vpFREE2 Forums

VP Free Censor

#1

Below is a post by a VPfree member. I replied and received the
following.

I will not approve anymore posts from you about non-random
machines or that over-emphasize luck, that are based on casual,
anecdotal evidence or questionable sources.

You may post it on FREEvpFREE if you like.

vpFREE Administrator

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

···

From: "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 7:47am
Subject: Re: paytables and payouts

You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with numerous slot techs,
slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the money from the
machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar owner. They all said the
same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a certain %. When it's
ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is behind that % it must
catch up.

I find it quite strange why people will not, or don't want to accept
this.

So when I was dealt a royal the other day, no skill involved, on a 6/5
bp machine, terrible pay table, the machine was way behind and had to
catch up.

Other than the basic card holds, the only skill involved is having a
stop loss and win goal.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jiminsonv" <jiminsonv@...> wrote:

  I live here in vegas and play VP several times a week. Mostly the
quarter variety. I have a question. Now slot machines are programmed

to

pay out a certain percentage of what they take in right. Are not VP
machines set to a certain percentage also? i mean regardless of what
the paytable is set at...full pay or not. If that machine is

programmed

to keep 5% of what it takes in, maybe your two pair doesnt become a
full house.I have read all the song and dance ( Rob Singer & Bob
Dancer) If there is anyone with the knowledge of how they work

please

let me know. Thanks and Good Luck to all.......Jim

#2

truthseekr99 wrote:

You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with numerous slot techs,
slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the money from the
machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar owner. They all said
the same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a certain %. When
it's ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is behind that % it
must catch up.

I find it quite strange why people will not, or don't want to accept
this.

If I wanted to understand the basics of a variable annuity, I wouldn't
look for insight from a premiums clerk in an insurance company.

The law in most (if not all) states is clear that there can't be any
secondary decision process employed in a machine that would alter the
probabilities of the deal from those that govern any standard deck of
cards.

The optimal expected return of a game is based upon those
probabilities and the assumption that the cards are held employing
optimal strategy. Actual return will be governed by the statistical
luck of the deal and actual player strategy.

You're welcome to your grasp of the play mechanics, but the active
vpFREE participants will likewise find that strange. In fact, that's
why contributions such as yours above won't find a constructive
discussion on the forum -- for you or anyone else.

Quite simply, vpFREE is only going to serve to frustrate you and I
expect you have better avenues in which to expend your energies.

- Harry

#3

Here's the law in Nevada. You will find that the law REQUIREs random
selection of cards and disallows any secondary programming.
Especially note 14.040 section 5).

http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg14.pdf

Below is a post by a VPfree member. I replied and received the
following.

I will not approve anymore posts from you about non-random
machines or that over-emphasize luck, that are based on casual,
anecdotal evidence or questionable sources.

You may post it on FREEvpFREE if you like.

vpFREE Administrator

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

From: "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...>
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 7:47am
Subject: Re: paytables and payouts

You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with numerous slot techs,
slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the money from the
machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar owner. They all said

the

same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a certain %. When

it's

ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is behind that % it must
catch up.

I find it quite strange why people will not, or don't want to accept
this.

So when I was dealt a royal the other day, no skill involved, on a

6/5

bp machine, terrible pay table, the machine was way behind and had

to

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...> wrote:

catch up.

Other than the basic card holds, the only skill involved is having a
stop loss and win goal.

#4

5. Must not automatically alter paytables or any
function of the device based on internal
computation of the hold percentage.
14.040(5)

So, again, why doesn't this very specific regulation
absolutely destroy the 'singer' nonsense, as well as
the laughable anecdotes about "slowing down" or
"catching up"?

···

--- rgmustain <rgmustain@att.net> wrote:

Here's the law in Nevada. You will find that the law
REQUIREs random
selection of cards and disallows any secondary
programming.
Especially note 14.040 section 5).

http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg14.pdf

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "truthseekr99"
<ydoc21@...> wrote:
>
> Below is a post by a VPfree member. I replied and
received the
> following.
>
> I will not approve anymore posts from you about
non-random
> machines or that over-emphasize luck, that are
based on casual,
> anecdotal evidence or questionable sources.
>
> You may post it on FREEvpFREE if you like.
>
> vpFREE Administrator
>
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> From: "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...>
> Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 7:47am
> Subject: Re: paytables and payouts
>
> You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with
numerous slot techs,
> slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the
money from the
> machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar
owner. They all said
the
> same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a
certain %. When
it's
> ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is
behind that % it must
> catch up.
>
> I find it quite strange why people will not, or
don't want to accept
> this.
>
> So when I was dealt a royal the other day, no
skill involved, on a
6/5
> bp machine, terrible pay table, the machine was
way behind and had
to
> catch up.
>
> Other than the basic card holds, the only skill
involved is having a
> stop loss and win goal.
>

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#5

Isn't it possible that the slot techs etc. are simply referring to
what is commonly called the law of averages or the law of large
numbers...that over the long run, observed frequency of events will be
close to the theoretical values? Nature has a way of evening things
out, but coins and dice don't have a brain or computer chip forcing
this to happen. (see wikipedia for a discussion of the law of
averages and law of large numbers)

By the same token, a VP machine does not need to monitor past payouts
in order to assure a certain %. This is accounted for by the random
number generator. If it is working properly, each event is
independent, there is no "equaliser" chip, and none is needed.

So, truthseekr99, in a vague sort of way you are correct...the machine
will eventually "catch up" but that does not imply that if a certain
machine has not paid a royal for the past million hands that your
chances are any better or worse than they were after it paid its last
royal.

When you received your royal, you were lucky. It happened. But if
you were to play that machine day in and day out, and someone else
plays a michine with a better pay table day in and day out, luck will
become less important, and you will lose more money than the person
playing the better table.

If you are absolutely convinced that skill is unimportant, then am I
to assume that you never hold any cards, since this would be a waste
of time? That would be the no skill approach. Or would you agree that
you should at least hold all paying hands, which requires the skill of
recognizing which are paying hands. And if you agree that this
approach improves things, why not agree that other changes may help as
well?

- John

P.S. Sorry to Harry Porter. I am not sure why my first message was
sent to you and not the forum. That's never happened to me before.

···

From: "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...>
Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 7:47am
Subject: Re: paytables and payouts

You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with numerous slot techs,
slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the money from the
machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar owner. They all said the
same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a certain %. When it's
ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is behind that % it must
catch up.

I find it quite strange why people will not, or don't want to accept
this.

So when I was dealt a royal the other day, no skill involved, on a 6/5
bp machine, terrible pay table, the machine was way behind and had to
catch up.

Other than the basic card holds, the only skill involved is having a
stop loss and win goal.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jiminsonv" <jiminsonv@> wrote:
>
>
> I live here in vegas and play VP several times a week. Mostly the
> quarter variety. I have a question. Now slot machines are programmed
to
> pay out a certain percentage of what they take in right. Are not VP
> machines set to a certain percentage also? i mean regardless of what
> the paytable is set at...full pay or not. If that machine is
programmed
> to keep 5% of what it takes in, maybe your two pair doesnt become a
> full house.I have read all the song and dance ( Rob Singer & Bob
> Dancer) If there is anyone with the knowledge of how they work
please
> let me know. Thanks and Good Luck to all.......Jim
>

#6

Didn't this come up about three weeks ago? The group
was shown the specific gaming control board regulation
which unambiguously makes it illegal to have a "catch
up" or "catch down" subroutine.

···

--- murphyfields <jkludge@juno.com> wrote:

Isn't it possible that the slot techs etc. are
simply referring to
what is commonly called the law of averages or the
law of large
numbers...that over the long run, observed frequency
of events will be
close to the theoretical values? Nature has a way
of evening things
out, but coins and dice don't have a brain or
computer chip forcing
this to happen. (see wikipedia for a discussion of
the law of
averages and law of large numbers)

By the same token, a VP machine does not need to
monitor past payouts
in order to assure a certain %. This is accounted
for by the random
number generator. If it is working properly, each
event is
independent, there is no "equaliser" chip, and none
is needed.

So, truthseekr99, in a vague sort of way you are
correct...the machine
will eventually "catch up" but that does not imply
that if a certain
machine has not paid a royal for the past million
hands that your
chances are any better or worse than they were after
it paid its last
royal.

When you received your royal, you were lucky. It
happened. But if
you were to play that machine day in and day out,
and someone else
plays a michine with a better pay table day in and
day out, luck will
become less important, and you will lose more money
than the person
playing the better table.

If you are absolutely convinced that skill is
unimportant, then am I
to assume that you never hold any cards, since this
would be a waste
of time? That would be the no skill approach. Or
would you agree that
you should at least hold all paying hands, which
requires the skill of
recognizing which are paying hands. And if you
agree that this
approach improves things, why not agree that other
changes may help as
well?

- John

P.S. Sorry to Harry Porter. I am not sure why my
first message was
sent to you and not the forum. That's never
happened to me before.

> From: "truthseekr99" <ydoc21@...>
> Date: Sun Jun 4, 2006 7:47am
> Subject: Re: paytables and payouts
>
> You are absolutely correct. I have spoken with
numerous slot techs,
> slot supers and even a gentleman that collects the
money from the
> machines at the gas stations, oh and a vp bar
owner. They all said the
> same thing. By law each machine has to pay out a
certain %. When it's
> ahead of that % it must slow down, when it is
behind that % it must
> catch up.
>
> I find it quite strange why people will not, or
don't want to accept
> this.
>
> So when I was dealt a royal the other day, no
skill involved, on a 6/5
> bp machine, terrible pay table, the machine was
way behind and had to
> catch up.
>
> Other than the basic card holds, the only skill
involved is having a
> stop loss and win goal.
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jiminsonv"
<jiminsonv@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I live here in vegas and play VP several times
a week. Mostly the
> > quarter variety. I have a question. Now slot
machines are programmed
> to
> > pay out a certain percentage of what they take
in right. Are not VP
> > machines set to a certain percentage also? i
mean regardless of what
> > the paytable is set at...full pay or not. If
that machine is
> programmed
> > to keep 5% of what it takes in, maybe your two
pair doesnt become a
> > full house.I have read all the song and dance (
Rob Singer & Bob
> > Dancer) If there is anyone with the knowledge of
how they work
> please
> > let me know. Thanks and Good Luck to
all.......Jim
> >
>

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