I'm not sure how you did it, but from my rambling and non-detailed original post, you gleamed the exact issues I am wrestling with, and you VERY clearly gave some insight.
After reading your explanations, it WAS the "penalty" cards that were really confusing me. It was driving me crazy when some times the suggested strategy was to hold the Kh Qh 5H and other times, I was supposedly only to keep the Hh Qh.... Your explanation was perfect, and I also think I'll take your advice and stick with my basic strategy and "expand my wings" to include a few "advanced" moves this trip, but not drive myself crazy playing perfect Advanced play...as you say, until I get better at it, i'd be spending about 2 minutes per had looking over my "cheat sheet", and Im sure I'd still mess up a few.
Thanks for the advice on the different poker simulation games. I do use WinPoker and yes, it was the "penalty" issues that was confusing me. I've also been playing Video Poker Hunt 2.0, totally free product and seems to be pretty good from a basic standpoint.
I can guarantee that I'll be saving your reply for future reference, and again, you have my THANKS as I think I'll now be able to once again enjoy this upcoming trip. Honestly, I was so confused, I almost considered just giving up.
You have my gratitude, most people would have just ignored my email, and you not only replied but in great details and I appreciate it.
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:45:40 -0000
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: I am now SO confused! <G>
TKeep123 wrote:
We've been going to Vegas to play VP for about 18 months now, low
bankroll, mostly just for fun and if we come out ahead of playing
the slots like we did in the past, we consider it a good thing. We
have been very consistent, mainly just playing 10/7 DB or 9/6 JOB
and using very basic strategy charts, nothing too fancy.
We've had fun and some good trips, some bad, and we both managed
to hit our first Royal Flushs on the last trip in April.
Now, we're headed back to Vegas late this week and are thinking
about expanding to perhaps more version of poker and/or advancing to
some of the higher levels of strategy cards....and that's where it's
getting complicated.
I've been playing various VP Tutorial software packages, looked
at about 10 different "strategy cards" (for both 10/7 and 9/6) and
I'm finding that there are a number of differnt opinions on what
should be held in a few certain situations. After a few more days
of research, I'm so confused, I'm tempted to just go back to my
little 9/6 machine at Main Street and play my basic strategy and
just enjoy the trip.
Am I the only one that's been through this?
Fred, you have plenty of company -- novice and advanced players alike.
I'm going to read a little between the lines of your post and assume
the likely source of your confusion is related to the impact that
"penalty cards" can have on optimal play strategy.
My definition for a "penalty card" is any discard from your hand that,
were it instead available in the remaining cards for the draw, could
form a winning hand when combined with your held cards. In other
words, by virtue of the fact that you're discarding it, you have fewer
winning hand possibilities. This potentially affects play strategy.
--------
An example of this impact is in 10/7 DB. Consider when you're dealt
suited KQx, where x is a low card of the same suit. The "basic"
strategy hold is just the KQ (assuming that the other cards in the
hand don't present a stronger hold, like a pair).
However, if you're considering an "advanced" strategy that takes into
account penalty cards in the hand, the guidance would be to hold all
three cards of KQx in those cases where a fourth card is present that
might form a straight with the KQ.
E.g. - for <Kh Qh 5h 8s 4c>, you would hold the KQ, but for <Kh Qh 5h
9s 4c> you would hold the KQ5. The reasoning is that in the first
hand you have more straight possibilities on the draw then in the
second, where the 9s is no longer available in the draw cards. In
this case, that's sufficient to reduce the value of the KQ hold in the
second hand to the point where going for the flush is more valuable.
--------
The question is whether to play the basic strategy or the advanced
strategy. There's a disagreement about the answer to this question
among some players.
It's to be noted that the difference in overall game expected return
is relatively small, generally well under .01% for most games. In the
case of 9/6 Jacks it's about .001%; for 10/7 DB it's .011%.
Some writers on the subject, most notably Skip Hughes, advise that
most players stick to basic strategy and ignore penalty card
situations. Skip remarks on the fact that the ER that can be gained
via an advanced strategy very likely may be negated many times over if
the distraction of penalty card consideration results in just a
fraction of greater player errors and that, even with perfect play,
the additional time required to consider penalty cards might well
reduce play speed to the point where any hourly advantage from
advanced strategy is cancelled out.
On the other hand, Bob Dancer makes no bones about his sentiment that
serious players will move onto advanced strategy when their
proficiency supports the move. After all, a $1 10/7 DB may be leaving
as much as $.50 an hour on the table if ignoring penalty card
situations entirely. The most frequently occuring penalty card
related holds are pretty simple to master so if you've nailed basic
strategy, why not incorporate a handful of additional rules into your
play.
-------
FWIW, I personally straddle these two positions in my play. Frankly,
given that a 10/7 player risks a loss of 160 bets or more in any given
hour, the consideration of a factor involving 1/10 of a bet in an hour
rates as a pretty low priority for most players. How much to tip a
beverage server is a question of greater economic consequence for a $1
and under player.
Until I have a basic game strategy down fairly pat (for me, that means
that in my winpoker practice my "Return %" -- reported in the "Error
Effect on Total Return" Analysis screen -- is consistently above
99.9%), I don't even bother with penalty considerations. It's a safe
bet that they're going to be a harmful distraction to my play.
But once I achieve that level of accuracy, the simple fact is that I
have game strategy cold but am suffering from the affect of
inattention in my play -- I'm making "dumb" mistakes. I find that the
additional attention I pay to the cards when seeking out penalty card
situations hones my accuracy further and it's a winning situation all
the way around.
I don't sweat every single penalty card situation, in the manner that
is often the focus of Dancer's articles. Instead I concentrate on the
most frequently occuring penalties, which in most games are limited to
a relatively small handful of situations. Winpoker practice quickly
highlights which ones those are.
--------
I personally prefer Winpoker for my tutor practice. I find the look
and feel most comfortable. But, when it comes to master the basic
strategy of a game, it's a real pain in the rear. There's no
effective way to accurately ignore penalty card situations.
Frugal VP is an outstanding product for basic strategy practice (it
also has some exceptional advanced analysis features that I highly
value). Both software products are essential members of my vp
arsenal. Frankly, there are some games I would never dream of
introducing to my wife via winpoker without fearing I'd arrive home
one day to find she'd attempted the "touchscreen" method in holding
cards -- using a hammer.
Having responded in typical fashion with a long-winded reply, I'll
touch on your final statement ... by all means stick to basic strategy
for now -- it's a very prudent move. But don't be afraid to spread
your wings and approach new games. JB play is satisfying, but on its
own it makes for a very bland vp diet.
- Harry
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