Why are the higher denomination and multi-play JOB machines so often
short pay? For example the LVH and Caesar's have lots of full pay JOB
at levels up to about $ and then short pay their higher denominations
and multi-plays.
It seems that this is the opposite of what they should want to do,
and some places like the B do have the higher denominations being
full-pay. Of course, if it is a machine that pays back over 100% with
CB, it is understandable. I never cease to be amazed at the people
who will play a 50-line machine at 1 coin per line. I think casinos
would get a lot more play on these multi-play machines if they were
full-play, and there would be a tendancy for people to overplay their
bankrolls on them.
Why are higher denominations often short-pay
Why are the higher denomination and multi-play JOB machines so
often
short pay?
Because many casual visitors as well as pros have learned that
playing slightly negative VP with a good slot club is an excellent
way to score gourmet meals, free rooms, etc, with very little
downside risk.
For example, a $5 JOB player would have the run of most casinos,
full RFB, while surrendering a whopping 2.5 cents per hand played to
the house; at 600 hands/hr, $7.50. Vegas on less than $100 a day!
One by one, casinos got tired of subsidizing everyone's vacations.
So they removed the 99% or better machines at the high denoms.
You can still find a few 9/6 JOB here and there.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ozymandias77096" <ugwf@h...> wrote:
One by one, casinos got tired of subsidizing everyone's vacations.
So they removed the 99% or better machines at the high denoms.
Interesting, but in fact only about 20% of all LV visitors are comped
and use player cards. The other 80% are paying rack rate or close to it.
But those 20% make up about 80% of the gambling action flowing thru
town.
Regards,
Scot
···
-----Original Message-----
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:40 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Why are higher denominations often short-pay
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Scot Krause" <krauseinvegas@w...>
wrote
>Interesting, but in fact only about 20% of all LV visitors are
comped
and use player cards. The other 80% are paying rack rate or close
to it.
···
But those 20% make up about 80% of the gambling action flowing thru
town.Regards,
Scot
===================================================================
Hi Scot,
I believe you but where do those 80%/20%/80% figures come from?
I've never heard this particular statistic before.
Thanks.
Hi
The following is just a few thoughts. I think you and most others
here will generally agree. The 80/20 rule you mention is right on the
money.
Let's side step to bj. The house has to put up with a good basic
strategy player in order to make $$ on lousy player. They can't have
it both ways. Except house can bar players in Vegas. My belief is
they could tighten rules and get rid of basic strategy player who
knows a little. Then house loses the marginal player who is dumping
many $$. They get blown out every time and their gambling experience
is never good. Eventially they lose all the players.
A couple years ago Taj in AC cut CB drastically and cut comp rates
too. At one time on Friday and Saturday you had to wait for a machine
in the high limit room. Both VP and slots. Now it's like a gost town
on weekend. I see the old BPs playing all over town. Most were just
players who played good, but house still had a good win from them.
Many drank heavy and enjoyed their weekend, every weekend. You would
see some at the slots too.
Now I read here LVH has cut comp rates drastically. If this is true,
I would compare this to the restaurant changing hands. They raise
prices and take away the all you can eat fish on Friday nights. You
can hear the managers complaining about those 10 guys who eat 15
pieces of fish. You don't hear about them cleaning up on those 10 old
ladies who only ate 1 piece of fish. What these restaurant and casino
guys forget, it's easy to chase players away and hard to get them
back. The managers complain about those 10 guys they have to
subsidize and forget about the high profit player. If the LVH
tightened so much they will make a good profit for a while, less
comps more profit. In a couple years they will be filled with
conventioneers who will be sitting at the bar playing one dollar at a
time on the 7/5 JOB, or whatever it is, and drinking free drinks all
night long. Then manager can complain about free drinks they have to
subsidize. Just like the Taj now, the suits will wonder where all the
profits and customers went.
One more thought. Fromtier went through long years of strike. They
still offered a good gamble for players. I crossed the picket line
too many times to count. So did hundreds of thousands of others. I
would guess they made $$ since they lasted for years. Even then
Frontier was not the nicest place in town. But, the people were nice
and the gambling was good. Then New Frontier came. Tightened up whole
place and sent their players down road. Now they fill the bar and the
people don't even trickle a few quarters through machines for comp
drinks. They just pay for drinks. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and New
Frontier may be way more profitable than before.
Cheers...Jeep
.
.
One by one, casinos got tired of subsidizing everyone's vacations.
So they removed the 99% or better machines at the high denoms.>Interesting, but in fact only about 20% of all LV visitors are
comped
and use player cards. The other 80% are paying rack rate or close
to it.
···
But those 20% make up about 80% of the gambling action flowing thru
town.Regards,
Scot
their bankrolls on them.
Casinos don't seem to know what to do with the 50 and 100 line VP
machines. Either they are scared of the things, or they lump them in
with their other bad pay table nickle video poker games. Either way,
they often set these machines up with extremely poor pay tables, i.e.
junk games like 6/5 Bonus Poker. No one with any VP knowledge is
going to touch these machines, and even the clueless players who
attempt to play these bad games at full coin will soon figure out
that the machine is a vacuum cleaner. As a result, it's common to
see whole banks of expensive, shiny, new 50 and 100 play machines
that sit idle most of the time, or get played 1 line, 1 nickle at a
time.
In the few places where I have seen these machines set up with good
pay tables, they get TONS of play. Sure, some of it is from good
players looking to score some generous comps at little or no cost, or
as a way to quickly rack up enough points to stay qualified for the
top tier of mail offers. But they also get lots and lots of play
from hard core but unskilled VP players playing games like 98.9%
Double Double Bonus just hoping to get a dealt quad with a kicker.
It would seem that the net result of this type of arrangement would
be much better for the casino than having the machines sit around
empty all day, but you always have to keep in mind that casinos can't
STAND the thought of even one person having an advantage over them.
EE
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ozymandias77096" <ugwf@h...> wrote:
...... I never cease to be amazed at the people
who will play a 50-line machine at 1 coin per line. I think casinos
would get a lot more play on these multi-play machines if they were
full-play, and there would be a tendancy for people to overplay
One more thought. Fromtier went through long years of strike. They
still offered a good gamble for players. I crossed the picket line
too many times to count. So did hundreds of thousands of others. I
would guess they made $$ since they lasted for years. Even then
Frontier was not the nicest place in town. But, the people were
nice
and the gambling was good. Then New Frontier came. Tightened up
whole
place and sent their players down road. Now they fill the bar and
the
people don't even trickle a few quarters through machines for comp
drinks. They just pay for drinks. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and New
Frontier may be way more profitable than before.
I remember when I first moved to town, the Frontier had the absolute
best single deck BJ at the time...stand on S17 & DAS, which made the
game positive off the top. Penetration was standard rule of 6 (tables
were usually full so you got two rounds, three rounds to 3 players),
and no early shuffles, unless a player tripled his last bet.
They also had a great seafood buffet on Fridays...
Don the Dentist
Hi Don
I'm not sure about this, but I think the lady who ran Frontier
believed there are those who count and there are those who think they
can count. The two canceled each other out so why worry about them.
If she didn't say that I'm sure some old operator somewhere said it.
To me it makes sense. But, I don't own a gambling joint.
Cheers....Jeep
.
> One more thought. Fromtier went through long years of strike.
They
> still offered a good gamble for players. I crossed the picket
line
> too many times to count. So did hundreds of thousands of others.
I
> would guess they made $$ since they lasted for years. Even then
> Frontier was not the nicest place in town. But, the people were
nice
> and the gambling was good. Then New Frontier came. Tightened up
whole
> place and sent their players down road. Now they fill the bar and
the
> people don't even trickle a few quarters through machines for
comp
> drinks. They just pay for drinks. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and New
> Frontier may be way more profitable than before.I remember when I first moved to town, the Frontier had the
absolute
best single deck BJ at the time...stand on S17 & DAS, which made
the
game positive off the top. Penetration was standard rule of 6
(tables
were usually full so you got two rounds, three rounds to 3
players),
···
.--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dds2124" <dds6@c...> wrote:
and no early shuffles, unless a player tripled his last bet.
They also had a great seafood buffet on Fridays...
Don the Dentist
True. The full pay 100-play 1 and 2 cent machines at Ameristar KC have 9/6 JOB on them, and they are VERY popular.
carlos
···
eecounter <eecounter@hotmail.com> wrote:
In the few places where I have seen these machines set up with good
pay tables, they get TONS of play. Sure, some of it is from good
players looking to score some generous comps at little or no cost, or
as a way to quickly rack up enough points to stay qualified for the
top tier of mail offers. But they also get lots and lots of play
from hard core but unskilled VP players playing games like 98.9%
Double Double Bonus just hoping to get a dealt quad with a kicker.
It would seem that the net result of this type of arrangement would
be much better for the casino than having the machines sit around
empty all day, but you always have to keep in mind that casinos can't
STAND the thought of even one person having an advantage over them.
EE
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why are the higher denomination and multi-play JOB machines so
often
short pay?
Because casinos still prefer to have low-denomination games with
higher house edges. Even though many nickel slots allow players to
wager more than a standard 25c machine, the house edge is still
usually higher on nickel machines.
It seems that this is the opposite of what they should want to do,
and some places like the B do have the higher denominations being
full-pay. Of course, if it is a machine that pays back over 100%
with
CB, it is understandable.
I understand how you feel. It was initially thought thought that
multiplay machines would "allow" casinos to offer better (99%+)
machines. Instead, the casinos have switched their "regular" mahcines
with multiplay, and made it tougher for players to wager "full coin".
9/6 JOB at $1 is hardly ever offered anymore, except when a wager of
over $5 is required (eg 10 coin 3 line 25c, or 5 coin 1 line $5).
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ozymandias77096" <ugwf@h...> wrote:
> Why are the higher denomination and multi-play JOB machines so
often
> short pay?Because casinos still prefer to have low-denomination games with
higher house edges. Even though many nickel slots allow players to
wager more than a standard 25c machine, the house edge is still
usually higher on nickel machines.> It seems that this is the opposite of what they should want to
do,
> and some places like the B do have the higher denominations
being
> full-pay. Of course, if it is a machine that pays back over 100%
with
> CB, it is understandable.I understand how you feel. It was initially thought thought that
multiplay machines would "allow" casinos to offer better (99%+)
machines. Instead, the casinos have switched their "regular"
mahcines
with multiplay, and made it tougher for players to wager "full
coin".
9/6 JOB at $1 is hardly ever offered anymore, except when a wager
of
over $5 is required (eg 10 coin 3 line 25c, or 5 coin 1 line $5).
Huh?
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "djmcosmo" <djmcosmo@y...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "ozymandias77096" <ugwf@h...> wrote: