vpFREE2 Forums

vpFree paytables, Deuces Wild variants

#1

I have a suggestion for organizing the Deuces Wild variants. I like the current sub-categories for Bonus Deuces, Double Bonus Deuces, etc. Three other groupings can be broken off from the main Deuces Wild group: Double Deuces, Loose Deuces, and Triple Deuces. I propose that the main Deuces Wild group should be those variants that pay 200 per coin for 4 deuces (i.e. original or "single" deuces).
   
  Here's my suggested reorganization:
   
  Deuces Wild

          1-2-2-3-4-10-15-25-200-800 ... 94.82%
1-2-2-3-4-13-16-25-200-800 ... 96.77% - Colorado Deuces
1-2-3-4-4-10-10-20-200-800 ... 96.98%
1-2-3-4-4-09-12-20-200-800 ... 97.06%
1-2-3-4-4-10-12-20-200-800 ... 97.58%
1-2-3-4-4-09-15-25-200-800 ... 98.91% - LV Airport/Illinois Deuces
1-2-2-3-5-09-12-20-200-800 ... 98.94%
1-2-3-4-4-10-15-25-200-800 ... 99.42%
1-2-3-4-4-10-16-25-200-800 ... 99.73% - NSUD
1-2-2-3-5-09-12-25-200-800 ... 99.81%
1-2-2-3-5-09-15-20-200-800 ... 99.89%
1-2-3-4-4-11-15-25-200-800 ... 99.96% - APDW
1-2-2-3-5-08-15-25-200-800 ... 100.36%
1-2-2-3-5-09-15-25-200-800 ... 100.76% - FPDW (FP)
1-2-2-3-5-09-15-25-200-800 ... 101.28% - 12,000 SEQ

  Double Deuces 1-2-2-3-4-10-15-25-400-800 ... 98.86%
1-2-2-3-4-10-16-25-400-800 ... 99.17%
1-2-2-3-4-11-16-25-400-800 ... 99.62% - DDW (FP)
1-2-2-3-4-11-16-25-400-940 ... 99.94%
1-2-2-3-4-13-16-25-400-800 ... 100.61%
1-2-2-3-4-13-16-25-400-940 ... 100.92% - Downtown Deuces
1-2-3-4-4-10-10-20-400-800 ... 100.95% - Sam's Town Deuces

  Loose Deuces
  1-2-2-3-4-08-12-25-500-800 ... 99.16%
1-2-2-3-4-08-15-25-500-800 ... 100.15% - LDW (FP)
1-2-2-3-4-10-17-25-500-800 ... 101.60%
  
Triple Deuces

  1-2-2-3-4-06-09-20-600-800 ... 98.86%
1-2-2-3-4-08-10-20-600-800 ... 99.92% - TDW (FP)
1-2-2-3-4-08-11-20-600-800 ... 100.25%

···

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#2

Hi John,

Thanks so much for your excellent post. I love playing deuces and
agree that there are so many varient pay tables, that it can be a
little confusing to do the math, while seeking a machine in the
casino.

I intend to print and carry your chart with me.

Thanks again for taking the time and trouble to post this valuable
information.

Best regards,
~Babe~

···

==============================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:

I have a suggestion for organizing the Deuces Wild variants. I
like the current sub-categories for Bonus Deuces, Double Bonus
Deuces, etc. Three other groupings can be broken off from the main
Deuces Wild group: Double Deuces, Loose Deuces, and Triple Deuces. I
propose that the main Deuces Wild group should be those variants
that pay 200 per coin for 4 deuces (i.e. original or "single"
deuces)...........

#3

As a newcomer both to VP and this forum, I want to ask you how exactly
such a table may be used in a casino.

I too printed the table, to have it with me.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

···

Hi John,

Thanks so much for your excellent post. I love playing deuces and
agree that there are so many varient pay tables, that it can be a
little confusing to do the math, while seeking a machine in the
casino.

#4

Hi Adams Myth.

Welcome to vpFREE!

When scouting in the casino for the best available DW pay schedules,
the chart will useful in determining the long term payback of the
available DW machines.

With the chart in hand , you need only compare the printed paytable
on the machine to the payback % on the chart. Since this will
obviate both mental and computer calculation in order to make this
determination, a lot of time can be saved, by the DW player, while
attempting to reach "long-term" nirvana! (-:

Good luck!
~Babe~

···

==============================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:
As a newcomer both to VP and this forum, I want to ask you how
exactly such a table may be used in a casino. I too printed the
table, to have it with me.

===============================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@> wrote:
Thanks so much for your excellent post. I love playing deuces and
agree that there are so many varient pay tables, that it can be
little confusing to do the math, while seeking a machine in the
casino.

#5

Adam:

OK, so you know a little about how to play video poker, but before you
sit down and start playing, the casinos make you play another
game...and that game is "Find the good machines." That is usually the
quest of every slot player who jumps from machine to machine in the
hopes of finding the "loose" machine. Most are doomed to failure,
since there is generally no such thing. For slot players, they might
get lucky once in a while, but constantly playing the same slot, day
in and day out, is a good recipe for losing your money.

With VP, it is a little easier, because you can actually tell the
payout on a machine based on the pay table.

So, when you walk into a new casino, think of yourself as being a
treasure hunter or on safari, on the hunt for the elusive good
machines. To keep things interesting, the casinos are constantly
changing locations of the machines, and even worse, changing the pay
tables.

vpFREE helps a lot, often giving you a treasure map to help you find
your prey. But even with a perfect map, you still need to make sure
the treasure has not already been plundered (paytable downgraded) and
occasionally you may find a treasure that has been missed before
(unlikely in Vegas, but common in smaller markets).

The tables listed here are your keys, your way of separating the
treasures (>100% payout) from fool's gold (some payouts are worse than
90%). Of course, just being able to spot the treasure does not mean
you can capture it...that takes time, knowledge, practice, and
sufficient bankroll, but it's a good start.

And if you find a hidden treasure, please share it here, to help all
of the other treasure hunters.

Good luck

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:

As a newcomer both to VP and this forum, I want to ask you how exactly
such a table may be used in a casino.

I too printed the table, to have it with me.

#6

The "pay table" on a VP machine allows you to compute the "return" of the machine, over
the very long term, if you use perfect strategy while playing it. As such, it allows you to
identify the better machines to play. The EV/ER tables given in places like vpFREE have
already computed that return for you (often with the variance) for many different games
and pay tables.

Unfortunately the table, by itself, does not present you with the "perfect strategy" for
playing that machine. The strategy comes from an analysis of the pay table , if you were
to do it yourself....or, there is a number of software programs which compute a "good
strategy" (often not the "perfect" strategy) for playing a particular machine.

Reading some books about vp is a valuable thing to do. Some authors are Paymar, Scott
and Boyd.

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@...> wrote:

As a newcomer both to VP and this forum, I want to ask you how exactly
such a table may be used in a casino.

I too printed the table, to have it with me.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@>
wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks so much for your excellent post. I love playing deuces and
> agree that there are so many varient pay tables, that it can be a
> little confusing to do the math, while seeking a machine in the
> casino.

#7

jackessiebabe wrote:

With the chart in hand, you need only compare the printed paytable
on the machine to the payback % on the chart. Since this will
obviate both mental and computer calculation in order to make this
determination, a lot of time can be saved, by the DW player, while
attempting to reach "long-term" nirvana! (-:

I'll suggest (being the PITA that I clearly have enjoyed becoming :wink:
that such a chart is near useless in the casino.

At home, it's very valuable as a means of identifying which games you
might be interested in playing.

However, by the time you get to the casino, you should know the
paytables of the games that you're sufficiently practiced to
accurately play by heart and stick to playing those games. Further,
your research in advance of your visit should be strong enough to tell
you where the games are that you want to play.

Ok, you might want to pack the chart along so that if you see an
unfamilar paytable in the casino you can look it up, just as you might
use a bird guide in the wilds. But don't confuse it with a care and
feeding guide :wink:

- Harryyn

#8

Harry: I agree in general, especially before taking a major trip to
LV or AC, where everything good has been pretty much scouted and
reported. But in the smaller markets (such as Colorado) some of the
good machines are still hiding. I usually try to spend a little time
looking around at what might be available, and I'm constantly
surprised by the variety of paytables. Having a few charts helps weed
out the bad ones. If I ever find a good one, I'll know what to
practice for future trips. These charts are good for scouting, but
apart from that, they don't offer much.

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

jackessiebabe wrote:
> With the chart in hand, you need only compare the printed paytable
> on the machine to the payback % on the chart. Since this will
> obviate both mental and computer calculation in order to make this
> determination, a lot of time can be saved, by the DW player, while
> attempting to reach "long-term" nirvana! (-:

I'll suggest (being the PITA that I clearly have enjoyed becoming :wink:
that such a chart is near useless in the casino.

At home, it's very valuable as a means of identifying which games you
might be interested in playing.

However, by the time you get to the casino, you should know the
paytables of the games that you're sufficiently practiced to
accurately play by heart and stick to playing those games. Further,
your research in advance of your visit should be strong enough to tell
you where the games are that you want to play.

Ok, you might want to pack the chart along so that if you see an
unfamilar paytable in the casino you can look it up, just as you might
use a bird guide in the wilds. But don't confuse it with a care and
feeding guide :wink:

- Harryyn

#9

Thanks for all the answers. Babe gets the prize (may her next draw be
a Royal Flush) for the most useful response. That the table posted by
John Douglas helps to choose a machine you want to play on,
considering that the Casinos constantly move these machines around,
and (I didn't know this before!) change the pay tables.

What else can they change?

Can they spike the RNG? As a programmer, I know that RNG's give a
uniform distribution, making each of the available (52, 47, whatever)
cards equally likely to be picked. But I can easily program it to
throw away a number, not every time, but every so often, if that is
going to result in a Royal Flush. This would be akin to loaded dice.

On the same point, are all the VP machines in a casino networked, and
served from a super machine cranking out Random Numbers? Or does each
machine have its own RNG? (probably the latter)

Years ago (perhaps in late 80's) I attended an Intel seminar, where
they were touting their new product, Flash Memory. One of the
applications mentioned was that casinos can reprogram machines on the
fly, if a certain machine is being too "loose". Or some thing to that
effect.

Do the state gambling commissions perform periodic checks on a sample
of the machines?

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...>
wrote:

Hi Adams Myth.

Welcome to vpFREE!

When scouting in the casino for the best available DW pay

schedules,

···

the chart will useful in determining the long term payback of the
available DW machines.

With the chart in hand , you need only compare the printed paytable
on the machine to the payback % on the chart. Since this will
obviate both mental and computer calculation in order to make this
determination, a lot of time can be saved, by the DW player, while
attempting to reach "long-term" nirvana! (-:

Good luck!
~Babe~

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Adams Myth" <Adams_Myth@> wrote:
As a newcomer both to VP and this forum, I want to ask you how
exactly such a table may be used in a casino. I too printed the
table, to have it with me.

===============================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@> wrote:
Thanks so much for your excellent post. I love playing deuces and
agree that there are so many varient pay tables, that it can be
little confusing to do the math, while seeking a machine in the
casino.

#10

I think we're on exactly the same wavelength, murph ...

murphyfields wrote

Harry: I agree in general, especially before taking a major trip to
LV or AC ... But in the smaller markets (such as Colorado) some of the
good machines are still hiding. I usually try to spend a little time
looking around at what might be available, and I'm constantly
surprised by the variety of paytables. Having a few charts helps weed
out the bad ones. If I ever find a good one, I'll know what to
practice for future trips. These charts are good for scouting, but
apart from that, they don't offer much.

I wrote:

···

> Ok, you might want to pack the chart along so that if you see an
> unfamilar paytable in the casino you can look it up ...

#11

becoming ;).........

···

In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

I'll suggest (being the PITA that I clearly have enjoyed

-----------------------------------------------
Well Harry, you said it I didn't. Actually, I'm sure that you're
much more of a PITD (I elect to use the more polite "derriere") to
Bev, than to anyone on the board! (-:
-----------------------------------------------

that such a chart is near useless in the casino. At home,

it's very valuable as a means of identifying which games you
might be interested in playing.

However, by the time you get to the casino, you should know the
paytables of the games that you're sufficiently practiced to
accurately play by heart and stick to playing those games. Further,
your research in advance of your visit should be strong enough to
tell you where the games are that you want to play.
--------------------------------------------------
All very true, Harry. While we play VP, we should all also be well-
rested, alert and avoid alcholic beverages. We should endeavor to
ignore the chatter of a friendly neighbor, or the distraction of a
well endowed cocktail waitress, in a low cut top. LOL!

Now compare those wise admonishments to what the average
recreational player (particularly a newbie) does when first arriving
in Casino Fantasyland. Most of what they know they shouldn't do is
forgotten in the rush of excitement.

IMO (which I have never considered particularly humble) John's well
drawn chart has a place in the average player's pocket or purse
during most casino visits. It will enable the player to instantly
recognize playable DW machines, and to avoid the others.

You and I may have played millions of hands of various DW games,
over the years we've spent practicing VP on our computers and
playing it in casinos. It may be instantly apparent to us, w/o
benefit of a written chart, the EV of any DW game. Or, perhaps as
with less experienced players, we get too can get caught up in the
exciting moment and momentarily forget the actual EV of every
available DW pay schedule. In that event, John's chart might be a
real boon.
----------------------------------------------------

Ok, you might want to pack the chart along so that if you

see an unfamilar paytable in the casino you can look it up, just as
you might use a bird guide in the wilds. But don't confuse it with
a care and feeding guide :wink:
Harryyn
-----------------------------------------------------
Harry, no one suggested that the DW chart could or should substitute
for usual amount of study and practice. I only suggested that it
could be an auxiliary time-saver for some players.
~Babe~
-------------------------------------------------------
jackessiebabe wrote:
......With the chart in hand, you need only compare the printed
paytable on the machine to the payback % on the chart..........

#12

Adams Myth wrote:

Thanks for all the answers. Babe gets the prize (may her next draw be
a Royal Flush) for the most useful response. That the table posted by
John Douglas helps to choose a machine you want to play on,
considering that the Casinos constantly move these machines around,
and (I didn't know this before!) change the pay tables.

I won't beat a dead horse ... but I'll add -- the ER's on that chart
are near meaningless if you don't know the proper strategy in advance
of finding the machine. (And if you have the strategy down, you're
going to know the related paytable pat -- you won't need the chart).

If you're consulting the chart in the casino in order to select a
machine for play, then YOUR ER is lower than stated and the play is
likely a poor one -- no matter what the chart ER says. It's a
preparation tool for home and, perhaps, a tool for scouting in advance
of your next visit to the casino.

- H.

#13

Harry was a little harsh in his initial statement that the list is useless, but he did qualify the statement later. The main purpose of the paytable list is for knowing what games are worth playing, and for scouting such games at a casino. Once you know the return percentage, and that the game actually exists in a casino you want to play at, you can decide if the game is worth playing. As pointed out, that's only the first step: then you have to practice it before actually playing it, buy or develop a strategy card, etc.
   
  Now to address your other questions. While it's theoretically possible for a casino to change their chips to cheat, it's unlikely, at least in Nevada. The Gaming Commission randomly tests chips against a known master, and a casino risks losing their gaming license if such cheating is discovered. Why should they cheat when they can rob people blind legally? All they have to do is lower their paytables, or add more slots that return far less than video poker machines, in general. So cheating is possible but unlikely. Probably a little more likely outside of Nevada and Atlantic City, but still unlikely because it's unnecessary.
   
  Each machine has it's own RNG, except I think in Class II states but I'm still confused by all that, so I'll let Bill or someone more knowlegeable answer.

···

Adams Myth <Adams_Myth@HotMail.Com> wrote:
  Can they spike the RNG?

On the same point, are all the VP machines in a casino networked, and
served from a super machine cranking out Random Numbers? Or does each
machine have its own RNG? (probably the latter)

Do the state gambling commissions perform periodic checks on a sample
of the machines?

---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

Adams Myth wrote:

What else can they change?
Can they spike the RNG?

This comes up for frequent discussion. The consensus is that in AC
and LV state supervision is sufficient to have assurance that RNG's
are fair.

In other venues, it's been suggested that if you're playing a machine
manufactured by a firm who has machines in LV, there's comfort to be
found in the machine's likely fairness. NV stipulates that a machine
on the floor in NV must operate similarly no matter where else it's
placed outside of the state. I'm reasonably comfortable with this
logic (although if I push, I can think of potential loopholes).

On the same point, are all the VP machines in a casino networked, and
served from a super machine cranking out Random Numbers? Or does each
machine have its own RNG? (probably the latter)

Machines in LV and AC are individually controlled by installed
programming and RNG.

Years ago (perhaps in late 80's) I attended an Intel seminar, where
they were touting their new product, Flash Memory. One of the
applications mentioned was that casinos can reprogram machines on the
fly, if a certain machine is being too "loose". Or some thing to that
effect.

Flash memory is in use in many forms of equipment these days,
including PC's. I don't believe it's currently in use in vp equipment.

However, it's finding a new application in some slot machines -- the
ability to change payout frequencies and even entire slot machine
format (an example might be Double Diamond to WOF) from a central
source ... eliminating the manual need to change out machines as well
as greater flexibility in making changes.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised to see the technology extended to
vp machines. However, hand frequencies would still be determined
strictly by player strategy. What might change is a game's paytable
or the game variant (DDB vs DB, e.g.).

Maybe a casino down the road will add strong paytables during slow
hours and reduce them during busy periods. Perhaps they'll up the
stakes on some machines during peak periods and a $.25/$.50/$1
multidenom will become $1/$2/$5.

But you can be comfortable that it won't be used to unfairly change
machine odds.

- Harry

#15

Hi John,

What in the world would you expect the chart to offer other than
what (I think) we probably both agree it might provide; an efficent
time-saving device for scouting good potential DW play?

It is obviously not a short-cut to snaring Deuces or Royals, or even
successful and profitable play. It is merely another FREE aid,
prepared by an esteemed member, who graciously shared his work with
the list,.

Anyone is free to use it or not use it as they see fit.
~Babe~

···

-----------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@...> wrote:
  
Harry: I agree in general, especially before taking a major trip to
LV or AC, where everything good has been pretty much scouted and
reported. But in the smaller markets (such as Colorado) some of the
good machines are still hiding. I usually try to spend a little time
looking around at what might be available, and I'm constantly
surprised by the variety of paytables. Having a few charts helps
weed out the bad ones. If I ever find a good one, I'll know what to
practice for future trips. These charts are good for scouting, but
apart from that, they don't offer much.
- John

#16

that chart are near meaningless if you don't know the proper
strategy in advance of finding the machine. (And if you have the
strategy down, you're going to know the related paytable pat -- you
won't need the chart).

···

-In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

I won't beat a dead horse ... but I'll add -- the ER's on

--------------------------------------------------
Harry, the horse is not only dead, but skeletonized! When did I
suggest that using this simple chart in a casino obviated knowing or
practicing proper stategy?
---------------------------------------------------

If you're consulting the chart in the casino in order to

select a machine for play, then YOUR ER is lower than stated and the
play is likely a poor one -- no matter what the chart ER says. It's
a preparation tool for home and, perhaps, a tool for scouting in
advance of your next visit to the casino.
- H.
-----------------------------------------------------
OK, Harry. We'll agree to politely disagree on this topic. I do
see your point, but don't completely agree with your basic premise.

In any case, this in no way negates my initial thanks to John for
publishing his chart.

Respectfully,
~Babe~

#17

Just to be a PITA, also...

It was Einstein who is claimed to have questioned why should one memorize anything for
which there is a common and easy to use "reference".

<smile>

.....bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

by the time you get to the casino, you should know the
paytables of the games that you're sufficiently practiced to
accurately play by heart

- Harryyn

#18

Babe:

I didn't mean to dismiss the charts or any of the other FREE
assistance that I constantly receive from this board. I find this
type of chart very helpful when I am scouting. I just don't want the
newbies (of which I include myself) to think that using this chart
will lead to a winning session. To avoid some of the confusion I
experienced in the beginning, I offered my take on what these charts
can and can't offer.

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:

Hi John,

What in the world would you expect the chart to offer other than
what (I think) we probably both agree it might provide; an efficent
time-saving device for scouting good potential DW play?

It is obviously not a short-cut to snaring Deuces or Royals, or even
successful and profitable play. It is merely another FREE aid,
prepared by an esteemed member, who graciously shared his work with
the list,.

Anyone is free to use it or not use it as they see fit.
~Babe~
-----------------------------------------------
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@> wrote:
  
Harry: I agree in general, especially before taking a major trip to
LV or AC, where everything good has been pretty much scouted and
reported. But in the smaller markets (such as Colorado) some of the
good machines are still hiding. I usually try to spend a little time
looking around at what might be available, and I'm constantly
surprised by the variety of paytables. Having a few charts helps
weed out the bad ones. If I ever find a good one, I'll know what to
practice for future trips. These charts are good for scouting, but
apart from that, they don't offer much.
- John

#19

bornloser1537 wrote:

Just to be a PITA, also...

It was Einstein who is claimed to have questioned why should one
memorize anything for which there is a common and easy to use
"reference".

Yep. I heard that he kept a list of all the atomic elements and their
abbreviations up his sleeve so he could manage every time he saw an
element referenced by the 2 letter abbr.

btw, I guarantee that (in almost all cases) a player who references a
strategy sheet for every hand sacrifices a minimum of .2% to errors
vs. a practiced player who has strategy down pretty cold (maybe
consulting the sheet once or twice an hour at most, let's say).

- H.

#20

Hi John,

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate your position, and cannot
disagree with the logic of your premise. I think that basically
you, Harry and I were on the same page, but reading a different
paragraph.

The last thing that I would advocate is to mislead a newbie VP
player.

After some private posting with Harry, I have concluded the
following:

1. John Douglass' DW chart was well prepared and very useful in
selecting the best DW machines available in a particular casino.
I'm sure that he has the sincere thanks of many of us for posting
this valuable information.

2. My post was less than clear about the chart's potential use in
a casino setting. What I failed to elucidate was that the player
should use the chart to scout for the best paying DW available,
noting the appropriate paytable. He should then return home and,
utilizing the chart and his notes, program (change the paytables on
existing DW games) software accordingly.

3. The chart is not a panacea for winning or playing accurately. It
is merely a very helpful adjunct to practicing proper strategy at
home.

4. Once the strategy has been mastered on the home computer, head
for the casino in the sure knowledge that you are playing the best
available DW game, in the best possible way to maximum bankroll and
minimize losses.

I hope that this makes the opinions expressed in my posts, more
understandable.

This will be my last post on the subject. I do know when to cease
and desist! (-: (sometimes)

Whether we are availing ourselves of John Douglass' chart, or not,
I hope that we all hit multible deuces, multiple times!

Regards,
~Babe~

···

===========================================
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@...> wrote:

I didn't mean to dismiss the charts or any of the other FREE
assistance that I constantly receive from this board. I find this
type of chart very helpful when I am scouting. I just don't want the
newbies (of which I include myself) to think that using this chart
will lead to a winning session. To avoid some of the confusion I
experienced in the beginning, I offered my take on what these charts
can and can't offer.
- John