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Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

Here is a link to an article in this weeks edition of In Business Las
Vegas written by Liz Benston. It contains some astute observations
and intelligent analysis by yours truely. :slight_smile:

http://www.inbusinesslasvegas.com/inbusiness/apr_18_03/gaming.html

I can only hope that this will have a positive impact on VP
inventories. Casinos who care about what players want to play will be
the winners in the long run. Casinos that replace full pay machines
with machines that have a higher hold percentage are underestimating
the drop off in $ wagered on the machines and the impact of losing
customers who demand full pay VP. -JFR

Here is a link to an article in this weeks edition of In Business

Las

Vegas written by Liz Benston. It contains some astute observations
and intelligent analysis by yours truely. :slight_smile:

<snip from above article>

"This decreed the end of full pay video poker," Badra said. "It will
survive for a couple of years, probably more as a loss leader than as
a product in itself, but its end is coming." "

this is my opinion overall. Except I think that in all but a few
cases in *less than* 2 years +ev VP will be a thing of the past.

The question is: keep playing and risking that bankroll for a
diminished return or get out now with a sure profit?

and in gambling in general:
the corps have squeezed that turnip for as much as possible.
thank God for Live Poker

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Reller" <JFReller@a...> wrote:

Quote from article:

"This decreed the end of full pay video poker," Badra said. "It will
survive for a couple of years, probably more as a loss leader than as
a product in itself, but its end is coming." "

The observation about fpvp surviving a couple of years as a "loss leader" is
right on target. But if casinos recognize that it brings in clientelle who
also spend money on other games (the definition of a loss leader) with a
higher house edge, then why eliminate it at all!!? Keeping an inventory of
fpvp intact is good for the casino! Now who volunteers to tell them that?

lb

Quote from article:

> "This decreed the end of full pay video poker," Badra said. "It will
> survive for a couple of years, probably more as a loss leader than as
> a product in itself, but its end is coming." "

The observation about fpvp surviving a couple of years as a "loss

leader" is

right on target.

Well, I don't think the term loss leader is nearly accurate. Casinos
don't lose money on full pay video poker, at least not most of it.
Suncoast was incredibly successful with tons of fpvp. I have seen it
stated several times by people who seem to know, that casinos make a 2
- 3% average on fpvp.

That may not be as much as they make on other vp and slots but it's
not a loss. A machine that sits there not making anything, taking up
space on the floor, that's a loss. I don't think this is about cutting
losses. I think it's about trying to increase profits.
Sal

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Boxer" <ljboxer@e...> wrote:

I have seen it stated several times by people who seem to know, that
casinos make a 2 - 3% average on fpvp.

Yes, Sal, I've stated it here a few times myself (2%-5%), but my argument
then and now is that even IF it's a loss leader, that's reason enough to
keep it intact, due to the slight over all house edge long term, plus the
money spent on other games, and the good will created. And I certainly
wouldn't underestimate the value of good will.

> I have seen it stated several times by people who seem to know, that
>casinos make a 2 - 3% average on fpvp.

Yes, Sal, I've stated it here a few times myself (2%-5%), but my

argument

then and now is that even IF it's a loss leader, that's reason enough to
keep it intact, due to the slight over all house edge long term,

plus the

money spent on other games, and the good will created. And I certainly
wouldn't underestimate the value of good will.

Then we're in total agreement. I'm sure any casino owner would love
to have us all playing those multiline slots where their edge is 8 or
10%. :slight_smile:
  
Sal

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lawrence Boxer" <ljboxer@e...> wrote:

Sally wrote:
I have seen it

stated several times by people who seem to know, that casinos make a
2% - 3% average on fpvp ...
I don't think this is about cutting
losses. I think it's about trying to increase profits.

Sal, in these choice words you've summed up the whole situation.

If Coast properties is successful in keeping those less knowledgable
"butts in the seats" who are responsible for that 2%-3% hold -- now
playing NSUD with a larger house win -- then the new inventory
strategy will be a real winner for them. They'll cheerfully watch
those of us who play the game with 99.5%+ accuracy (profitably, as a
group, while sucking comps down - meager as they may be these days)
walk to their competitors.

Yes, there'll be more empty seats once we walk and the NSUD converts
play a few shorter hours. And retail sales will correspondingly fall.
But there's a very strong chance that overhead costs will fall
significantly while gross margins fatten. That's a situation any
business would desire.

However, if the players who give the house the bulk of their win
presently are smart enough to walk, then we'll see Coast turn tail
before the end of the year. Hopefully this latter situation will
prevail and we'll smile in confident satisfaction that they really
f-u'd. It hinges on that other group of players, however.

Now, I'm some 2500 miles away, so any observations I have on the
actual situation are second hand at best. But I haven't witnessed
strong evidence that this migration of players is happening in large
numbers. There was a report on vpmail today that Orleans was pretty
desolate at 1pm today -- encouraging news indeed. I hope to see more
reports like this, particularly concerning peak evening hours, but
this was the first first-hand report that seemed to carry some weight.

Of greater concern to me, however, have been the sentiments that there
isn't a larger risk to full pay at other properties. But, of course,
that's a topic best explored on the "FREE" vpFREE forum.

- Harry

Harry,

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Variable overhead costs in a casino are mostly labor and maintenance. Are you saying that by not playing the machines they won't break down thereby reducing overhead?

Please explain how you reason that gross margins will go up. I see total hold down, most overhead fixed therefore squeezing gross margins.

For a long time I have contended that the knowledgeable player is the player on the margin. While not as profitable as the bulk, they are significant and a small number can have a real impact on the bottom line.

Regardless of the general opinion on this board, even most of us do not play to a big advantage, very few can even achieve the 101.2% that FPDW pays on double points days at Coasts. Even at that rate we are only earning $12 / hour (at 800 hands/hour). Assume 100 perfect players are playing an average of 5 hours the casino won't even notice $6000. Even if they are playing 24 hours it's less than $30,000 per day over the long run. On the 120 machines they had at one location that's not noticeable.

On the other hand assume that even 100 of us average 99.5% return. Then we are losing, on average, $5 / hour. 100 players playing 5 hours at .5% disadvantage earns $2500 / day for the casino. Also not enough to be noticed.

The .5% is a real number. I know at least one casino that has calculated that as the return on FPDW. They are perfectly satisfied with that return on a few machines considering how much they hold on others. This is smart casino management as opposed to the other.

B

···

Yes, there'll be more empty seats once we walk and the NSUD converts
play a few shorter hours. And retail sales will correspondingly fall.
But there's a very strong chance that overhead costs will fall
significantly while gross margins fatten. That's a situation any
business would desire.

Bill,

I'll start by saying that I'm speaking in some very rough terms, but I
don't think I'm playing fast and loose with the facts of the situation.

What I'm suggesting is that their new strategy is expected to reduce
the numbers in their least profitable segment of their customers.
Variable overhead (vs. fixed) is related to the volume of business,
i.e. number of customers they serve -- reduce customers and variable
overhead falls.

My reference to gross margins is a general accounting reference to
what in the casino industry is, I believe, more correctly terms
revenue. Whatever the case, my meaning is the net absolute machine
win (coin in less coin out) before any expense is considered. While
the win from the "knowledgeable" players who leave will be removed
from the equation, I'm suggesting that the win from the patrons who
stay will increase in an amount that will more than offset the lost
business.

It's my expectation that while they will play less, as a whole they'll
part with more money. They may cap their trip losses so that they
won't lose much more, if any, on their losing trips. But on their
winning trips they'll generally come away with less. On the whole,
over the course of a year, they'll leave more dollars with the casino.
(Admittedly, I'm simplifying the economics here, but I don't think
the overall picture is significantly distorted from the reality that
will bear out.)

Bottom line, if the strategy is successful and they maintain a
sufficient number of players who comprise their most profitable FPDW
players at present then they'll achieve a very desirable result of
increasing gross margin while reducing variable expense at the same time.

However, the lynchpin of that strategy is holding onto the profitable
segment who are currently responsible for a present 2%-3% average hold
on FPDW. And their ability to accomplish that is questionable. But
if I had to lay a bet on that, I'd favor the inertia that I suspect is
typical of the less knowledgable player. Let's hope I'm wrong and
Coast will find out that they have a bit to learn about "smart casino
management".

By the way, let me note that the 99.5% accuracy number I cited is the
% of the theoretical return achieved by the player after accounting
for strategy errors - i.e. the player has a strategy cost of .5% and
therefore plays FPDW at an expected return of 100.2% (before points).
In winpoker practice, I achieve 99.94% accuracy (I'm referring to
"Error Effect Return %" - the critical statistic in determining
effective play return). My wife, an occasional vacationing player who
doesn't sweat the game achieves in practice around that 99.5% figure.
Considering the large number of LV regulars who've really nailed the
game, I don't think the 99.5% average knowledgeable player guestimate
is likely to be far off the mark.

My point is that this segment of "knowledgeable" players is not a
profitable segment. And whether the expected return of that segment
is 100.2% or even as low as 99.5%, factor in cashback, promotion
expense, limited comps, and rooms for out of town players and this is
not a profitable segment. And I don't expect that this is an
inconsequential segment of the business. We may be talking a minority
of their players, but these tend to be the highest volume players in
the house. And I personally know more than a few who've done very
nicely, although admittedly that's anecdotal evidence -- but I count
it significant considering my distance from LV and infrequency of visits.

Bill, I want to stress that I appreciate that you took the time to
question my statements and I hope it doesn't appear that I'm trying to
hit you over the head with a sledgehammer in reply. Clearly, I tend
to be a little long-winded. Understand that I simply want to be clear
in communcating the specifics of my concerns.

- Harry

Harry,

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Variable overhead costs in a

casino are

mostly labor and maintenance. Are you saying that by not playing the
machines they won't break down thereby reducing overhead?

Please explain how you reason that gross margins will go up. I see

total

hold down, most overhead fixed therefore squeezing gross margins.

For a long time I have contended that the knowledgeable player is the
player on the margin. While not as profitable as the bulk, they are
significant and a small number can have a real impact on the bottom

line.

Regardless of the general opinion on this board, even most of us do not
play to a big advantage, very few can even achieve the 101.2% that FPDW
pays on double points days at Coasts. Even at that rate we are only

earning

$12 / hour (at 800 hands/hour). Assume 100 perfect players are

playing an

average of 5 hours the casino won't even notice $6000. Even if they are
playing 24 hours it's less than $30,000 per day over the long run.

On the

120 machines they had at one location that's not noticeable.

On the other hand assume that even 100 of us average 99.5% return.

Then we

are losing, on average, $5 / hour. 100 players playing 5 hours at .5%
disadvantage earns $2500 / day for the casino. Also not enough to be

noticed.

The .5% is a real number. I know at least one casino that has

calculated

that as the return on FPDW. They are perfectly satisfied with that

return

on a few machines considering how much they hold on others. This is

smart

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <billc140@m...> wrote:

casino management as opposed to the other.

B

>Yes, there'll be more empty seats once we walk and the NSUD converts
>play a few shorter hours. And retail sales will correspondingly fall.
>But there's a very strong chance that overhead costs will fall
>significantly while gross margins fatten. That's a situation any
>business would desire.

I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing from the
old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's four
years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it when it
happens.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: timmer [mailto:timm…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:08 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Reller" <JFReller@a...> wrote:

Here is a link to an article in this weeks edition of In Business

Las

Vegas written by Liz Benston. It contains some astute observations
and intelligent analysis by yours truely. :slight_smile:

<snip from above article>

"This decreed the end of full pay video poker," Badra said. "It will
survive for a couple of years, probably more as a loss leader than as
a product in itself, but its end is coming." "

this is my opinion overall. Except I think that in all but a few
cases in *less than* 2 years +ev VP will be a thing of the past.

The question is: keep playing and risking that bankroll for a
diminished return or get out now with a sure profit?

and in gambling in general:
the corps have squeezed that turnip for as much as possible.
thank God for Live Poker

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

tables

I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing from
the
old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's
four
years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it when
it
happens.

Seems to me that it's been a couple years and it's worse than it ever
has been. How much more do you need to see to believe it?
Scot

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy C [mailto:ran…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:14 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay

First of all, let me say that I'm only talking about VP below the $1 level.
Obviously $1+ VP HAS deteriorated. But honestly, I see little change overall
from 4 years ago. Remember, back then Stations properties were a VP
wasteland. And advantage .50 VP was almost non-existent. And there's at
least as much if not more playable multi-line progressive VP then ever
before. I just finished a 12 hour stint where the ER was almost 106%. My
personal results have stayed constant for the last 4 years including the 1st
quarter of 2003. Like I said before, I've been hearing this VP+
"end-of-the-world" stuff for 4 years now. Yes, the Coast situation is
disheartening. Yes, the potential for doom and gloom is there. But is it
already time to declare the end of VP+? Hardly. I'll believe it when it
really is dead.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Scot Krause [mailto:krauseinve…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:46 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy C [mailto:ran…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:14 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay
tables

I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing from
the
old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's
four
years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it when
it
happens.

Seems to me that it's been a couple years and it's worse than it ever
has been. How much more do you need to see to believe it?
Scot

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

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<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=250097.3088435.4504612.1728375/D=egroupmai
l/S=:HM/A=1546236/rand=152920030>

vpFREE Links:
http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When the coast pulled their FPDW the total of all FPDW machines in
this town was severly diminished.

This is a fact.

timmer

First of all, let me say that I'm only talking about VP below the

$1 level.

Obviously $1+ VP HAS deteriorated. But honestly, I see little

change overall

from 4 years ago. Remember, back then Stations properties were a VP
wasteland. And advantage .50 VP was almost non-existent. And

there's at

least as much if not more playable multi-line progressive VP then

ever

before. I just finished a 12 hour stint where the ER was almost

106%. My

personal results have stayed constant for the last 4 years

including the 1st

quarter of 2003. Like I said before, I've been hearing this VP+
"end-of-the-world" stuff for 4 years now. Yes, the Coast situation

is

disheartening. Yes, the potential for doom and gloom is there. But

is it

already time to declare the end of VP+? Hardly. I'll believe it

when it

really is dead.

From: Scot Krause [mailto:krauseinvegas@w…]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:46 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay

tables

From: Randy C [mailto:randyc@u…]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:14 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay
tables

I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing

from

the
old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's
four
years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it

when

it
happens.

Seems to me that it's been a couple years and it's worse than it

ever

has been. How much more do you need to see to believe it?
Scot

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=250097.3088435.4504612.1728375/D=egroupweb/S=17
050657

32:HM/A=1546236/R=0/*http:/ads.track-star.com/linker.ts?

ts=1;2;313;11_1_52>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?

M=250097.3088435.4504612.1728375/D=egroupmai

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@u...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
-----Original Message-----
l/S=:HM/A=1546236/rand=152920030>

vpFREE Links:
http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK

···

-----Original Message-----
From: timmer [mailto:timm…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 6:58 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

When the coast pulled their FPDW the total of all FPDW machines in
this town was severly diminished.

This is a fact.

timmer

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@u...> wrote:

First of all, let me say that I'm only talking about VP below the

$1 level.

Obviously $1+ VP HAS deteriorated. But honestly, I see little

change overall

from 4 years ago. Remember, back then Stations properties were a VP
wasteland. And advantage .50 VP was almost non-existent. And

there's at

least as much if not more playable multi-line progressive VP then

ever

before. I just finished a 12 hour stint where the ER was almost

106%. My

personal results have stayed constant for the last 4 years

including the 1st

quarter of 2003. Like I said before, I've been hearing this VP+
"end-of-the-world" stuff for 4 years now. Yes, the Coast situation

is

disheartening. Yes, the potential for doom and gloom is there. But

is it

already time to declare the end of VP+? Hardly. I'll believe it

when it

really is dead.

-----Original Message-----
From: Scot Krause [mailto:krauseinvegas@w…]
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:46 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay

tables

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy C [mailto:randyc@u…]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:14 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay
tables

I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing

from

the
old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's
four
years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it

when

it
happens.

Seems to me that it's been a couple years and it's worse than it

ever

has been. How much more do you need to see to believe it?
Scot

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=250097.3088435.4504612.1728375/D=egroupweb/S=17
050657

32:HM/A=1546236/R=0/*http:/ads.track-star.com/linker.ts?

ts=1;2;313;11_1_52>

<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?

M=250097.3088435.4504612.1728375/D=egroupmai

l/S=:HM/A=1546236/rand=152920030>

vpFREE Links:
http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Everytime I get a message from Randy C. I'm asked to download Japanese text.
Any one else have a problem with his posts?
stu in sf

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy C" <randyc@uclalumni.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

OK

-----Original Message-----
From: timmer [mailto:timm…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 6:58 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

When the coast pulled their FPDW the total of all FPDW machines in
this town was severly diminished.

This is a fact.

timmer

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Randy C" <randyc@u…> wrote:
> First of all, let me say that I'm only talking about VP below the
$1 level.
> Obviously $1+ VP HAS deteriorated. But honestly, I see little
change overall
> from 4 years ago. Remember, back then Stations properties were a VP
> wasteland. And advantage .50 VP was almost non-existent. And
there's at
> least as much if not more playable multi-line progressive VP then
ever
> before. I just finished a 12 hour stint where the ER was almost
106%. My
> personal results have stayed constant for the last 4 years
including the 1st
> quarter of 2003. Like I said before, I've been hearing this VP+
> "end-of-the-world" stuff for 4 years now. Yes, the Coast situation
is
> disheartening. Yes, the potential for doom and gloom is there. But
is it
> already time to declare the end of VP+? Hardly. I'll believe it
when it
> really is dead.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scot Krause [mailto:krauseinvegas@w…]
> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2003 1:46 PM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay
tables
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy C [mailto:randyc@u…]
> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:14 AM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay
> tables
>
> I moved to LV four years ago. Even at that time all I kept hearing
from
> the
> old-timers was how VP+ would be dead in a couple of years. Well it's
> four
> years later and I'm still hearing the same things. I'll believe it
when
> it
> happens.
>
> Seems to me that it's been a couple years and it's worse than it
ever
> has been. How much more do you need to see to believe it?
> Scot
>
>

Everytime I get a message from Randy C. I'm asked to download Japanese

text.

Any one else have a problem with his posts?
stu in sf

Thanks, Stu. I too started to have the same thing happen and was about to
email Randy to see if he knew the scoop. I am using OE 6 software. I had
just decided that the problem was most probably my own personal ineptitude
so I was happy to see your post. Randy, do you have any ideas?
                                   Nudge

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "1000MPH" <1000mph@msn.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Video poker world abuzz about tighter pay tables

Everytime I get a message from Randy C. I'm asked to download Japanese

text.
> Any one else have a problem with his posts?
> stu in sf

Thanks, Stu. I too started to have the same thing happen and was about to
email Randy to see if he knew the scoop. I am using OE 6 software. I had
just decided that the problem was most probably my own personal ineptitude
so I was happy to see your post. Randy, do you have any ideas?
Nudge

I am using Netscape 7 and have not seen a thing out of the ordinary.

Bob

···

has any one down loaded japanese text yet? It might be fun. Or lucky.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Sommer - Top of the World Coins" <NL7HT@barrow.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Japanese Text/wasRe: Video poker world abuzz about
tighter pay tables

> Everytime I get a message from Randy C. I'm asked to download Japanese

> text.
> > Any one else have a problem with his posts?
> > stu in sf
>
> Thanks, Stu. I too started to have the same thing happen and was about

to

> email Randy to see if he knew the scoop. I am using OE 6 software. I had
> just decided that the problem was most probably my own personal

ineptitude

> so I was happy to see your post. Randy, do you have any ideas?
> Nudge

I am using Netscape 7 and have not seen a thing out of the ordinary.

Bob

>

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