Video Poker - Optimum Play second edition

[Dan2]

rockofjello333 wrote:

> Before criticizing me, you should get to know me and my publications
> a little better.

Dan

I have indeed read your publications and they were of considerable
help to me AT THE TIME THAY WERE WRITTEN.

Thank you for acknowledging their value to a new player. Perhaps the new edition is not very valuable to YOU now because you have already made use of the information in the first edition and have progressed beyond needing the new information. OK, you are an advanced player. Even so, you may find the new stuff on Risk of Ruin worth the modest price of the book by itself.

My publications are written for beginning to intermediate recreational players, and I have never claimed differently. If you have bought the second edition, you might want to give it to a beginning player friend for Christmas.

Conditions out in the "real world" have changed so much now that
profitable VP play is a questionable prospect at best. Yes, I know
that at present, there are still a few opportunities to play quarter
deuces wild (although every week it seems like one more casino has
killed off its inventory of those machines), albeit with drastically
reduced slot club benefits and the exclusion from slot club mailing
lists); ironically, it may be better for a recreational player to
play 9/6 DDB and not be stamped "Undesirable" by a slot club's
computer.

You seem to think that I am not in the "real world." Even though I recently moved away, I still go to Las Vegas several times a year and play a lot. I find that conditions for myself and the players that I write for are as good or better than they were when I began writing on video poker. Just because you can't find a $40.00/hr opportunity does not negate that fact.

I play nothing but full pay Deuces Wild and 10/7 Double Bonus. I'm wide open, using my real name for both my writing and slot clubs, and I've never been stamped "undesirable" by any casino. But then, I never play two machines at once, I never sell or buy credits on the machine to/from another player, I rarely ask to have a machine locked up, and I do tip for good service.

I'm sorry if my language was unduly harsh. I was under the
impression, from third party reports I will admit, that in order to
supplement your income, you had accepted consulting positions with
the casinos. You are, of course, entitled to do what you wish in
that regard, but I do not see how one can simultaneously be a casino
advisor and a player advocate. Again, if this is not actually the
case, my apologies.

Thank you. I have NEVER consulted for a casino. I have always been ONLY a player advocate. On a couple occasions I have made recommendations to a slot manager to turn a losing situation on good games into a winning situation for the casino by installing MORE good games so they can't all be hogged by skilled players.

Your book contained a great deal of practical information (as opposed to a recent book by a certain BD, with whom I am NOT confusing you), but almost all that information is now out of date.

Every day I get comments from NEW customers about how helpful my book is. There is nothing in the book that is not useful for a beginning to intermediate player in today's market.

The possibilities simply do not exist any longer. I feel it is a
disservice to continue to disseminate this information without
warning readers how much, much more difficult VP conditions have
become. To re-use an analogy, millions of copies of "Beat the
Dealer" were sold AFTER the casinos went to shoes with three decks
cut off, and preferential shuffling in hand-held games. They should
have been taken off the shelf and replaced with a heavily revised
new edition reflecting the worsened playing conditions.

I repeat, the playing conditions for the players I write for are as good or better now than ten years ago. It's obvious that you and I are different kinds of players.

"Beat The Dealer" became obsolete because game rules changed (and continue to change), playing conditions changed (there is a lot of "heat" on skilled players), and much better playing strategies have been developed.

The game rules have not changed for video poker (in Nevada and most places they still are completely random, with each unseen card having equal probability of appearing at any time, and payoffs listed clearly on the front of the machine), playing conditions have changed very little for quarter players who don't act like vultures, and no one has developed a better strategy. Indeed, no one can develop a better strategy because video poker is a game of complete information with unchanging rules. For each possible payoff table, the strategy is unchanging.

I am also puzzled by your statement that you continue to make a
living playing VP. How do you you make a hourly wage that would do
more than feed a hamster? I know how you can pull in $8/hr, but that
doesn't beat McDonald's.

Where on Earth did you pick that up? In the twelve years that I have been writing about video poker, I have NEVER said that I make a living playing video poker. I have always stated that I am a skilled recreational player. You're right that I might make as much money at McDonald's as I do playing video poker, and without the variance, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Which brings us back to the meat of the matter. You don't seem to understand that I write for people who play video poker for fun. Perhaps you are no longer in that category. You should be getting your information in the online forums. If I wrote about that rapidly changing world of "professional" players, it would be obsolete before it could be published.

In a later post, someone had said that you may be confusing me with Bob Dancer, and you wrote:

No, I wasn't, although you're right in that Dancer is probably more
matching of my description than Paymar is. I consider them birds of
a feather, however.

You sure know how to insult a guy. I don't think it would be possible for Dancer and me to be any more different, and there are few people whom I dislike more. I would never do the things he seems so proud of in his book.

I wish you good fortune in your kind of play,
Dan

···

--
Dan Paymar
Author of best selling book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor/Publisher of VP newsletter "Video Poker Times"
Developer of VP analysis/trainer software "Optimum Video Poker"
Visit my web site at www.OptimumPlay.com

"Chance favors the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

[rockofjello333]

rockofjello333 wrote:
Even so, you may find the new stuff on Risk of Ruin worth the

modest

price of the book by itself.

I wouldn't have thought that a subject such as this (valuable as it
may be) wouldn't have been virtually beaten to death by now. If you
can offer a new perspective on some old mathematics, I think it'd be
worth seeing, although personally, I underplay my bankroll so much
that my ROR is probably 0.0000000001%.

My publications are written for beginning to intermediate
recreational players, and I have never claimed differently. If you
have bought the second edition, you might want to give it to a
beginning player friend for Christmas.

Certainly a good idea.

You seem to think that I am not in the "real world." Even though I
recently moved away, I still go to Las Vegas several times a year

and

play a lot. I find that conditions for myself and the players that

I

write for are as good or better than they were when I began

writing

on video poker. Just because you can't find a $40.00/hr

opportunity

does not negate that fact.

I play nothing but full pay Deuces Wild and 10/7 Double Bonus. I'm
wide open, using my real name for both my writing and slot clubs,

and

I've never been stamped "undesirable" by any casino. But then, I
never play two machines at once, I never sell or buy credits on

the

machine to/from another player, I rarely ask to have a machine

locked

up, and I do tip for good service.

I remain sort of puzzled at your assertion that conditions have
IMPROVED. The number of .25 FPDW at Gold Coast has declined from 133
to zero. Stations now comps quarter FPDW players at .0083%. Et
cetera. I can see how things might be considerable still TENABLE,
but BETTER....?

Every day I get comments from NEW customers about how helpful my

book is. There is nothing in the book that is not useful for a
beginning to intermediate player in today's market.

I would have liked to see some mention about how players who only
play positive machines are being routinely excluded from mailed
offers, and how casinos are slashing comp rates for those players.

Also, I hope you updtaed the "where to find good machines" chapter
(by shortening it!).

I repeat, the playing conditions for the players I write for are as
good or better now than ten years ago. It's obvious that you and I
are different kinds of players.

Not really; I may play more dollars than quarters, but my objectives
are still recreational: I don't NEED to make money playing VP. I
play 10/7 DB (a breakeven game at best since one or two errors an
hour, which I feel are unavoidable, slice off that 0.015% REAL
fast), or NSUD. I've even been known to play 9/6 DDB on occasion,
just as I'll now and then sidle up to a pai gow poker table.

The game rules have not changed for video poker (in Nevada and

most places they still are completely random, with each unseen card
having equal probability of appearing at any time, and payoffs
listed clearly on the front of the machine),

Well, I'm sure you know that I have lingering doubts about THAT, but
that's another subject altogether....

playing conditions have changed very little for quarter players who
don't act like vultures, and no one has developed a better strategy.
Indeed, no one can develop a better strategy because video poker is
a game of complete information with unchanging rules. For each
possible payoff table, the strategy is unchanging.

I think the biggest change that you are not acknowledging is the
metamorphosis of the skilled FPDW player from someone who puts $5K a
day into the machines and is therefore a valued customer, to someone
who is trying to beat the casino out of its hard-earned bucks and is
therefore barely tolerated.

>I am also puzzled by your statement that you continue to make a
>living playing VP. How do you you make a hourly wage that would do
>more than feed a hamster? I know how you can pull in $8/hr, but

that >doesn't beat McDonald's.

Where on Earth did you pick that up? In the twelve years that I

have been writing about video poker, I have NEVER said that I make a

living playing video poker. I have always stated that I am a

skilled recreational player. You're right that I might make as much
money at McDonald's as I do playing video poker, and without the
variance, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

I was fairly sure that you has said somewhere (in your book or
elsewhere) that for some period in your life, VP was your primary
source of income. Perhaps you meant VP OVERALL, as in book sales,
etc. and not actually PLAYING VP. My apologies if I'm simply
misremembering.

Which brings us back to the meat of the matter. You don't seem to
understand that I write for people who play video poker for fun.
Perhaps you are no longer in that category. You should be getting
your information in the online forums. If I wrote about that

rapidly changing world of "professional" players, it would be
obsolete before it could be published.

Actually, I AM a recreational player; in fact, my relationship with
the world of "professional" players is a somewhat adversarial one.

In a later post, someone had said that you may be confusing me

with Bob Dancer, and you wrote: >No, I wasn't, although you're right
in that Dancer is probably more >matching of my description than
Paymar is. I consider them birds of>a feather, however.

You sure know how to insult a guy. I don't think it would be

possible for Dancer and me to be any more different, and there are
few people whom I dislike more. I would never do the things he seems
so proud of in his book.

Sorry about that. It occured to me after the fact that no one would
like to be lumped into the same category with the Dracula of video
poker. My comparison--ill-advised, probably--was with all gambling
writers who write "beat the house" books AFTER their particular
method of beating the house is no longer possible (which really bugs
me, as you might surmise).

It's possible that no single source of information gives an accurate
picture of what is a very fluid situation. Your book is an excellent
guideline to interpreting "fresh" information such as that found on
the VP message groups, and would be most valuable used in that
context.

I think I'll go out and hit a royal now. Good luck to you, and to
everybody else, except that chain-smoking guy who drools a lot who
somehow manages to follow me from casino to casino.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:

[Elliot_Frome]

Making no comment on Dan's book, which I have not yet seen, I
believe that Dan is very much correct that for the beginner or
advanced beginner player the landscape has changed for the BETTER
over the past 10 years.

As I am in the middle of the work required for the third edtion
of 'Winning Strategies for Video Poker', I have found myself
removing numerous paytables that pay 94% or so. They were included
in the prior editions because at the time, these were the VERY BEST
those locales had to offer. 7-8 years have passed, and now these
games are completely gone. The laws that made these the maximum
payouts have been abolished and while 100+% video poker may not be
as prevalent as it was 10 years ago, neither is 94% video poker.
Atlantic City has moved from a place where 95-96% was common to a
place where 98% and up is common.

These situations are all BAD for the advanced player or professional
player, but have proven to be a strong positive for the beginner or
occassional player.

JMO

Elliot

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

> rockofjello333 wrote:
> Even so, you may find the new stuff on Risk of Ruin worth the
modest
> price of the book by itself.
>
I wouldn't have thought that a subject such as this (valuable as

it

may be) wouldn't have been virtually beaten to death by now. If

you

can offer a new perspective on some old mathematics, I think it'd

be

worth seeing, although personally, I underplay my bankroll so much
that my ROR is probably 0.0000000001%.

> My publications are written for beginning to intermediate
> recreational players, and I have never claimed differently. If

you

> have bought the second edition, you might want to give it to a
> beginning player friend for Christmas.
>
Certainly a good idea.

> You seem to think that I am not in the "real world." Even though

I

> recently moved away, I still go to Las Vegas several times a

year

and
> play a lot. I find that conditions for myself and the players

that

I
> write for are as good or better than they were when I began
writing
> on video poker. Just because you can't find a $40.00/hr
opportunity
> does not negate that fact.
>
> I play nothing but full pay Deuces Wild and 10/7 Double Bonus.

I'm

> wide open, using my real name for both my writing and slot

clubs,

and
> I've never been stamped "undesirable" by any casino. But then, I
> never play two machines at once, I never sell or buy credits on
the
> machine to/from another player, I rarely ask to have a machine
locked
> up, and I do tip for good service.
>
I remain sort of puzzled at your assertion that conditions have
IMPROVED. The number of .25 FPDW at Gold Coast has declined from

133

to zero. Stations now comps quarter FPDW players at .0083%. Et
cetera. I can see how things might be considerable still TENABLE,
but BETTER....?

>
> Every day I get comments from NEW customers about how helpful my
book is. There is nothing in the book that is not useful for a
beginning to intermediate player in today's market.

I would have liked to see some mention about how players who only
play positive machines are being routinely excluded from mailed
offers, and how casinos are slashing comp rates for those players.

Also, I hope you updtaed the "where to find good machines" chapter
(by shortening it!).
>
>
> I repeat, the playing conditions for the players I write for are

as

> good or better now than ten years ago. It's obvious that you and

I

> are different kinds of players.

Not really; I may play more dollars than quarters, but my

objectives

are still recreational: I don't NEED to make money playing VP. I
play 10/7 DB (a breakeven game at best since one or two errors an
hour, which I feel are unavoidable, slice off that 0.015% REAL
fast), or NSUD. I've even been known to play 9/6 DDB on occasion,
just as I'll now and then sidle up to a pai gow poker table.
>
> The game rules have not changed for video poker (in Nevada and
most places they still are completely random, with each unseen

card

having equal probability of appearing at any time, and payoffs
listed clearly on the front of the machine),

Well, I'm sure you know that I have lingering doubts about THAT,

but

that's another subject altogether....

playing conditions have changed very little for quarter players

who

don't act like vultures, and no one has developed a better

strategy.

Indeed, no one can develop a better strategy because video poker

is

a game of complete information with unchanging rules. For each
possible payoff table, the strategy is unchanging.
>
I think the biggest change that you are not acknowledging is the
metamorphosis of the skilled FPDW player from someone who puts $5K

a

day into the machines and is therefore a valued customer, to

someone

who is trying to beat the casino out of its hard-earned bucks and

is

therefore barely tolerated.

> >I am also puzzled by your statement that you continue to make a
> >living playing VP. How do you you make a hourly wage that would

do

> >more than feed a hamster? I know how you can pull in $8/hr, but
that >doesn't beat McDonald's.
>
> Where on Earth did you pick that up? In the twelve years that I
have been writing about video poker, I have NEVER said that I make

a

> living playing video poker. I have always stated that I am a
skilled recreational player. You're right that I might make as

much

money at McDonald's as I do playing video poker, and without the
variance, but it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.
>
I was fairly sure that you has said somewhere (in your book or
elsewhere) that for some period in your life, VP was your primary
source of income. Perhaps you meant VP OVERALL, as in book sales,
etc. and not actually PLAYING VP. My apologies if I'm simply
misremembering.

> Which brings us back to the meat of the matter. You don't seem

to

> understand that I write for people who play video poker for fun.
> Perhaps you are no longer in that category. You should be

getting

> your information in the online forums. If I wrote about that
rapidly changing world of "professional" players, it would be
obsolete before it could be published.

Actually, I AM a recreational player; in fact, my relationship

with

the world of "professional" players is a somewhat adversarial one.
>
> In a later post, someone had said that you may be confusing me
with Bob Dancer, and you wrote: >No, I wasn't, although you're

right

in that Dancer is probably more >matching of my description than
Paymar is. I consider them birds of>a feather, however.
>
> You sure know how to insult a guy. I don't think it would be
possible for Dancer and me to be any more different, and there are
few people whom I dislike more. I would never do the things he

seems

so proud of in his book.

Sorry about that. It occured to me after the fact that no one

would

like to be lumped into the same category with the Dracula of video
poker. My comparison--ill-advised, probably--was with all gambling
writers who write "beat the house" books AFTER their particular
method of beating the house is no longer possible (which really

bugs

me, as you might surmise).

It's possible that no single source of information gives an

accurate

picture of what is a very fluid situation. Your book is an

excellent

guideline to interpreting "fresh" information such as that found

on

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Dan Paymar <Dan@O...> wrote:
the VP message groups, and would be most valuable used in that
context.

I think I'll go out and hit a royal now. Good luck to you, and to
everybody else, except that chain-smoking guy who drools a lot who
somehow manages to follow me from casino to casino.

[rockofjello333]

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Elliot Frome" <compuflyers@p...>
wrote:

Making no comment on Dan's book, which I have not yet seen, I
believe that Dan is very much correct that for the beginner or
advanced beginner player the landscape has changed for the BETTER
over the past 10 years.

As I am in the middle of the work required for the third edtion
of 'Winning Strategies for Video Poker', I have found myself
removing numerous paytables that pay 94% or so. They were

included

in the prior editions because at the time, these were the VERY

BEST

those locales had to offer. 7-8 years have passed, and now these
games are completely gone. The laws that made these the maximum
payouts have been abolished and while 100+% video poker may not be
as prevalent as it was 10 years ago, neither is 94% video poker.
Atlantic City has moved from a place where 95-96% was common to a
place where 98% and up is common.

These situations are all BAD for the advanced player or

professional

player, but have proven to be a strong positive for the beginner

or

occassional player.

This may be true for non-Nevada jurisdictions, my comment was

referring to Las Vegas (and Reno) alone, since with a very few
exceptions, Nevada is the only worthwhile place to play VP, or to
gamble at all for that matter.
That AC VP is only half as bad as it used to be doesn't change the
fact that it's still horrible. Anyone who purposely gambles at AC
needs to be led gently away from the machines and given a warm glass
of milk and some cookies (but not OUTSIDE--somebody will mug him for
his cookies).
As for the jurisdictions that used to "offer" 94% games, I don't see
how the fact that those games are gone IMPROVES things, any more
than their presence made things worse. Only a sucker ever played
that garbage anyway.