Unshuffled cards cost Golden Nugget millions -- I don't get it

[misscraps]

According to an article in today's paper, Golden Nugget in Atlantic City ordered a preshuffled bunch of cards to be used at baccarat, which I assume would be something like 8 or more decks, since that is normally used for that game. Players noticed the same order of cards coming out over and over and started betting high and then won 1.5 million. Now the casino doesn't want to pay them and they are suing, and the casino is suing Gemaco, the people who made the cards.

This makes no sense to me. First, why would a casino order a preshuffled deck from somewhere else? They would have to shuffle the deck(s) again anyway after discarding. Secondly, whenever I've seen new decks brought into a game, the casino always spreads the decks and then checks them for manufacturing errors. Whether deck or decks were supposedly preshuffled or not, wouldn't the casino need to check them for manufacturing defects and thus see they weren't shuffled? Wouldn't the casino want to reshuffle even supposedly preshuffled decks? And why have them preshuffled anyway, for a onetime bonus of no shuffling...wouldn't you want to check the decks for defects, make sure the right number of cards were there, and then reshuffle?

Can anyone explain this part of the story? Makes no sense.

A new TV show called Cheating Vegas just focused on baccarat cheating from the Tran family, which involved dealers in cahoots with players to not shuffle part of the deck(s), which is understandable. But a casino ordering preshuffled cards just makes no sense to me.

[Neil2]

This is only "part 2" of this story. You should do a GOOGLE search for "unshuffled cards" + "Trump Taj Mahal". Their story happened first (Dec. 2011) and resulted in a $91K fine, and the firing of nearly 12 or 14 staff.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Misscraps <misscraps@...> wrote:

According to an article in today's paper, Golden Nugget in Atlantic City ordered a preshuffled bunch of cards to be used at baccarat, which I assume would be something like 8 or more decks, since that is normally used for that game. Players noticed the same order of cards coming out over and over and started betting high and then won 1.5 million. Now the casino doesn't want to pay them and they are suing, and the casino is suing Gemaco, the people who made the cards.

[eecounter]

8 brand new decks take a long time to open, inspect, wash, and shuffle. The pre-shuffled decks let casinos skip these steps and load the pre-shuffled cards right into the shoe and start dealing. Big baccarat games typically only use the cards once through, so the next shoe would also have to begin with time consuming process of opening new cards, inspection, washing, and shuffling.

The pre-shuffled packs are supposed to be "certified" by the manufacturer to be complete and random. Except these weren't. OOPS!!!

What's funny (as someone mentioned on BJ21), is that the players were smart enough to notice the cards coming out A,2,3,4,5.... and adjusted their bets to take advantage of the situation, while the casino bosses and security were apparently too stupid to figure out what was going on and stop the game. Now they don't want to pay the players for using their brains. Typical.

EE

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Misscraps <misscraps@...> wrote:

This makes no sense to me. First, why would a casino order a preshuffled deck from somewhere else? > A new TV show called Cheating Vegas just focused on baccarat cheating from the Tran family, which involved dealers in cahoots with players to not shuffle part of the deck(s), which is understandable. But a casino ordering preshuffled cards just makes no sense to me.

[MHS3]

Not just the dealers. Also floor supervisors and security in the eye in the ceiling. So many people either in on the scam or completely asleep at the switch. Not only doesn't the story make sense. It is also an insult to players who are scrutinized for every minutest detail. What a load of hooey!

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On 8/21/2012 4:42 PM, Misscraps wrote:

According to an article in today's paper, Golden Nugget in Atlantic City ordered a preshuffled bunch of cards to be used at baccarat, which I assume would be something like 8 or more decks, since that is normally used for that game. Players noticed the same order of cards coming out over and over and started betting high and then won 1.5 million. Now the casino doesn't want to pay them and they are suing, and the casino is suing Gemaco, the people who made the cards.

This makes no sense to me. First, why would a casino order a preshuffled deck from somewhere else? They would have to shuffle the deck(s) again anyway after discarding. Secondly, whenever I've seen new decks brought into a game, the casino always spreads the decks and then checks them for manufacturing errors. Whether deck or decks were supposedly preshuffled or not, wouldn't the casino need to check them for manufacturing defects and thus see they weren't shuffled? Wouldn't the casino want to reshuffle even supposedly preshuffled decks? And why have them preshuffled anyway, for a onetime bonus of no shuffling...wouldn't you want to check the decks for defects, make sure the right number of cards were there, and then reshuffle?

Can anyone explain this part of the story? Makes no sense.

A new TV show called Cheating Vegas just focused on baccarat cheating from the Tran family, which involved dealers in cahoots with players to not shuffle part of the deck(s), which is understandable. But a casino ordering preshuffled cards just makes no sense to me.

[GOLDFADA]

The cards in "big" baccarat shoes (as opposed to minibaccarat) are dealt
only once because the players are allowed to crease the cards. Buying
preshuffled cards saves the time otherwise required to shuffle them and
thus allows the casinos to deal more hands in the same amount of time.
New Jersey regulations allow preshuffled cards. They must be sealed
after the shuffle so that dealers and floor supervisors may not inspect
them. It's a good idea when things work the way they're supposed to,
but apparently nobody stopped to think what might happen if things went
wrong.
It's shocking that Golden Nugget named the players in their lawsuit.
They might as well remove their baccarat game now.

According to an article in today's paper, Golden Nugget in Atlantic

City ordered a preshuffled bunch of cards to be used at baccarat, which
I assume would be something like 8 or more decks, since that is normally
used for that game. Players noticed the same order of cards coming out
over and over and started betting high and then won 1.5 million. Now
the casino doesn't want to pay them and they are suing, and the casino
is suing Gemaco, the people who made the cards.

This makes no sense to me. First, why would a casino order a

preshuffled deck from somewhere else? They would have to shuffle the
deck(s) again anyway after discarding. Secondly, whenever I've seen new
decks brought into a game, the casino always spreads the decks and then
checks them for manufacturing errors. Whether deck or decks were
supposedly preshuffled or not, wouldn't the casino need to check them
for manufacturing defects and thus see they weren't shuffled? Wouldn't
the casino want to reshuffle even supposedly preshuffled decks? And why
have them preshuffled anyway, for a onetime bonus of no
shuffling...wouldn't you want to check the decks for defects, make sure
the right number of cards were there, and then reshuffle?

Can anyone explain this part of the story? Makes no sense.

A new TV show called Cheating Vegas just focused on baccarat cheating

from the Tran family, which involved dealers in cahoots with players to
not shuffle part of the deck(s), which is understandable. But a casino
ordering preshuffled cards just makes no sense to me.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Misscraps <misscraps@...> wrote:

[MHS3]

The cards in "big" baccarat shoes (as opposed to minibaccarat) are dealt
only once because the players are allowed to crease the cards. Buying
preshuffled cards saves the time otherwise required to shuffle them and
thus allows the casinos to deal more hands in the same amount of time.
New Jersey regulations allow preshuffled cards.

First of all, the Associated Press says it was MINI baccarat:
"ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) � At first, it seemed like a coincidence, the kind of thing that happens from time to time at a casino, where the same number or same sequence of cards happens twice in a row. But when the players at an April game of mini-baccarat at the Golden Nugget Atlantic City kept seeing the same sequence of cards dealt, over and over and over again, their eyes grew wide and their bets grew bigger, zooming from $10 a hand to $5,000.

They must be sealed
after the shuffle so that dealers and floor supervisors may not inspect
them. It's a good idea when things work the way they're supposed to,
but apparently nobody stopped to think what might happen if things went
wrong.

Sealing them after which "shuffle," Gemaco's?

It's shocking that Golden Nugget named the players in their lawsuit.
They might as well remove their baccarat game now.

Why is it "shocking"? What is more shocking is that the Nugget had a table of people betting $5,000 a hand and apparently didn't exercise any supervision on it:
"But when the players at an April game of mini-baccarat at the Golden Nugget Atlantic City kept seeing the same sequence of cards dealt, over and over and over again, their eyes grew wide and their bets grew bigger, zooming from $10 a hand to $5,000." Maybe the Casino Control Commission and Division of Gaming Enforcement have completely abdicated their supposedly legally mandated duties.

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On 8/22/2012 7:35 AM, goldfada@verizon.net wrote:

[Mickey]

Several years ago I was told a story by a friend of mine "Jerry" who was an old grifter. It was about him and his buddy (partner in crime)playing social blackjack in a bar in Oregon. The bar owner made his money off the game by selling the table a brand new unsealed deck of cards every half hour.

On this scam, it was Jerry's job to get next to the barmaid. "She was ugly as a mud fence" he told me. "But I had to do my duty. I had to act like I was in love. It took a couple weeks but I got to going with her. I would stay after closing time and help her clean up. When the timing was right we switched out a whole case of cards on her."

"Did you make some money?" I asked.
"Oh, yeah."
"So what happened with you and the girl?"
"I was glad when we finally got the money and got the hell out of there!"

[GOLDFADA]

First of all, the Associated Press says it was MINI baccarat:

Sorry, I missed that.

> They must be sealed
> after the shuffle so that dealers and floor supervisors may not

inspect

> them. It's a good idea when things work the way they're supposed to,
> but apparently nobody stopped to think what might happen if things

went

> wrong.
>
Sealing them after which "shuffle," Gemaco's?

Yes, the cards come sealed from the manufacturer and may not be opened
or inspected by the casino management except for signs of tampering.
The dealer must do a strip or riffle shuffle only if requested by a
player. N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18A.

> It's shocking that Golden Nugget named the players in their lawsuit.
> They might as well remove their baccarat game now.
>
Why is it "shocking"? What is more shocking is that the Nugget had a
table of people betting $5,000 a hand and apparently didn't exercise

any

supervision on it:

I once played for hours on a double-attack blackjack game where the
10-pip cards had not been removed, which gave the players a big
advantage. I was still there when the floor supervisor realized the
error. In that instance, the winning players were allowed to keep their
winnings and the losing players were reimbursed for their losses.
Demanding that the players point out the casino's error or forfeit their
winnings is unfair and unrealistic.

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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, MHS <mspevack@...> wrote: