vpFREE2 Forums

Using Strategy Sheets In Casinos

3.2. Re: Using Strategy Sheets In Casinos - Was: Strange Happening Today
Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:06 pm ((PST))

Nevada Statute 465.075 states:

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed establishment to use, or
possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

a. In projecting the outcome of a game

b. In keeping track of the cards played

c. In analyzing the probability of the occurance of an event
relating to the game

d. In analyziing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in
the game except as permitted by the commission.

This statute was enacted many years ago to protect the gambling
houses from blackjack players using concealed blackjack computers.
The problem with the Nevada law is "any device" is vague. The New
Jersey statute specifically says "electronic, electrical, or
mechanical device."

Under the Nevada law someone could construe it so that using a vp
strategy card while at the machine is unlawful, pencil and pad at a
baccarat table is unlawful, recording numbers at a roulette wheel is
unlawful.

Of course we know that in Nevada they will give you pencil and paper
at a baccarat table, let you record previous numbers at the roulette
wheel (many casinos record the numbers for you). And we've all seen
those worthless blackjack strategy cards for sale in casino gift
shops. I've even seen pit bosses passing them out for free. No one
in Nevada has ever been prosecuted for using these "devices" or for
using vp strategy cards.

But there was a strange case in Colorado some years ago. I read
about it in an Arnold Snyder column in Cardplayer Magazine. Snyder
is a blackjack writer. The Colorado statute is an exact copy of
Nevada Statute 465.075. Here is the story:

A man sits down at a backjack table in Blackhawk, Colorado and starts
playing. The betting limit was $5. When he is dealt in he pulls out
a blackjack strategy card of the kind sold in most Nevada casino gift
shops. He was using the strategy card to determine how to play his
hand. Casino personnel alerted the gaming commission and a gaming
agent promptly appeared. After observing the man using the card the
gaming agent arrested the man and charged him with using a "cheating
device." The charge carried a penalty, if convicted, of 6 to 18
months in jail, or a %500 to $5000 fine, or both.

In his article Snyder was looking for a blackjack player who happened
to be a lawyer to defend the man pro bono. I never learned of the
outcome of the case.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the common practice in Las Vegas would be worthwhile evidence, if there's a way to present it as such, that a pencil and paper or a strategy sheet is not a cheating device. I suspect the Colorado gaming agents were dealing with this for the first time in their life, and are not as sophisticated as (I would hope) the agents in NV might be about what the casinos are (should be) worried about. Not to mention the ignorance of the CO casino in terms of PR.

I too would be interested in knowing the outcome of that case - there are definitely NV attorneys who specialize in representing card counters who have been abused (beyond barring), but I've never heard of anyone doing it for free in CO.

Again, I use a card when I need to, but I keep it in my pocket and try to be discreet. Some sessions I never pull it out, and I've even forgotten it or left it in my room and played on with little concern. There are a couple of plays that I get mixed up in my head sometimes and go to double check on occasion, and then I'm good for the trip usually. It's infrequent play that makes me occasionally rusty; I only make trips to a casino maybe eight to fifteen times a year, mostly riverboats not all of which offer anything worth playing.

What am I worried about? Not getting arrested, possibly not even getting barred - but I do worry about possible (more rapid) downgrading of machines if casinos (erroneously) think that they can be consistently beat by a casual player with a sheet of paper, and I do worry about possible delays / hassle when being paid a jackpot if they suspect I'm not a good customer -- and I certainly "worry" (but not as much) about being identified as a less profitable player for the casino with consequential reduced comps.

These things are definitely not as common for VP players as they are for blackjack players, but I've heard reports that they happen, and the NV trespass law certainly permits "barring" with little to no cause.

--BG

···

================

The cheat sheet does not violate a,b, or c and as for d it doesn't really analyze anything, it just tells you make this play holding these cards. The computer work has already been done for many hands of this type thus this is a very grey area but is a red flag to a bull (the casino)

···

--- On Sat, 1/31/09, b.glazer@att.net <b.glazer@att.net> wrote:
From: b.glazer@att.net <b.glazer@att.net>
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Using Strategy Sheets In Casinos
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 2:31 PM

            > 3.2. Re: Using Strategy Sheets In Casinos - Was: Strange Happening Today

Date: Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:06 pm ((PST))

Nevada Statute 465.075 states:

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed establishment to use, or

possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

a. In projecting the outcome of a game

b. In keeping track of the cards played

c. In analyzing the probability of the occurance of an event

relating to the game

d. In analyziing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in

the game except as permitted by the commission.

This statute was enacted many years ago to protect the gambling

houses from blackjack players using concealed blackjack computers.

The problem with the Nevada law is "any device" is vague. The New

Jersey statute specifically says "electronic, electrical, or

mechanical device."

Under the Nevada law someone could construe it so that using a vp

strategy card while at the machine is unlawful, pencil and pad at a

baccarat table is unlawful, recording numbers at a roulette wheel is

unlawful.

Of course we know that in Nevada they will give you pencil and paper

at a baccarat table, let you record previous numbers at the roulette

wheel (many casinos record the numbers for you). And we've all seen

those worthless blackjack strategy cards for sale in casino gift

shops. I've even seen pit bosses passing them out for free. No one

in Nevada has ever been prosecuted for using these "devices" or for

using vp strategy cards.

But there was a strange case in Colorado some years ago. I read

about it in an Arnold Snyder column in Cardplayer Magazine. Snyder

is a blackjack writer. The Colorado statute is an exact copy of

Nevada Statute 465.075. Here is the story:

A man sits down at a backjack table in Blackhawk, Colorado and starts

playing. The betting limit was $5. When he is dealt in he pulls out

a blackjack strategy card of the kind sold in most Nevada casino gift

shops. He was using the strategy card to determine how to play his

hand. Casino personnel alerted the gaming commission and a gaming

agent promptly appeared. After observing the man using the card the

gaming agent arrested the man and charged him with using a "cheating

device." The charge carried a penalty, if convicted, of 6 to 18

months in jail, or a %500 to $5000 fine, or both.

In his article Snyder was looking for a blackjack player who happened

to be a lawyer to defend the man pro bono. I never learned of the

outcome of the case.

I'm no lawyer, but I think the common practice in Las Vegas would be worthwhile evidence, if there's a way to present it as such, that a pencil and paper or a strategy sheet is not a cheating device. I suspect the Colorado gaming agents were dealing with this for the first time in their life, and are not as sophisticated as (I would hope) the agents in NV might be about what the casinos are (should be) worried about. Not to mention the ignorance of the CO casino in terms of PR.

I too would be interested in knowing the outcome of that case - there are definitely NV attorneys who specialize in representing card counters who have been abused (beyond barring), but I've never heard of anyone doing it for free in CO.

Again, I use a card when I need to, but I keep it in my pocket and try to be discreet. Some sessions I never pull it out, and I've even forgotten it or left it in my room and played on with little concern. There are a couple of plays that I get mixed up in my head sometimes and go to double check on occasion, and then I'm good for the trip usually. It's infrequent play that makes me occasionally rusty; I only make trips to a casino maybe eight to fifteen times a year, mostly riverboats not all of which offer anything worth playing.

What am I worried about? Not getting arrested, possibly not even getting barred - but I do worry about possible (more rapid) downgrading of machines if casinos (erroneously) think that they can be consistently beat by a casual player with a sheet of paper, and I do worry about possible delays / hassle when being paid a jackpot if they suspect I'm not a good customer -- and I certainly "worry" (but not as much) about being identified as a less profitable player for the casino with consequential reduced comps.

These things are definitely not as common for VP players as they are for blackjack players, but I've heard reports that they happen, and the NV trespass law certainly permits "barring" with little to no cause.

--BG

============ ====

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm no lawyer, but I think the common practice in Las Vegas would

be worthwhile evidence, if there's a way to present it as such, that
a pencil and paper or a strategy sheet is not a cheating device. I
suspect the Colorado gaming agents were dealing with this for the
first time in their life, and are not as sophisticated as (I would
hope) the agents in NV might be about what the casinos are (should
be) worried about. Not to mention the ignorance of the CO casino in
terms of PR.

I too would be interested in knowing the outcome of that case -

there are definitely NV attorneys who specialize in representing card
counters who have been abused (beyond barring), but I've never heard
of anyone doing it for free in CO.

You are right about the ignorance of the Colorado Gaming Commission.
Gaming didn't come to Colorado through the legislature. Roy Roemer,
the three term Governor at the time was a Christian type and
militantly anti-gaming. So the people went over Roemer's head and
broght gaming in through a statewide vote. But Roemer got to appoint
the members of the Colorado Gaming Commission. He appointed
Christian types with backgrounds in law enforcement. None of them
had any actual gaming experience. I seen and heard alot of silly
stuff by them. But one thing I liked about them was they were just as
tough on the houses as the players. They were definitely not "casino
friendly."

In 93 and 94 I played poker at The Phoenix House in Cripple Creek,
Colorado. To be a floorperson in a poker room you had to know all the
regulations pertaining to poker. Many times I saw gaming agents show
up and give the floorpeople pop quizes on the regs. Bill Garrett, the
assistant manager of the Phoenix House, also had background in law
enforcement. Unknown to me, he had applied for a job as a gaming
agent. Gaming called to casino one day and told him he was hired.
At that point he had to immediately leave the casino. His wife, a
poker dealer, had to get up out of the box and leave the casino.
Being the wife of a poker dealer she could no longer work in a
casino.

One day a gaming agent was in giving a pop quiz. He happened to see
a pot being pushed in an Omaha Hi-Low game. "What are you doing?" he
says to the dealer. The dealer says "I'm pushing the pot to the 3
jacks. There is no low." "There is always a low" says the
agent. "No there is not" says the dealer. The agent got out the
regulations and showed everyone that there was nothing in the
regulations sanctioning a qualifier in Omaha Hi-Low. So Omaha Hi-Low
was played without a qualifier for a few months until Gaming could
get the regulation straightened out.

I ran into Bill Garrett in a restaurant sometime after he became a
gaming agent. He was sitting there with his superviser. So I said
to Bill "You know, Bill, you are probably the first gaming agent in
this state with any actual gaming experience." His superviser
says "No, that's not right. Susan was a cocktail waitress in Vegas."

One friend related this story to me. He was in Blackhawk, Colorado
looking around for video poker plays. He got himself into some kind
of scuffle and wound up in jail for the night. He just happened to
have a copy of Dan Paymar's Precision Play on him. When the police
discovered it they notified Gaming. A gaming agent appeared and went
through the book, taking notes as well. Then the agent left.

I don't think Snyder was so much interested in the man who was
charged with using a cheating device as he was interested in not
letting it get established that using a strategy card was illegal in
Colorado. Many states adopted Nevada type laws but interpreted them
differently.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, b.glazer@... wrote:

I messed this sentence up. It should say "Being the wife of a gaming
agent she could no longer work in a casino."

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mickeycrimm" <mickeycrimm@...> wrote:

Being the wife of a poker dealer she could no longer work in a
casino.

mickeycrimm wrote:

You are right about the ignorance of the Colorado Gaming
Commission ...

Mickey,

Very glad to see you've been drawn back in this last week. I hope we
enjoy a long period of residence before your next posting hiatus.

- H.

Thanks, Harry.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Mickey,

Very glad to see you've been drawn back in this last week. I hope we
enjoy a long period of residence before your next posting hiatus.

- H.