vpFREE2 Forums

[vpFREE] Re: xvp - Marxian Medicine? -

#1

This thread moved to FREEvpFREE

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···

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: hedonist144 <hedonist144@yahoo.com>
Date sent: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: xvp - Marxian Medicine? -

You couldn't be more wrong about capitalism not being a good
system! According to a 2006 report by the International Monetary
Fund and a separate report by the World Bank:
   
  US gross domestic product was greater than countries (Japan,
Germany, China, and the UK) ranked 2-5 combined.
   
  US GDP was greater than all countries ranked 13-180 combined.
   
  US produced 27% of all world GDP while having only 4.4% of the
  population.
   
  Socialism failed miserably in Russia, China, and Eastern
Europe. China and Russia only improved after drastically
altering their socialist policies. The poorest people in this
country live far better here than in most of the world.
    
pesach kremen <royalflush2222@yahoo.com> wrote:
          
Socialized medicine is a very good thing. Everyone can be treated
regardless of income or wealth. One visit to the ER here in vegas
last year with my "good insurance" resulted in out of pocket
costs of $1500. On top of that I am assessed $75 a month for
insurance at work, my employer pays over $500, I have
deductibles, co-pays, and denial of and wait for care.

Were HR676 to pass my employer's expense for me would be about
$2500, 40 %of what is paid now - my expense about $2500 (based on
a 4.75% tax for HR676) which would be less than my monthly
premiums, deductibles, co-pays and uncovered items. Who would
lose, the profits going to the drug companies and insurance
companies.

Do we wait now, yes! Wait for insurance company approvals, Yes.
Those without insurance have to wait, oh yes! Wait for time lost
for treatment due paperwork processing, yes!

Those who mention Canadians coming south. What about charter
busses going north from maine to new Brunswick for Seniors to buy
medicine in Canada? I have a friend here who needed procedures
done. The cost was so prohibitive here that he had to fly back to
France and it was still cheaper even if he would of gone first
class!

Capitalism is not a good system. It has it's good parts
(incentives) but it's very bad parts (greed) and it is extremely
unfair to the have nots, as believe it or not, entry is not
available to all whether it be employment, starting a business,
etc. Socialism has it's polus and minuses tooo but it is a fair
system and seems to work well in many countries.

Look at the air travel mess we have! Would socialism help if
airlines were nationalized, maybe? The private railroads didn't
consider passengers profitable enough, thus Amtrak was created
which with it's extremely limited government help (much less that
the highways or airlines) covers 80% of it's cost from fares. By
the way, the airlines don't do any better, the stockholders just
pick up the differences here. The postal service is run by the
government, would anyone do it for profit, and this means getting
mail to small towns that could never be profitable. grant it, the
P O does some silly things such as not picking up or delivering
mail on the first day of the week, a definite loss of efficiency.
We have libraries and other government servies that all well run,
health care could be the same.

Gene Bryant <gjbryant@charter.net> wrote:
AMEN !!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: tralfamidorgooglycrackers
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: xvp - Marxian Medicine?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Richard Boozer <reboozer@...> wrote:

Who has been brainwashed?? I'd say it's you!

--- pesach kremen <royalflush2222@...> wrote:

> Socialized medicine is a good thing, we have just
> been brainwashed to oppose it!

"Socialized" ANYTHING is a terrible thing. Socialism is right up

there with alchemy, medicine by leeches, and human sacrifice as one
of the worst ideas of all time. It ignores completely the idea of
human INCENTIVE. Karl Marx must not have spent much time out in the
real world, and neither must have the legions who followed him
(excepting the ones who professed faith in his philosophies merely as
a pretext to impose state terror).

What you refer to as "brainwashing" is actually the skin-crawling

feeling that horrible ideas give most of us when they are proposed by
our putative leaders.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
From: hedonist144 <hedonist144@yahoo.com>
Date sent: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 07:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [vpFREE] sorry for the repeated messages

#2

"Capitalism is not a good system. It has it's good parts
(incentives) but it's very bad parts (greed) and it is extremely
unfair to the have nots"

The main problem with liberals is that they want to cater to and
sustain the "have nots". I have no use for any of them. We've all got
the same opportunity to work hard and make something out of ourselves
while reaping the rewards of being able to take care of ourselves and
our families during our journies. Those who simply want to suck off the
system, with minimal effort going only into "what can you do for me?"
are better off--and we're all better off--if they get crushed by
Capitalists' shoes.

#3

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111" <robsinger1111@...>
wrote:

"Capitalism is not a good system. It has it's good parts
(incentives) but it's very bad parts (greed) and it is extremely
unfair to the have nots"

The main problem with liberals is that they want to cater to and
sustain the "have nots". I have no use for any of them. We've all got
the same opportunity to work hard and make something out of ourselves
while reaping the rewards of being able to take care of ourselves and
our families during our journies. Those who simply want to suck off

the

system, with minimal effort going only into "what can you do for me?"
are better off--and we're all better off--if they get crushed by
Capitalists' shoes.

Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The problem
with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore the
complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long as free
market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not happening in
the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas as
well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces you
start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations taking the
place of customer service which is required in a true free market.

The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I certainly
won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

Dick

#4

Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The problem
with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore the
complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long as

free

market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not happening

in

the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas as
well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces you
start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations taking

the

place of customer service which is required in a true free market.

The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I certainly
won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

In other words, you're jealous of those who have it because you don't.
Free market principles are hard at work in our health care system. It's
called GET A JOB! Either the employer pays or you do, but you always
have the choice IF you're working. Profit-taking considerations are a
valuable commodity to those who've worked hard and earned that right.
Just as with the oil companies, there should be no limits in that
regard. I'd be glad to see gasoline go to $10 or $20/gallon just to
weed out the trash, system suckers and phonies in our society. A bonus
would be getting to see the whiners like you come out and moan about
grocery prices, when their real bellyache is how much it cost them to
go to the casinos and continue wasting their lives away.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

#5

One basic problem of capitalism is that resources are finite. As a result, competition is reduced. Unfortunately, the power is in the hands of the wealthy. Their capitalism is enhanced by favorable tax treatment, ability to limit competition, and the buying of laws favorable to them. For this reason we need controls and in major industries and in necessities (health care) a government run program often works better. Notice that medicare costs are about 3% while private profit and administrative plans take about 33%. This is wrong. Money paid for health care should go to that and the poor and those in lower paying jobs deserve the same care. Jobs often are not a choice, it is what is available. The system of employer coverage with co-pays, insurance companies making the decision which care is OK, is absurd. Single payer under HR676 would cost employers and employees a tax of 4.75% each, much less than what we pay now with no deductibles, co pays, or denial of care or
refusal to be covered.

> Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The problem
> with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore the
> complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long as
free
> market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not happening
in
> the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas as
> well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces you
> start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations taking
the
> place of customer service which is required in a true free market.
>
> The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I certainly
> won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

In other words, you're jealous of those who have it because you don't.
Free market principles are hard at work in our health care system. It's
called GET A JOB! Either the employer pays or you do, but you always
have the choice IF you're working. Profit-taking considerations are a
valuable commodity to those who've worked hard and earned that right.
Just as with the oil companies, there should be no limits in that
regard. I'd be glad to see gasoline go to $10 or $20/gallon just to
weed out the trash, system suckers and phonies in our society. A bonus
would be getting to see the whiners like you come out and moan about
grocery prices, when their real bellyache is how much it cost them to
go to the casinos and continue wasting their lives away.

···

robsinger1111 <robsinger1111@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

In this country you have a phenominal choice & availability of where to work, what the pay is, and what to do. It's called MOTIVATION and the desire to be part of the process rather than part of the problem. It's no surprise that those of us who work lead better lives. The main problem is the democrats--they want to keep on handing out freebies to those who choose not to work simply to sustain their laziness. These are also the majority of those who supposedly have no healthcare. The dems also are in favor of supplying that care to illegals, which is blatantly wrong to do by any stretch.
   
  Critics of the current system of co-pays, etc.--which does need some fixing in the area of cost containment--are usually too cheap to select PPO's, so they take HMO's and go thru the hoops in that selection that they knew would be there because of their desire to save a buck. The result is complaint after complaint because, just like most slot-card toting addicted vp players, they believe they deserve more in the form of benefits than they're getting. It's their own fault, only they feel better blaming someone else..

          One basic problem of capitalism is that resources are finite. As a result, competition is reduced. Unfortunately, the power is in the hands of the wealthy. Their capitalism is enhanced by favorable tax treatment, ability to limit competition, and the buying of laws favorable to them. For this reason we need controls and in major industries and in necessities (health care) a government run program often works better. Notice that medicare costs are about 3% while private profit and administrative plans take about 33%. This is wrong. Money paid for health care should go to that and the poor and those in lower paying jobs deserve the same care. Jobs often are not a choice, it is what is available. The system of employer coverage with co-pays, insurance companies making the decision which care is OK, is absurd. Single payer under HR676 would cost employers and employees a tax of 4.75% each, much less than what we pay now with no deductibles, co pays, or denial of care
or
refusal to be covered.

Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The problem
with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore the
complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long as

free

market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not happening

in

the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas as
well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces you
start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations taking

the

place of customer service which is required in a true free market.

The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I certainly
won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

In other words, you're jealous of those who have it because you don't.
Free market principles are hard at work in our health care system. It's
called GET A JOB! Either the employer pays or you do, but you always
have the choice IF you're working. Profit-taking considerations are a
valuable commodity to those who've worked hard and earned that right.
Just as with the oil companies, there should be no limits in that
regard. I'd be glad to see gasoline go to $10 or $20/gallon just to
weed out the trash, system suckers and phonies in our society. A bonus
would be getting to see the whiners like you come out and moan about
grocery prices, when their real bellyache is how much it cost them to
go to the casinos and continue wasting their lives away.

···

pesach kremen <royalflush2222@yahoo.com> wrote:
robsinger1111 <robsinger1111@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111"
<robsinger1111@...> wrote:

> Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The

problem

> with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore

the

> complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long

as

free
> market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not

happening

in
> the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas

as

> well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces

you

> start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations

taking

the
> place of customer service which is required in a true free market.
>
> The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I

certainly

> won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

In other words, you're jealous of those who have it because you

don't.

Have what? I see you plan on making a fool out of yourself once again.

Free market principles are hard at work in our health care system.

It's

called GET A JOB! Either the employer pays or you do, but you

always

have the choice IF you're working.

That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. This has nothing to
do with health care EMPLOYEEs but how the system itself functions.

Profit-taking considerations are a
valuable commodity to those who've worked hard and earned that

right.

Just as with the oil companies, there should be no limits in that
regard. I'd be glad to see gasoline go to $10 or $20/gallon just to
weed out the trash, system suckers and phonies in our society. A

bonus

would be getting to see the whiners like you come out and moan

about

grocery prices, when their real bellyache is how much it cost them

to

go to the casinos and continue wasting their lives away.

ROTFLMAO yet again. The question isn't about profits but what
motivates those profits. If customers don't provide the motivation
then free markets principles have been compromised.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@> wrote:

#8

More of the same from the outside looking in. It "isn't about profits"
but it "is about what motivate profits"! Here's a flash: What motivates
profits is what making profit is all about. It is the beginning and the
end when it comes to profit.

Get some sleep--you're tailing off in the common sense area again.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

ROTFLMAO yet again. The question isn't about profits but what
motivates those profits. If customers don't provide the motivation
then free markets principles have been compromised.

#9

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "robsinger1111"
<robsinger1111@...> wrote:

> ROTFLMAO yet again. The question isn't about profits but what
> motivates those profits. If customers don't provide the

motivation

> then free markets principles have been compromised.

More of the same from the outside looking in. It "isn't about

profits"

but it "is about what motivate profits"! Here's a flash: What

motivates

profits is what making profit is all about. It is the beginning and

the

end when it comes to profit.

Get some sleep--you're tailing off in the common sense area again.

Ahhhhhh. Projection at it's finest. I see you must have failed your
ecomonics courses.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@> wrote:

#10

Capitalism is needed because resources are finite. Capitalism, when properly implemented, is an excellent allocator of assets. If resources were infinite, any economic model, even communism, would work. In addition there is nothing inherently wrong with the wealthy having power. Power comes with being wealthy. Your statement implies being wealthy is unfortunate. At times certain businesses do receive tax breaks. Hopefully those would be limited to temporarily stimulating economic activity in depressed areas. Earnings of corporations are taxed twice, once at the corporate level and then a second time at the personal level when passed to the shareholders. Income should never be taxed twice on the same income.
  
          One basic problem of capitalism is that resources are finite. As a result, competition is reduced. Unfortunately, the power is in the hands of the wealthy. Their capitalism is enhanced by favorable tax treatment, ability to limit competition, and the buying of laws favorable to them. For this reason we need controls and in major industries and in necessities (health care) a government run program often works better. Notice that medicare costs are about 3% while private profit and administrative plans take about 33%. This is wrong. Money paid for health care should go to that and the poor and those in lower paying jobs deserve the same care. Jobs often are not a choice, it is what is available. The system of employer coverage with co-pays, insurance companies making the decision which care is OK, is absurd. Single payer under HR676 would cost employers and employees a tax of 4.75% each, much less than what we pay now with no deductibles, co pays, or denial of care
or
refusal to be covered.

Once again Robbie demonstrates his umitigated stupidity. The problem
with the posts on this subject is they have all tended to ignore the
complexity of the problem. Capitalism is a great system as long as

free

market principles are working. Unfortunately, this is not happening

in

the area of health care, nor is it happening in many other areas as
well. When free market principles are undercut by other forces you
start to see monopolies form and pure profit considerations taking

the

place of customer service which is required in a true free market.

The answer is not necessarily a socialist system either. I certainly
won't claim to have the answer, but I know it will not be easy.

In other words, you're jealous of those who have it because you don't.
Free market principles are hard at work in our health care system. It's
called GET A JOB! Either the employer pays or you do, but you always
have the choice IF you're working. Profit-taking considerations are a
valuable commodity to those who've worked hard and earned that right.
Just as with the oil companies, there should be no limits in that
regard. I'd be glad to see gasoline go to $10 or $20/gallon just to
weed out the trash, system suckers and phonies in our society. A bonus
would be getting to see the whiners like you come out and moan about
grocery prices, when their real bellyache is how much it cost them to
go to the casinos and continue wasting their lives away.

···

pesach kremen <royalflush2222@yahoo.com> wrote:
robsinger1111 <robsinger1111@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]