vpFREE2 Forums

VP Pros: All but extinct

#1

It's obvious to anyone who has been keeping track of things that
fullpay VP in general is a dying duck. There are diminishing
opportunities for the recreational player, and and far as the "pros"
go:

It's still possible to eke out about $10/hr from playing .25 VP; If
you can manage about 800 ERRORLESS hands/hr playing FPJW or FPJW,
then your net result will be $7/hr +comps/cashback +mailers. The
casinos that still offer .25 FPDW in any quantity either slash your
comps in half (Stations/Fiesta), or exclude you from mailed promos
and bounceback cash if you don't play negative EV VP (Palms,
Stations). So even getting the additional .3 of EV you need to get
up to $10/hr is a real struggle.

The alternative is to play dollars, where the best game is FPDB with
its 100.15% return (worse net reurn than .25 FPDW). Places that
offer cashback do NOT offer 10/7 DB in dollar denoms. The other
alternative is to play $1 NSUD on days when there are double points,
but places like Coast, etc. that pay cashback only have the double
points days once or twice a month.

There are other isolated plays, like Triple Play 10/7 DB at the
Horseshoe with .25 cashback, that may offer some opportunities. The
bottom line is that a VP "pro" is subsisting on iron rations of $7-
10/hr while being poised to jump on the occasional play that may
offer a return of $12-15/hr. That's why you see the very occasional
excellent play being flooded by pros: a case of too many wolves and
not enough prey.

I have no doubt that there are quite a few "pros" and "semi-pros"
who are doing just that, and hoping the fog will lift one day and
there will be plenty of good VP out there again. Until the casino
market gets saturated, and the lemmings stop streaming into McCarran
to go to their $249 rooms, and play a little $25 minimum 6-5
blackjack before going to see Princess Celine at $210 a pop (perhaps
stopping for an $8 drink at the bar or a $29 buffet), then the trend
of, "We don't need to give you no steenkin' good VP" will continue.

#2

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333" <rockofjello333@y...>
wrote:

There are other isolated plays, like Triple Play 10/7 DB at the
Horseshoe with .25 cashback, that may offer some opportunities.

Since the reopening under Harrahs/MTR the cash back has been reduced
to .20%

Don the Dentist

#3

What are you trying to achieve with this email? Are you trying to
scare others off of your precious patch of turf? Are you ignorant?
Are you too lazy to work to find the good plays?

I just don't get it. You hint at vast conspiracies in which IGT and
the casinos collude to break the law, but when you are called out on
this point, you deny that you're even suggesting the possibility.

You whine about how the good plays are disappearing and how no one can
be anything more than marginally successful. Yet, when you hear or
observe others who find good plays or are successful at what they're
doing, you rail about their very existence, e.g. the persons you
pejoratively labeled as "Team Nerd."

I don't want this to be perceived as a negative attack against you. I
am sure that you are a nice person and that everyone who knows you
considers you a prince among men. However, I am attacking the content
of your messages. I want everyone who is reading your contributions
to understand that you are pursuing a hidden agenda.

My off-the-cuff analysis of what you're doing is that you're
deliberately painting a exaggeratedly negative picture of the current
video poker environment to protect your own opportunities. How petty,
if that's the case.

I understand completely that someone might choose not to share every
tidbit of information he has regarding video poker opportunities. I
certainly don't. I try to give back about the same value that I
receive from vpFREE. (There are a number of ways to read that, heh.)
But someone who goes out of his way to be inaccurate, for any reason,
is contemptible.

Here's my take on the past, present, and likely future environment.
There's plenty of opportunity for someone who's willing to put in the
requisite homework and legwork. Anyone of reasonable aptitude could
probably scrape out a modest living just playing video poker. Almost
anyone who has that reasonable aptitude could probably make more money
doing something else, however. If there's not A LOT of personal
utility in living the lifestyle necessary, I would advise anyone
considering it to give it a lot of thought before quitting his day job

···

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 21:25:26 -0000, rockofjello333 <rockofjello333@yahoo.com> wrote:

It's obvious to anyone who has been keeping track of things that
fullpay VP in general is a dying duck. There are diminishing
opportunities for the recreational player, and and far as the "pros"
go:

It's still possible to eke out about $10/hr from playing .25 VP; If
you can manage about 800 ERRORLESS hands/hr playing FPJW or FPJW,
then your net result will be $7/hr +comps/cashback +mailers. The
casinos that still offer .25 FPDW in any quantity either slash your
comps in half (Stations/Fiesta), or exclude you from mailed promos
and bounceback cash if you don't play negative EV VP (Palms,
Stations). So even getting the additional .3 of EV you need to get
up to $10/hr is a real struggle.

The alternative is to play dollars, where the best game is FPDB with
its 100.15% return (worse net reurn than .25 FPDW). Places that
offer cashback do NOT offer 10/7 DB in dollar denoms. The other
alternative is to play $1 NSUD on days when there are double points,
but places like Coast, etc. that pay cashback only have the double
points days once or twice a month.

There are other isolated plays, like Triple Play 10/7 DB at the
Horseshoe with .25 cashback, that may offer some opportunities. The
bottom line is that a VP "pro" is subsisting on iron rations of $7-
10/hr while being poised to jump on the occasional play that may
offer a return of $12-15/hr. That's why you see the very occasional
excellent play being flooded by pros: a case of too many wolves and
not enough prey.

I have no doubt that there are quite a few "pros" and "semi-pros"
who are doing just that, and hoping the fog will lift one day and
there will be plenty of good VP out there again. Until the casino
market gets saturated, and the lemmings stop streaming into McCarran
to go to their $249 rooms, and play a little $25 minimum 6-5
blackjack before going to see Princess Celine at $210 a pop (perhaps
stopping for an $8 drink at the bar or a $29 buffet), then the trend
of, "We don't need to give you no steenkin' good VP" will continue.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

--
Bruno Magli
Try my shoes!

#4

We have our first winner of a two week paid vacation
from posting on vpFREE for violating the "No Negative
Personal" comments policy.

FWIW, Bruno Magli has been a friend of mine for a long
time and has a penchant for devil's advocate causes and
stirring the pot. He could easily have worded his prize
winning post to have conveyed the same message,
without getting personal. but didn't apply sufficient effort.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 1 Dec 2004 at 14:41, Bruno Magli wrote:

... I don't want this to be perceived as a negative
attack against you ...

#5

Wait a minute. Bruno gets PAID for being negative??

Woo hoo! Screw video poker. I know a way I CAN quit
my day job!

carlos

···

--- vpFREE <vpFREE@Cox.net> wrote:

On 1 Dec 2004 at 14:41, Bruno Magli wrote:

> ... I don't want this to be perceived as a
negative
> attack against you ...

We have our first winner of a two week paid

vacation...[etc]

#6

> ... I don't want this to be perceived as a negative
> attack against you ...

We have our first winner of a two week paid vacation
from posting on vpFREE for violating the "No Negative
Personal" comments policy.

Since you are allowing the offending post to linger, I'd like to
answer his basic accusation, for the edification of all who may be
misled:

My net worth is 1.5 million dollars, and I have no ongoing
obligations, financial, familial, or otherwise. I make my living
from managing my investments and property, in the course of which I
move sums far in excess of what I ever have bet on video poker in
any given year.
I play VP approximately two evenings a week, for a total of about
ten hours a week. Although I try to play the best games available, I
am happy with a breakeven play since my goals are strictly
recreational.
During the period 1995-1999 I was a .25-denom "pro" in every sense
of the word, since I derived my living SOLELY from gambling/VP.
During that time, I maintained only a loose association with the
rest of the Vegas VP "pro" circle, since then-as now--I disapproved
of their methods and approaches, and felt sure that they would wind
up killing the golden goose of easy-money VP.
I don't object to Team Nerd or anyone else making all the money they
can--hallelujah to them--AS LONG AS THEY DON'T KILL THE PLAY IN THE
PROCESS. What I object to is not the EXISTENCE of pros--after all, I
WAS one--but the WAY in which they operate. Maybe, with my stating
this distinction for the umpteenth time, people will finally
understand it....

FWIW, Bruno Magli has been a friend of mine for a long
time and has a penchant for devil's advocate causes and
stirring the pot.

Then maybe you could tell me what got him so exercised about my
posts on this topic? Is HE a VP pro, and if not, where does the ax
he has to grind come from? I'm frankly puzzled.

He could easily have worded his prize

winning post to have conveyed the same message,
without getting personal. but didn't apply sufficient effort.

How do you re-word a personal attack so that it isn't personal? The
substance of his post was that I was a liar and a fraud.

This reminds me of a letter I read between a 19th-century playwright
and a critic, who was apparently a friend of said playwright but
nonetheless published a scathing review of his latest play,
appending to his review the disclaimer that he hoped that his
criticism would not affect their friendship. The reply:

Dear Sir,

The next time we meet in the street I shall knock you down, but I
hope that will not affect our friendship.

--ROJ

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

On 1 Dec 2004 at 14:41, Bruno Magli wrote:

#7

Then maybe you could tell me what got him so exercised about my
posts on this topic? Is HE a VP pro, and if not, where does the ax he
has to grind come from? I'm frankly puzzled.

You'll have to ask him.

> He could easily have worded his prize
> winning post to have conveyed the same message,
> without getting personal. but didn't apply sufficient effort.

How do you re-word a personal attack so that it isn't personal? The
substance of his post was that I was a liar and a fraud.

I didn't view the personal comments as the substance of
his post. It appeared to me that he included them gratuitously.

I was saying that he could have disagreed with your post
point by point, without making it personal.

This reminds me of a letter I read between a 19th-century playwright and
a critic, who was apparently a friend of said playwright but nonetheless
published a scathing review of his latest play, appending to his review
the disclaimer that he hoped that his criticism would not affect their
friendship.

Do you think the critic did the right thing?

The reply:

The next time we meet in the street I shall knock you down, but I
hope that will not affect our friendship.

Do you approve of the playwright's response, and are you
suggesting that I should beware of Bruno Magli's wrath?

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 2 Dec 2004 at 1:43, rockofjello333 wrote:

#8

Wait a minute! You call THAT negative. Why that Bruno guy is too dumb
to write a negative post. Even if his Mother and his whole family
helped him, he couldn't write a negative post. Negative post writing
is an art that takes talent, high intelligence, personality and good
looks, all of which, I suspect, are absent in Bruno.

Now, what's the runner up prize?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFREE" <vpFREE@C...> wrote:

On 1 Dec 2004 at 14:41, Bruno Magli wrote:

> ... I don't want this to be perceived as a negative
> attack against you ...

We have our first winner of a two week paid vacation
from posting on vpFREE for violating the "No Negative
Personal" comments policy.

FWIW, Bruno Magli has been a friend of mine for a long
time and has a penchant for devil's advocate causes and
stirring the pot. He could easily have worded his prize
winning post to have conveyed the same message,
without getting personal. but didn't apply sufficient effort.

vpFREE Administrator

#9

I try not to discriminate, and fair is fair, so you
get a two week paid vacation also.

Thanks for the chuckle.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 2 Dec 2004 at 4:49, chiefvrwc wrote:

Now, what's the runner up prize?

#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"

<rockofjello333@y...>

wrote:
>
> There are other isolated plays, like Triple Play 10/7 DB at the
> Horseshoe with .25 cashback, that may offer some opportunities.

Since the reopening under Harrahs/MTR the cash back has been

reduced

to .20%

You need the post card to get the triple points. Also you have to

bring the post card with you each day you play and go to the slot
club with it each day.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "dds2124" <dds6@c...> wrote:

#11

Do you approve of the playwright's response, and are you
suggesting that I should beware of Bruno Magli's wrath?

vpFREE Administrator

Actually, I was struck by the disingenuousness of Bruno's writing
three paragraphs of attacks and insults, and then saying,

... I don't want this to be perceived as a negative
> attack against you ...

And then resuming the attack! Like the playwright, including some
kind of disclaimer in the middle of a flaming diatribe doesn't
soften the impact in the slightest, and instead is a hypocritical
attempt to assuage one's conscience from the feeling that his tone
may have been somewhat overboard.

So no, I don't think you have to worry about Bruno; he apparently
likes you. You must never have disagreed with him.

#12

Don't quit your day job. The prospect for paid vacations on vpFREE from the
positive expectation of being negative are tied directly to a popular
interest in good video poker. The maximum EV play would be to blanket
insult everyone in the forum now, thereby earning multiple paid vacations
(perhaps a paid vacation for life?) but I don't wish to become the kind of
pro that would abuse a play like this. I prefer that recreational abusers
profit from their invective and insults for years to come. :wink:

···

_____

From: Carlos Lebron [mailto:caleb…@…com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 5:49 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] VP Pros: All but extinct

Wait a minute. Bruno gets PAID for being negative??

Woo hoo! Screw video poker. I know a way I CAN quit
my day job!

carlos

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]