vpFREE2 Forums

vp Double Dependency & ER

lawrenceboxer wrote:

>>The point is that when you choose to double, you're extending the
same
play -- you haven't collected the hand win and then rebet it. The ER
of the ultimate pays, whether you double or not, are unchanged.<<

That's the problem. You have WON the hand, regardless of whether or
not you decide to collect it or RE-BET it on double-up. By your
logic, any play is dependent on the prior play if losing would
prevent further play, rather than viewing each bet as independent.
Not only is it a different bet, it's a different GAME. Oranges ain't
apples, even if they're in the same basket.

But if you're not allowed to eat an orange until after eating an
apple, then eating an orange becomes a dependent event.

I have stated that the double-up is a dependent event because you
don't have the option to play it until after you have achieved a
payoff on the VP game.

Elliot has claimed that the double-up is a separate event because you
have the option of either cashing out the payoff from the VP hand or
playing the double-up.

That does not make it a separate event because you do not have an
option to then put the money back into the machine and play just the
double-up. There is no way to play just the double-up.

I stand by four statements:

1. The double-up option does not change the overall EV of your play
on the machine.

2. The double-up option does increase the variance. For weekend
warriors, that may be considered "good" in the same way that Double
Double Bonus Poker is "good" by offering the chance of a moderate
size jackpot. For long-term players, increased variance is usually
considered undesirable.

3. Playing the double-up slows your play on the VP game. If it's a
sub-100% game then that's good (it does not increase the EV, but it
reduces your loss rate simply because you play fewer hands).

4. My recommendation is to double up any time that you would be
willing to risk the amount of the current payoff on the flip of a
fair coin, with no side benefits (slot club points, comps, etc.).

Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar, author of "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor and publisher of "Video Poker Times" newsletter
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind"
- Louis Pasteur

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all, I joined recently and have been lurking around reading
posts, until this one. Dan, I must add a couple of thoughts to your
writings — hope you don't mind me using you to introduce myself to
the group.

I start by saying that when given the chance to "double up", I have
already won the hand and am now playing with MY money. Comps, points
and promotional credits are all issued on a "coin in" basis, and a
double is not included in this.

Dan, you wrote:
     3. Playing the double-up slows your play on the VP game. If
     it's a sub-100% game then that's good (it does not increase
     the EV, but it reduces your loss rate simply because you play
     fewer hands).

More importantly, where is it written that doubling is a 50/50
chance? How do we know that there are not more losing combinations
than winning?

As a reference, I point to MegaBucks. If each reel has 10 symbols and
10 spaces your chances of lining up a jackpot would be 20 x 20 x20,
or one in 8,000. However, RNG produce millions of possible
combinations. These same RNG can easily be used to give the house any
pre-programed edge. Let us not assume it is a 50/50 chance.

Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Nice to meet you all.

• Vegas Dealer

The 50/50 chance assumes a fair RNG and a fair deck. Both of which
are required by law in Nevada (and other states). Of course, on any
given hand you may have a 100% chance or 0% chance.

Dick

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "The Vegas Dealer"
<thevegasdealer@y...> wrote:

Hello all, I joined recently and have been lurking around reading
posts, until this one. Dan, I must add a couple of thoughts to

your

writings — hope you don't mind me using you to introduce myself to
the group.

I start by saying that when given the chance to "double up", I have
already won the hand and am now playing with MY money. Comps,

points

and promotional credits are all issued on a "coin in" basis, and a
double is not included in this.

Dan, you wrote:
     3. Playing the double-up slows your play on the VP game. If
     it's a sub-100% game then that's good (it does not increase
     the EV, but it reduces your loss rate simply because you play
     fewer hands).

More importantly, where is it written that doubling is a 50/50
chance? How do we know that there are not more losing combinations
than winning?

As a reference, I point to MegaBucks. If each reel has 10 symbols

and

10 spaces your chances of lining up a jackpot would be 20 x 20 x20,
or one in 8,000. However, RNG produce millions of possible
combinations. These same RNG can easily be used to give the house

any

···

pre-programed edge. Let us not assume it is a 50/50 chance.

Well, that is my 2 cents worth. Nice to meet you all.

• Vegas Dealer