vpFREE2 Forums

Updates to Barbary Coast, Caesars and TI

Thanks so much for the update. I have reservations at TI and Caesars in Dec
and was thinking of canceling TI after reading some of the posts here.
But after reading that they still have FP 3/5 JB at $2 and FP BP $1, I think
I'll keep the reservation. With Freedom Freeplay TI is still a positive play
at the $1 level.
Thanks
Joel

In a message dated 11/9/2004 11:39:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ms_vpfree_3@yahoo.com writes:

After fortifying myself with lunch at the Grand Lux Cafe at
the Venetian, I ventured forth to scrutinize the video
poker inventories at these three casinos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks so much for the update. I have reservations at TI and Caesars

in Dec

and was thinking of canceling TI after reading some of the posts here.
But after reading that they still have FP 3/5 JB at $2 and FP BP $1,

I think

I'll keep the reservation. With Freedom Freeplay TI is still a

positive play

at the $1 level.
Thanks
Joel

What is Freedom Freeplay ?

thanks

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, joel0457@a... wrote:

the key was on reducing the number of hands to analyze to minimize
computing time. Jeff Lotspiech's website had this information
available in 1996 at http://members.aol.com/lotsie/method.html

I wrote an algorithm to match the suit equivalences to generate
the list of 134,459 unique hands that Jeff Lotspiech's page
talks about.

If you are interested in the list of hands, I can post it.

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

Hi Neal,

It is interesting to see someone new come in and tackle the VP
analysis thing. It is a great mental exercise and I hope you don't
get discouraged because you never know when someone can
uncover something new. There are still some problems that have
remained unsolved even now.

Imagine a snowflake on top of a snowball on top of the tip of the
iceberg. You are there. Good luck, and have fun.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@jammconsulting.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

the key was on reducing the number of hands to analyze to minimize
computing time. Jeff Lotspiech's website had this information
available in 1996 at http://members.aol.com/lotsie/method.html

I wrote an algorithm to match the suit equivalences to generate the list of 134,459 unique hands that Jeff Lotspiech's page talks about.

If you are interested in the list of hands, I can post it.

Thanks,
Neil

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

Ron:

I have written some code that seems to be
generating results that look sane, for example
for FP JoB I am getting:

Hand Times Hold EV
Qs3sKhKc7d 12 KhKc 1.536540241
As5sJh8hAc 24 AsAc 1.536540241
As6s5s3s5h 12 As6s5s3s 1.212765957
As5s3s7h3h 12 3s3h 0.823681776
Js4sTh3hAc 24 JsAc 0.462473019
Ks9s9h4c2d 24 9s9h 0.823681776
6s5s6h2hQc 24 6s6h 0.823681776
7s4sJhTcTd 12 TcTd 0.823681776
6s2sAhQc5d 24 AhQc 0.462473019
Ks4s2h2c2d 4 2h2c2d 4.302497687

The second column is the number of other hands that
match the one in the first column (because of the
fact that suits are irrelevent). The third column
are the cards to hold, and the last column is the
EV of holding the cards in the hold column. The code
does take into account the cards that are discarded.

My current code takes about 8 seconds to calculate a
result for each of the starting hands on the modest
P4 I am running it on.

Multiplying this by the 134,459 starting hands to
analyze, it will take about two weeks for this
code to run through all of the hands. That is
not bad, but its not great. I can split the
processing across multiple machines to reduce the
time.

I am attaching my source code in case you (or anyone
else) have any insights to offer.

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Reinfort [mailto:rjr…@…net]
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:47 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

Hi Neal,

It is interesting to see someone new come in and tackle the VP
analysis thing. It is a great mental exercise and I hope you don't
get discouraged because you never know when someone can
uncover something new. There are still some problems that have
remained unsolved even now.

Imagine a snowflake on top of a snowball on top of the tip of the
iceberg. You are there. Good luck, and have fun.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@jammconsulting.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

>
>> the key was on reducing the number of hands to analyze to minimize
>> computing time. Jeff Lotspiech's website had this information
>> available in 1996 at http://members.aol.com/lotsie/method.html
>
> I wrote an algorithm to match the suit equivalences to generate
> the list of 134,459 unique hands that Jeff Lotspiech's page
> talks about.
>
> If you are interested in the list of hands, I can post it.
>
> Thanks,
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056,
www.JAMMConsulting.com
> FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce
operating costs by
> 17% or more in 6 months or less!
http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
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--------------------------------------------------------------
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Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron:

I guess the yahoo exploder strips out attachments.
I have put up a version here for you to see:
http://dev.JAMMConsulting.com/VPCode.zip

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Aggarwal [mailto:n…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 2:54 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

Ron:

I have written some code that seems to be
generating results that look sane, for example
for FP JoB I am getting:

Hand Times Hold EV
Qs3sKhKc7d 12 KhKc 1.536540241
As5sJh8hAc 24 AsAc 1.536540241
As6s5s3s5h 12 As6s5s3s 1.212765957
As5s3s7h3h 12 3s3h 0.823681776
Js4sTh3hAc 24 JsAc 0.462473019
Ks9s9h4c2d 24 9s9h 0.823681776
6s5s6h2hQc 24 6s6h 0.823681776
7s4sJhTcTd 12 TcTd 0.823681776
6s2sAhQc5d 24 AhQc 0.462473019
Ks4s2h2c2d 4 2h2c2d 4.302497687

The second column is the number of other hands that
match the one in the first column (because of the
fact that suits are irrelevent). The third column
are the cards to hold, and the last column is the
EV of holding the cards in the hold column. The code
does take into account the cards that are discarded.

My current code takes about 8 seconds to calculate a
result for each of the starting hands on the modest
P4 I am running it on.

Multiplying this by the 134,459 starting hands to
analyze, it will take about two weeks for this
code to run through all of the hands. That is
not bad, but its not great. I can split the
processing across multiple machines to reduce the
time.

I am attaching my source code in case you (or anyone
else) have any insights to offer.

Thanks,
  Neil

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Reinfort [mailto:rjr…@…net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:47 PM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea
>
>
>
> Hi Neal,
>
> It is interesting to see someone new come in and tackle the VP
> analysis thing. It is a great mental exercise and I hope you don't
> get discouraged because you never know when someone can
> uncover something new. There are still some problems that have
> remained unsolved even now.
>
> Imagine a snowflake on top of a snowball on top of the tip of the
> iceberg. You are there. Good luck, and have fun.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@jammconsulting.com>
> To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:52 PM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea
>
>
> >
> >> the key was on reducing the number of hands to analyze
to minimize
> >> computing time. Jeff Lotspiech's website had this information
> >> available in 1996 at http://members.aol.com/lotsie/method.html
> >
> > I wrote an algorithm to match the suit equivalences to generate
> > the list of 134,459 unique hands that Jeff Lotspiech's page
> > talks about.
> >
> > If you are interested in the list of hands, I can post it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Neil
> >
> > –
> > Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056,
> www.JAMMConsulting.com
> > FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce
> operating costs by
> > 17% or more in 6 months or less!
> http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~–>
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/E0TolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~->
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Yahoo! Groups Links

Ron:

Do you know what the correct holds cards for
AsJs8sQh3h should be?

My code is telling me to hold AsJs8s with
an EV of 0.543940796

That seems counterintuitive to me because:
1. Getting two more spades is pretty unlikely.
2. If I drop the 8s, I have another draw to
  a pair of aces or jacks.

I wonder if something is wrong in my payout
calcs.

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Aggarwal [mailto:n…@…com]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 2:54 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

Ron:

I have written some code that seems to be
generating results that look sane, for example
for FP JoB I am getting:

Hand Times Hold EV
Qs3sKhKc7d 12 KhKc 1.536540241
As5sJh8hAc 24 AsAc 1.536540241
As6s5s3s5h 12 As6s5s3s 1.212765957
As5s3s7h3h 12 3s3h 0.823681776
Js4sTh3hAc 24 JsAc 0.462473019
Ks9s9h4c2d 24 9s9h 0.823681776
6s5s6h2hQc 24 6s6h 0.823681776
7s4sJhTcTd 12 TcTd 0.823681776
6s2sAhQc5d 24 AhQc 0.462473019
Ks4s2h2c2d 4 2h2c2d 4.302497687

The second column is the number of other hands that
match the one in the first column (because of the
fact that suits are irrelevent). The third column
are the cards to hold, and the last column is the
EV of holding the cards in the hold column. The code
does take into account the cards that are discarded.

My current code takes about 8 seconds to calculate a
result for each of the starting hands on the modest
P4 I am running it on.

Multiplying this by the 134,459 starting hands to
analyze, it will take about two weeks for this
code to run through all of the hands. That is
not bad, but its not great. I can split the
processing across multiple machines to reduce the
time.

I am attaching my source code in case you (or anyone
else) have any insights to offer.

Thanks,
  Neil

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Reinfort [mailto:rjr…@…net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:47 PM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea
>
>
>
> Hi Neal,
>
> It is interesting to see someone new come in and tackle the VP
> analysis thing. It is a great mental exercise and I hope you don't
> get discouraged because you never know when someone can
> uncover something new. There are still some problems that have
> remained unsolved even now.
>
> Imagine a snowflake on top of a snowball on top of the tip of the
> iceberg. You are there. Good luck, and have fun.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@jammconsulting.com>
> To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 2:52 PM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea
>
>
> >
> >> the key was on reducing the number of hands to analyze
to minimize
> >> computing time. Jeff Lotspiech's website had this information
> >> available in 1996 at http://members.aol.com/lotsie/method.html
> >
> > I wrote an algorithm to match the suit equivalences to generate
> > the list of 134,459 unique hands that Jeff Lotspiech's page
> > talks about.
> >
> > If you are interested in the list of hands, I can post it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Neil
> >
> > –
> > Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056,
> www.JAMMConsulting.com
> > FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce
> operating costs by
> > 17% or more in 6 months or less!
> http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~–>
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/E0TolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------~->
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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Yahoo! Groups Links

Neil,

This is my c code for evaluating all hands. As you can see it looks a
lot like yours (not too surprising). This code assumes an array
called bdeck has been initialized with values for all cards. I used 4
through 55 to represent a 52 card deck. 4-7 represent the aces, 8-b
represent the deuces, etc. The variable xdraw is set to the 5 cards
used for each hand. Setting the "dealt" indicator eliminates the same
cards being used on the draw. RateHand is a subroutine that does the
analysis of each hand.

for (i=4;i<maxcard-4;++i) {
   xdraw[0]=bdeck[i]; bdeck[i] = dealt;
   for (j=i+1; j<maxcard-3; ++j) {
    xdraw[1]=bdeck[j]; bdeck[j] = dealt;
    for (k=j+1; k<maxcard-2; ++k) {
     xdraw[2]=bdeck[k]; bdeck[k] = dealt;
     for (l=k+1; l<maxcard-1; ++l) {
      xdraw[3]=bdeck[l]; bdeck[l] = dealt;
      for (m=l+1; m<maxcard; ++m) {
        value = rateHand(); /* analysis code removed here */
        bdeck[m] = m;
        }
       bdeck[l] = l;
       }
      bdeck[k] = k;
      }
     bdeck[j] = j;
     }
    bdeck[i] = i;
    }
  }

The following simplications can be made for Jacks or Better to
shorten the full loop. The idea is that suit symmetry can be used to
examine a subset of hands. The previous code is then modified to
examine only the hands as describe by my comments below. The overall
result is about 1/8 the processing time.

/* handle all cards in one suit (5-0-0-0), then multiply by 4 */
/* handle 4-1-0-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 3-1-1-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 3-2-0-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 2-2-1-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 2-1-1-1, then multiply by 4 */

Using this and some other shortcuts I can analyze JOB in about 40
minutes on my 1Ghz PIII notebook. Not even close to the current
products. I thought of some ways to reduce the time of analyzing each
draw, but it would still be significantly more than the current
products. This is why I suspect that predefined tables are used. The
idea behind the tables is you look at the all TYPEs of dealt hands
for any given game. Types are things like high pair, four for a
flush, etc. You build a table for each once of these including
penalty card situations (eg. low pair with one high card). You then
preprocess the game and count the total number of result hands for
each type. The analysis phase then simply multiplies the result hands
by the pay table.

There are a couple of obvious problems with this technique that I
have not had the time nor energy to take on. However, you can see it
would greatly simply the analysis time. Comments welcome.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@j...> wrote:

Ron:

I guess the yahoo exploder strips out attachments.
I have put up a version here for you to see:
http://dev.JAMMConsulting.com/VPCode.zip

Thanks,
  Neil

Dick:

In my code, I pre-filtered the list of starting hands to remove
suit duplicates resulting in 134,459 unique starting hands
with a count of the number of times they occur.

Here is the top of my input file:
AaTa6a4a4b 12
Qa6a7b4bKc 24
Aa6aAbJc8d 24
Ja8a3a7b2c 24
Ka6aTb9b8c 24
KaQaTb6b4c 24
Qa8a4a2aQb 12
QaJa8aAb6b 12
KaTa8aQbTc 24
KaTa8b2bTc 24
Qa2aTb3b2c 24
KaQa4b3bKc 24
Ja3aJb9c8d 24
QaTa6a5a4a 4

The first column is the pattern and the second column is the number
of times the pattern occurs in the 2.5 million starting hands.

Once I set out to do the payout analysis, I take each of these
and analyze the 32 hold/drop patterns with all 47 remaining cards.

Your comments below tell me one thing I am not doing: Taking
suit equivalence during this analysis.

For example, when I am analyzing AsTs6s4s4h and holding the As,
I am analyzing As2d3d7d8d9d and As2c3c7c8c9c separately. These
are the same hand and I should be able to reduce the calculations
by taking advantage of it.

Back to the grindstone....

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: rgmustain [mailto:rgmust…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 10:17 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@j...> wrote:
> Ron:
>
> I guess the yahoo exploder strips out attachments.
> I have put up a version here for you to see:
> http://dev.JAMMConsulting.com/VPCode.zip
>
> Thanks,
> Neil

Neil,

This is my c code for evaluating all hands. As you can see it looks a
lot like yours (not too surprising). This code assumes an array
called bdeck has been initialized with values for all cards. I used 4
through 55 to represent a 52 card deck. 4-7 represent the aces, 8-b
represent the deuces, etc. The variable xdraw is set to the 5 cards
used for each hand. Setting the "dealt" indicator eliminates the same
cards being used on the draw. RateHand is a subroutine that does the
analysis of each hand.

for (i=4;i<maxcard-4;++i) {
   xdraw[0]=bdeck[i]; bdeck[i] = dealt;
   for (j=i+1; j<maxcard-3; ++j) {
    xdraw[1]=bdeck[j]; bdeck[j] = dealt;
    for (k=j+1; k<maxcard-2; ++k) {
     xdraw[2]=bdeck[k]; bdeck[k] = dealt;
     for (l=k+1; l<maxcard-1; ++l) {
      xdraw[3]=bdeck[l]; bdeck[l] = dealt;
      for (m=l+1; m<maxcard; ++m) {
        value = rateHand(); /* analysis code removed here */
        bdeck[m] = m;
        }
       bdeck[l] = l;
       }
      bdeck[k] = k;
      }
     bdeck[j] = j;
     }
    bdeck[i] = i;
    }
  }

The following simplications can be made for Jacks or Better to
shorten the full loop. The idea is that suit symmetry can be used to
examine a subset of hands. The previous code is then modified to
examine only the hands as describe by my comments below. The overall
result is about 1/8 the processing time.

/* handle all cards in one suit (5-0-0-0), then multiply by 4 */
/* handle 4-1-0-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 3-1-1-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 3-2-0-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 2-2-1-0, then multiply by 12 */
/* handle 2-1-1-1, then multiply by 4 */

Using this and some other shortcuts I can analyze JOB in about 40
minutes on my 1Ghz PIII notebook. Not even close to the current
products. I thought of some ways to reduce the time of analyzing each
draw, but it would still be significantly more than the current
products. This is why I suspect that predefined tables are used. The
idea behind the tables is you look at the all TYPEs of dealt hands
for any given game. Types are things like high pair, four for a
flush, etc. You build a table for each once of these including
penalty card situations (eg. low pair with one high card). You then
preprocess the game and count the total number of result hands for
each type. The analysis phase then simply multiplies the result hands
by the pay table.

There are a couple of obvious problems with this technique that I
have not had the time nor energy to take on. However, you can see it
would greatly simply the analysis time. Comments welcome.

Dick

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/E0TolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------
------~->

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Yahoo! Groups Links

You have the correct value for th AJ8. The value for AJ is .560777.

Dick

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@j...> wrote:

Ron:

Do you know what the correct holds cards for
AsJs8sQh3h should be?

My code is telling me to hold AsJs8s with
an EV of 0.543940796

That seems counterintuitive to me because:
1. Getting two more spades is pretty unlikely.
2. If I drop the 8s, I have another draw to
  a pair of aces or jacks.

I wonder if something is wrong in my payout
calcs.

Thanks,
  Neil

Dick:

So I am somehow not catching the AJ with a higher EV.

I will look into it.

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: rgmustain [mailto:rgmust…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:54 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@j...> wrote:
> Ron:
>
> Do you know what the correct holds cards for
> AsJs8sQh3h should be?
>
> My code is telling me to hold AsJs8s with
> an EV of 0.543940796
>
> That seems counterintuitive to me because:
> 1. Getting two more spades is pretty unlikely.
> 2. If I drop the 8s, I have another draw to
> a pair of aces or jacks.
>
> I wonder if something is wrong in my payout
> calcs.
>
> Thanks,
> Neil
>

You have the correct value for th AJ8. The value for AJ is .560777.

Dick

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Dick:

Thanks for the tip. I found a bug in my code. I now
get .56077 as you stated.

Thanks,
  Neil

···

--
Neil Aggarwal, JAMM Consulting, (972)612-6056, www.JAMMConsulting.com
FREE! Valuable info on how your business can reduce operating costs by
17% or more in 6 months or less! http://newsletter.JAMMConsulting.com

-----Original Message-----
From: rgmustain [mailto:rgmust…@…net]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:54 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Analysis sources? - An idea

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Aggarwal" <neil@j...> wrote:
> Ron:
>
> Do you know what the correct holds cards for
> AsJs8sQh3h should be?
>
> My code is telling me to hold AsJs8s with
> an EV of 0.543940796
>
> That seems counterintuitive to me because:
> 1. Getting two more spades is pretty unlikely.
> 2. If I drop the 8s, I have another draw to
> a pair of aces or jacks.
>
> I wonder if something is wrong in my payout
> calcs.
>
> Thanks,
> Neil
>

You have the correct value for th AJ8. The value for AJ is .560777.

Dick

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/E0TolB/TM
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Yahoo! Groups Links

VP analysis is a really fun program, especially if you enjoy the
challenge of getting the code to run quickly. As a point of
reference, my VP program does a complete analysis of a
9/6 JoB game in 0.44 seconds on a 650 MHz AMD Duron
processor. Of course, this isn't a fair comparison, because
I've spent hundreds of hours working out efficient algorithms,
and you've just started. Given the speed difference, there
should be some fairly easy changes you could make to
reduce the run time to something like a few minutes.

8 seconds is a long time for analyzing a single hand, so
I suspect you could get a huge reduction in run time by
taking a different approach. I haven't seen your source
code (you said it was attached, but it didn't show up here),
but I'll throw out a couple ideas.

I have separate routines that compute the number of ways
to draw each of the final hands, given a particular set
of held cards and the set of cards that remain in the deck.
One routine computes the number of ways to draw a royal,
another computes the number of ways to draw a full house,
etc. Once you know these numbers, you can divide by
the total number of hands that can be drawn to get the
probabilities for each final hand. The trick here is to compute
the number of ways to draw each hand witout resorting to
dealing out every possibility and counting the results. For
example, if you are holding 3 spades and discarding two
non-spades, then the number of ways to draw a flush is
C(10,2) (the combination of 10 things taken two at a time)
= 10*9/2 = 45. If there are str-flush or royal draws possible
they are subtracted from this total. The total number of ways
to draw two cards is C(47,2) = 46*46/2 = 1081, so the
probability of drawing a flush is 45/1081. These numbers
can be computed much faster than you can deal out all
1081 hands and count the results.

Then I divide the payoffs into three classes. The "grouped"
payoffs are one pair, two pair, 3/kind, full house and 4/kind.
If your held cards already have a group, then it becomes
impossible to draw straights or flushes, so you can skip
the computations of straight, flush, str-flush and royal.
The second class of hands combines straights, str-flush
and royal -- any kind of hand that permits a straight to
be drawn. The third class is flushes where no straight
is possible. If the held cards do not permit any straights,
then you can skip the computation of straights, str-flush
and royals since none of these hands are possible.

The 134,459 starting hands can be reduced to a much
smaller set of starting hands by considering all of the
different symmetries in ranks and suits. My program
reduces this number to something like 8,000 cases,
but I believe it is possible to reduce the number of
cases even more.

Another way to reduce the run time is to look for
equivalent draws. If your initial hand is 2h 2c 3d
6s 8c and you want to compute every case, then
holding (8c 6s 3d 2h) is equivalent to holding
(8c 6s 3d 2c) -- it doesn't matter which two you
hold and which you discard, the numbers come
out the same. Many initial hands can be reduced
to less than 32 cases.

I don't pre-compute anything in my program, each
analysis starts from scratch and computes all the
numbers necessary for the analysis. However, the
first step I take is to compute tables that give the
part of the EV that comes from each of the three
classes of hands that I talked about earlier (grouped
hands, str8-ish hands, and flushes). Then, for
each set of held cards, I look up the value from
these three perspectives and add the three values
to get the overall EV for the hand. The reason
my program is so fast is that splitting up the problem
into these three cases makes each of the three tables
quite small, and the values in the tables are computed
only once at the beginning of the run.

···

On Sunday 14 November 2004 01:54 am, Neil Aggarwal wrote:

My current code takes about 8 seconds to calculate a
result for each of the starting hands on the modest
P4 I am running it on.

Multiplying this by the 134,459 starting hands to
analyze, it will take about two weeks for this
code to run through all of the hands. That is
not bad, but its not great. I can split the
processing across multiple machines to reduce the
time.

Do they still have $2 9/6 single line at TI?
Are there still a few $1 NSU left at BC?

Thanks
JAS

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <joel0457@aol.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Updates to Barbary Coast, Caesars and TI

Thanks so much for the update. I have reservations at TI and Caesars in

Dec

and was thinking of canceling TI after reading some of the posts here.
But after reading that they still have FP 3/5 JB at $2 and FP BP $1, I

think

I'll keep the reservation. With Freedom Freeplay TI is still a positive

play

at the $1 level.
Thanks
Joel

In a message dated 11/9/2004 11:39:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ms_vpfree_3@yahoo.com writes:

> After fortifying myself with lunch at the Grand Lux Cafe at
> the Venetian, I ventured forth to scrutinize the video
> poker inventories at these three casinos.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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