and the cancelling of their slot club accounts (with
loss of points accrued).
The new policy of ABSOLUTE refusal to write "discretionary comps".
Refusal (reported in several places, as well as my own experience) to
extend ANY room offers to VP players (not even casino rate in the
middle of the week).
All this coupled with an attitude that the skilled local players are
unworthy scum, not fit to darken the Coast casino doors. And that goes
for non-sucker visitors, too.
This policy has hurt them, particularly Gold Coast losing business to
the Palms, but also Suncoast losing business to the Cannery and
Rampart (and Santa Fe); but they get enough penny game and Bingo
players in the front door to keep the joints alive, Still, GC is a
desert on weekdays. It used to be crowded ALL the time.
Bottom line: They hate us, and they've made sure we know it. Why,
then, should we favor them with our presence?
*Yes, I know there are two .25 10/7 DB in the men's room behind the
snack bar. Whatever. In November 2002 I counted 133 .25 FPDW machines
at the Gold Coast. How many do you suppose there are now?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Justin Gombos <mindfuq@z...> wrote:
* rockofjello333 <rockofjello333@y...> [2004-06-05 13:04]:
> 4. Go to a Coast property and---no, scratch that. Orleans, Gold
> Coast, etc. STILL don't deserve your, or my, business. And the vast
> majority of the VP sucks anyway.What did I miss here.. what happened at Orleans?
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:
*Yes, I know there are two .25 10/7 DB in the men's room behind the
snack bar. Whatever. In November 2002 I counted 133 .25 FPDW
machines
at the Gold Coast. How many do you suppose there are now?
---------------------
Ahh...the Disappearance of those Full Pay machines...
Didn't all this get started (right after the 9/11 attack) when Travel
Channel started showing Anthony Curtis, Bob Dancer, and Jean Scott
pointing out to everybody on national tv which vp machines give the
players advantage over the casinos? (such as the FPDW, 10/7 DB, 10/6
DDB, etc)
At least, that's how I remember it. After seeing these shows a few
times on the Travel channel, I started seeing posts at vpfree
about "vp machines MIA (missing in action) or disappearing. And I'm
almost sure that most people working in the casinos have seen the
same shows. Put yourself into their shoes: you are in the casino
business trying to make money and don't care much if a few or some
people knows which machines return 100% or more, now you see this
thing on tv telling everyone which machines they are --- what do you
do? Add more of these Full-Pay machines, take them out, or talk to
the makers like IGT and ask for modifications on the programs to make
them work still randomly but, in favor of the casinos more?
I just wish that in the future, the vp gurus/experts getting on these
tv specials won't think of revealing every details on "good" machines
if any new good ones will ever show up again.
* gilbert_616 <gilbert_616@yahoo.com> [2004-06-07 13:23]:
Put yourself into their shoes: you are in the casino business trying
to make money and don't care much if a few or some people knows
which machines return 100% or more, now you see this thing on tv
telling everyone which machines they are --- what do you do? Add
more of these Full-Pay machines, take them out,
I'm a rookie here, but isn't it true that the player needs to adhere
to a basic strategy table in order to have an expectation > 100%? If
media hype points out all the *potentially* 100%+ returning machines,
does it not benefit the casino if it brings lots of action from
players who don't know the basic strategy? I assume average players
will do things like hold a 3 card straight, or 3 to a flush, at times
when it does not make sense to.
Or is the return high enough that average play is positive? I'm
doubtful, because if average play were positive on these machines, the
casinos would be fools to deploy them.
I just wish that in the future, the vp gurus/experts getting on
these tv specials won't think of revealing every details on "good"
machines if any new good ones will ever show up again.
Or does this benefit the casino, because those who see the tv specials
don't know they still need a degree of skill (IOW: an accurate
strategy table)? If it benefits the casino, then the machine stays,
which is in your interest.
I should emphasize "accurate" strategy table, because I've seen some
untrustworthy tables. In fact, I have yet to find a strategy table I
can trust. I'm looking at one right now for Deuces Wild that
recommends holding a 2 card straight flush, or a 4 card straight
flush, but tossing a 3 card straight flush. Is that nonsense or what?
* gilbert_616 <gilbert_616@y...> [2004-06-07 13:23]:
>
> Put yourself into their shoes: you are in the casino business
trying
> to make money and don't care much if a few or some people knows
> which machines return 100% or more, now you see this thing on tv
> telling everyone which machines they are --- what do you do? Add
> more of these Full-Pay machines, take them out,I'm a rookie here, but isn't it true that the player needs to adhere
to a basic strategy table in order to have an expectation > 100%?
If
media hype points out all the *potentially* 100%+ returning
machines,
does it not benefit the casino if it brings lots of action from
players who don't know the basic strategy? I assume average players
will do things like hold a 3 card straight, or 3 to a flush, at
times
when it does not make sense to.
Or is the return high enough that average play is positive? I'm
doubtful, because if average play were positive on these machines,
the
casinos would be fools to deploy them.
Years ago, maybe you can do a head count on the number of vp
pros/semi-pros/experts. With all the free vp classes, new tools such
as WinPoker, Frugal Video Poker, etc. more and more players have
gotten very good in the game of vp. You visit Gold Coast who has
2,000 video poker machines with 200 "positive" or ">100% return"
machines, for example. What do you see? Right on. Greed --- all
over the casino floor. All the experts trying to squeeze out
everything on those "positive" machines while the "negative" ones are
left unplayed (if not being play by a lot less people). Add to it
that these few people are almost guaranteed to lose, most likely they
won't play these "negative" machines too long. Let's say they played
the negative machines for 4 hours compared to the experts playing the
positive machines for something close to 24 hours a day.
Now, you are asking "does it not benefit the casino?". I think even
all the rookies should know the answer to this. And if it does
benefit the casino, why would they go on taking many of these
machines out of sight? (look up the definition of "business")
> I just wish that in the future, the vp gurus/experts getting on
> these tv specials won't think of revealing every details on "good"
> machines if any new good ones will ever show up again.Or does this benefit the casino, because those who see the tv
specials
don't know they still need a degree of skill (IOW: an accurate
strategy table)? If it benefits the casino, then the machine stays,
which is in your interest.
When you go into a casino and notice that many people are touching
the vp screens and checking out the Pay Schedules, mainly
saying "nope I'm not playing on these negative machines" then "yup,
these are the machines I'm looking for", how could this benefit the
casino? (talking about above average very good vp players here)
When you talk about less knowledgeable or rookie players, you'll
notice that they do their practice/donations-to-casinos in the much
lower denomination .05c, .10c, .25c machines. Which positive
machines do the experts/pros play? hmmm...let's see.. $1, $2, $5,
$25, $100 machines.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Justin Gombos <mindfuq@z...> wrote:
Don't get me wrong here because I, as much as anyone, am unhappy
about the Coast decimation of good vp. But much of this post is
simply poppycock.
The wholesale destruction of positive VP, despite vehement pleas
and
anguished protests, over the course of a few months last year,
culminating in the VP deserts that are Coast Casinos today.*
Not all positive vp was removed from all properties.
The cynical marketing of Coast's VP offerings subsequent to the
massacre as being somehow BETTER or IMPROVED, as in "more 99%+
games
than anywhere else in Vegas!!" or some such tommyrot.
Identify an LV area casino that has more 99%+ vp available on its
floor than does, say, the Suncoast.
The targeting and discrimination of ALL VP players who played only
advantage VP, and the cancelling of their slot club accounts (with
loss of points accrued).
Nonsense. I played only positive vp at all the Coasts for years and
did not have my account canceled. Nor did many others whom I know.
The new policy of ABSOLUTE refusal to write "discretionary comps".
Refusal (reported in several places, as well as my own experience)
to
extend ANY room offers to VP players (not even casino rate in the
middle of the week).
Utter nonsense (as opposed to nonsense). I have never failed to
have a "discretionary comp" request honored at either BC or SC.
Have not requested any at the other two. Also, I've stayed at both
those places in suites within the last year and will do so again
over the July 4 weekend this year. (Must confess that this will be
my first stay since the vp decimation.) And they'll pick me up at
McCarran in their limo. That's a simple fact.
All this coupled with an attitude that the skilled local players
are
unworthy scum, not fit to darken the Coast casino doors. And that
goes
for non-sucker visitors, too.
I'd like to think that I'm a non-sucker visitor. In any event, I've
never had a losing year at a Coast property. Maybe I'm just lucky!
Yet they've not ever treated me badly.
This policy has hurt them, particularly Gold Coast losing business
to
the Palms, but also Suncoast losing business to the Cannery and
Rampart (and Santa Fe); but they get enough penny game and Bingo
players in the front door to keep the joints alive, Still, GC is a
desert on weekdays. It used to be crowded ALL the time.
Hurt them so badly that they posted record results the past four
quarters. Nevertheless, I too think that GC has suffered some, but
I've been to SC to eat at Primo's three or four times this year and
found the place jam packed on each occasion with apparently happy
gamblers banging away on all that 99%+ vp.
Bottom line: They hate us, and they've made sure we know it. Why,
then, should we favor them with our presence?
Bottom line? They are probably arguably guilty of greediness, not
hate.
*Yes, I know there are two .25 10/7 DB in the men's room behind the
snack bar. Whatever. In November 2002 I counted 133 .25 FPDW
machines
at the Gold Coast. How many do you suppose there are now?
Zip?
Pete
I'm sure I'll get criticized for saying this, but here goes... I boycotted
the Suncoast for at least a year after they got rid of the FPDW. I played
mostly at Stations (Texas and Santa Fe). I didn't feel particularly welcome
at either one, especially after they cut the points in half and eliminated
all discretionary comps. I've gone back to Suncoast (playing NSUD) and am
treated like I'm their best customer. Of course, I'm losing there a bit,
and playing at their bartops (they love drinkers!), but I'm still at least a
bit happier there. (Plus I don't have to drive 10+ miles each way to
Stations, since Suncoast is just around the corner). I don't think Coast is
as bad as some still insist. I'm back at the "A" list there, and get coupon
sheets worth about $100/month.
-- Steve in LV