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[vpmail2] Math puzzle - Palms coupon

My post which follows, of 1/2 an hour ago and looks like it got lost
in the ether, will likely come through as a duplicate after this
resend ... but hey, I've now added a bit or two ...

···

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jackessiebabe wrote:

I play a lot of DB & DDB and found this extremely interesting,
Thanks, Harry, for doing the math that I didn't think to do!

It also bares out my contention that, for the rec player who is
playing for "the thrill of it all", rather than squeezing out every
penny of EV, that sometimes it isn't a horrific idea to "take a
gamble" and hold the 2 aces alone. Interestingly enough, at DB,
though frequently I am tempted to dump the 2nd pair (when I also
have a pair of Aces)I almost never do. It is so ingrained in me,
from playing so many millions of hands on BDWP, that I just can't go
against the strategy. Perhaps that's why I prefer DDB, where it's
always permissable to drop the 2nd pair.

I'm glad my comments were appreciated.

I'll go a step further with the 10/7 DB analysis. Switching over to
Frugal VP (my previous comments were based upon VP Strategy Master
analysis ... I'm a creature of habit, Jean ;), it's possible to
determine the exact impact on ER of any basic strategy change.

For 10/7 DB, holding a pair of high Aces over 2 Pair impairs ER by an
earthshattering .0018%. I'll go out on a limb here and say that
there's little doubt, for the player who enjoys DDB, that this
sacrifice is an intelligent choice -- given the likely reward in play
excitement (especially for an intrepid soul like you, Babe!)

I know what you're saying that when you use a computer tutor, it's
near impossible to stray from "perfect play" strategy -- especially
when the tutor flashes blaring error messages every time you stray
(and that's the worst it gets for me since I turned off the error
buzzer long ago ;).

So here's a hint. We all know the adrenaline kick a set of quad Aces
bring. If this is something that you really crave (little doubt about
this for any player who enjoys DDB), go ahead and change the quad Aces
payout to 805 (1 coin value of 161) -- yep that's all it takes. Now,
it'll admonish you if you hold 2 pair over a single pair of Aces. (If
you have your minimum error threshold, i.e. "ignore" value, set to
anything other than 0, or near 0, winpoker will likely keep mum in
either case at this setting.

For what it's worth, variance (something I obsess over) with this
strategy change increases fairly nominally ... from 28.2 to 29.6 --
not insignificant, but again an increase that is WELL within the
tolerance of a DDB player.

--> Two additional observations for clarification:

A discussion of returns can be a little abstract. FVP reports this
strategy change as a $.15/hr. EV hit for the $1 player ($.04 for the
quarter). You can be that's something Bob Dancer would freak over :wink:

Second, the modest variance increase noted can be misleading when it
comes to any single vp session (or multiple, for that matter).
Clearly, if you end up scoring a small coup in additional quad Aces,
the impact of the strategy change is a major influence on your trip
results. Conversely, if you still are quad-Aceless (love to make up
words) in a trip, you'll have sacrificed a decent number of full
houses and the effect on your trip bottom line will be far from
negligible.

Remember, variance is a concept for the very long term. Everything
does indeed average out ultimately. But, being someone who craves the
serenity of Jacks play (save me the "snores", guys!), you can bet I'll
forevermore hold those 2 pairs and not flinch a bit at a mini-jackpot
forgone.

So, Babe ... I've dragged you (and others) through the numbers.
Feeling better about grabbing onto just those Aces and getting a small
thrill each time?

- Harry

As a regular single-line, quarter player, at NSUD and DB most of the time, I do
find that the quarter 10-line JOB at the LVH keeps my attention, when I feel
"flushed" enough to play it. $12.50 a pull is a lot more than $1.25. I've never
fallen asleep (at leasy, not yet). LOL

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...> wrote:

But, being someone who craves the
serenity of Jacks play (save me the "snores", guys!),

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

My post which follows, of 1/2 an hour ago and looks like it got lost
in the ether, will likely come through as a duplicate after this
resend ... but hey, I've now added a bit or two ...

···

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friend Harry,

At least YOU didn't unknowingly send two meaningless posts which,
I'm sure, caused a few list members to assume that I've finally
gone around the bend, on my way to the last round-up! (-:
-------------------------------------------------.

For 10/7 DB, holding a pair of high Aces over 2 Pair impairs ER by
an earthshattering .0018%.

---------------------------------------------------
I always knew it was only worth a few pennies at quarter play,
but thanks for verifying it.
----------------------------------------------------
I'll go out on a limb here and say that there's little doubt, for
the player who enjoys DDB, that this sacrifice is an intelligent
choice -- given the likely reward in play excitement (especially for
an intrepid soul like you, Babe!)
----------------------------------------------------
Here's where I lost you, Harry. I assume you wrote DDB but meant
DB?? I know it's the wrong play at DB (to drop a second pair when
you also have a pait of aces) but it's ALWAYS the correct play at
DDB.
-----------------------------------------------------
............Conversely, if you still are quad-Aceless (love to make
up words) in a trip, you'll have sacrificed a decent number of full
houses and the effect on your trip bottom line will be far from
negligible............
------------------------------------------------------
And I love to make up doggerel:

      It's quite baseless,
      to mention quad-aceless,
      if you frequently score,
      kickers plus quad-four
-------------------------------------------------------
.........But, being someone who craves the serenity of Jacks play
(save me the "snores", guys!), you can bet I'll forevermore hold
those 2 pairs and not flinch a bit at a mini-jackpot forgone.....
--------------------------------------------------------
Believe it or not, Harry, I also play JOB.......but ONLY in my
occasional wild & crazy forays into multi-play, when variance
becomes a BIG factor in my game selection.
---------------------------------------------------------
So, Babe ... I've dragged you (and others) through the numbers.
Feeling better about grabbing onto just those Aces and getting a
small thrill each time?

- Harry
-------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, Harry, I get quite a thrill just thinking about the lovely
DDB quad-aces+kicker. At my age, you grab those thrills wherever
you can find them! (-:

Babe

jackessiebabe wrote:

(quoting me:)
I'll go out on a limb here and say that there's little doubt, for
the player who enjoys DDB, that this sacrifice is an intelligent
choice -- given the likely reward in play excitement (especially for
an intrepid soul like you, Babe!)

----------------------------------------------------
Here's where I lost you, Harry. I assume you wrote DDB but meant
DB?? I know it's the wrong play at DB (to drop a second pair when
you also have a pait of aces) but it's ALWAYS the correct play at
DDB.

No mistatement here, Babe. What I mean is that for someone who
particularly enjoys DDB because of the high value bonus quads, going
for the Aces in DB with a pair held, and dropping a second pair, is a
reasonable play. It's going to generate emotional "EV" that more than
offsets the small financial "EV" sacrifice involved. (In other words,
this hypothetical quarter play would gladly ante up $.04 an hour if
that makes this a smarter move, all things considered, than holding
the two pair.)

And I love to make up doggerel:

      It's quite baseless,
      to mention quad-aceless,
      if you frequently score,
      kickers plus quad-four

You're shameless (but good ;)!

- H.

···

Babe

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

Remember, variance is a concept for the very long term. Everything
does indeed average out ultimately. But, being someone who craves

the

serenity of Jacks play (save me the "snores", guys!), you can bet

I'll

forevermore hold those 2 pairs and not flinch a bit at a mini-jackpot
forgone.

Harry, I'm right there with you on the low variance bandwagon!

"If you stick to Jacks when you go play,
You won't lose all in just one day."

(apologies to Babe--LOVED your post, BTW)

Drew

Harry, I'm right there with you on the low variance bandwagon!

"If you stick to Jacks when you go play,
You won't lose all in just one day."

(apologies to Babe--LOVED your post, BTW)

Drew

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpdeuces" <vpdeuces@y...> wrote:

----------------------------------------------------

No apologies necessary, Drew. I enjoyed your post as well.

I think that you're right on the money with your take on playing
Jacks. USUALLY, your money lasts much longer with Jacks than it
does at the "big quad payoff" bonus games. So what if you don't
have the heart-thumping thrill of watching the 4th Ace and THEN
the kicker appear on your screen?

If Double Double Bonus is your game,
you have no one but yourself to blame.
When your bankroll disappears in a flash,
and you're at the ATM to get more cash!

So do as Harry and Drew wisely suggest,
and stick to JOB, the game you know best.
Okay Tom, I'll try to cut this out......
I'm headed for FREEvpFREE without a doubt!

(-: Babe