Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
···
Sent from my iPhone
Ultimate X
what casino is 9/6 jacks ultx available at ?
thanks...Tom
···
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Ultimate X
Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy: 99.1520%
Average multiplier would be 1.992127
times regular return 99.5439%
divided by 2 to account for 10-coin bet instead of 5-coin bet.
···
________________________________
From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
Sent from my iPhone
Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ok, but what is the variance
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote:
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy:Â 99.1520%
Average multiplier would be    1.992127
times regular return               99.5439%
divided by                            2 to account for 10-coin bet instead of 5-coin bet.________________________________
From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate XÂ
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@> wrote:
>
> Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank's so much. That's the answer I was looking for, although not the result I was hoping for. The good news is the game is offered in a single line format so there is only one strategy to develop and learn if I understand correctly.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote:
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy: 99.1520%
35.30098 (in single coin bets, using the standard consistent with WinPoker). I would have to do some research to calculate the skewness and/or kurtosis. 
···
________________________________
From: maclarenv12 <ahduff@yahoo.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 9:40 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X
ok, but what is the variance
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote:
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy:Â 99.1520%
Average multiplier would be    1.992127
times regular return               99.5439%
divided by                            2 to account for 10-coin bet instead of 5-coin bet.________________________________
From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate XÂ
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@> wrote:
>
> Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm very curious how you calculated the Average Multiplier? That is much
closer to 2 than I would have guessed it would be (and 99.1520% is much
closer to optimal than I would have guessed).
···
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Rick E. Percy <ricke.percy@yahoo.com>wrote:
**
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB
strategy: 99.1520%Average multiplier would be 1.992127
times regular return 99.5439%
divided by 2 to account for 10-coin
bet instead of 5-coin bet.________________________________
From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using
an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
7 strategies ... one for each unique multiplier possibility.
···
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 3:28 PM, vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>wrote:
**
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@...> wrote:
>
> Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB
strategy: 99.1520%
>Thank's so much. That's the answer I was looking for, although not the
result I was hoping for. The good news is the game is offered in a single
line format so there is only one strategy to develop and learn if I
understand correctly.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Isn't it like Super Times Pay where once you have a multiplier, you still
play the hand the same as with no multiplier because all hands results are
subject to the same multiplier? The catch in Ultimate X is you are trying
to win something to get a multiplier on the next hand, kinda like trying to
advance to the next level in Multistrike.
···
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@gmail.com>wrote:
**
7 strategies ... one for each unique multiplier possibility.
[image: Yahoo! Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZDg5cm51BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NDEwMTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDY1NzMyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzE2MzI0Nzc4>
Switch to: Text-Only<vpFREE-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional>,
Daily Digest<vpFREE-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest>•
Unsubscribe <vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> • Terms
of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DEFINITELY not. Since your actions on this hand affects the multiplier on
your hand, you can't keep the multiplier and the hand strategy "independent"
like you can in STP. In STP you have no control over your multiplier; you
either win it or you don't. In UX you have complete control over your
multiplier.
Your Multistrike analysis is very astute. In Multistrike, your optimal
strategy is some mix of hit frequency (to get you to the next level) and pay
back contribution on that level. If you take too much in the pay back
contribution category, you lose in the hit frequency category and lose in
your overall EV. Likewise, if you take too much hit frequency, you are
losing payback % on that particular level and losing in the overall EV. The
correct strategy is somewhere in between.
The same analysis essentially applies for UX, substituting hit frequency
with multiplier potential.
···
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:00 AM, vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>wrote:
Isn't it like Super Times Pay where once you have a multiplier, you still
play the hand the same as with no multiplier because all hands results are
subject to the same multiplier? The catch in Ultimate X is you are trying
to win something to get a multiplier on the next hand, kinda like trying to
advance to the next level in Multistrike.On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@gmail.com > >wrote:
> **
>
>
> 7 strategies ... one for each unique multiplier possibility.
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Yahoo! Groups]<
http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZDg5cm51BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NDEwMTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDY1NzMyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzE2MzI0Nzc4
>
> Switch to: Text-Only<
vpFREE-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change+Delivery+Format:+Traditional
>,
> Daily Digest<
vpFREE-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email+Delivery:+Digest>•
> Unsubscribe <vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> •
Terms
> of Use <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> .
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DEFINITELY not. Since your actions on this hand affects the multiplier on
your hand, you can't keep the multiplier and the hand strategy "independent"
like you can in STP.>>>>
You mean your actions on this hand affects the multiplier on your NEXT hand, don't you? Remember I'm talking about a single line Ultimate X game, so you are playing for a single multiplier on the next hand, so why isn't the strategy always the same?
<< In STP you have no control over your multiplier; you
either win it or you don't. In UX you have complete control over your
multiplier.
Understood.
Your Multistrike analysis is very astute. In Multistrike, your optimal
strategy is some mix of hit frequency (to get you to the next level) and pay
back contribution on that level. If you take too much in the pay back
contribution category, you lose in the hit frequency category and lose in
your overall EV. Likewise, if you take too much hit frequency, you are
losing payback % on that particular level and losing in the overall EV. The
correct strategy is somewhere in between.
Why isn't playing a single line Ultimate X game like always playing a level 3 hand in Multistrike? In both examples you are playing a strategy to maximize return on the current hand plus get a multiplier on you next hand, if and only if you win the current hand.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@...> wrote:
Here's a hypothetical example which may not be a strategy change in "real
life," I'm just using this to demonstrate my point.
Suppose you are dealt 4 to an inside straight, all low cards, no straight
flush possibilities, and one high card. Drawing to an inside straight is a
big no-no in JoB in this case. If you have no multiplier, it is very likely
that you hold 4 to the inside straight - in fact, I would, if I were
playing. Because my EV for the hand is the 20 credits I would get, plus the
7x multiplier which is huge. If I hold the high card, I'll have a higher EV
for this hand, but likely a lower multiplier on the next hand.
Now suppose you have a 10x multiplier with the same dealt hand. This is a
situation where it's more important to maximize the EV on *this* hand rather
worry about the next hand. You still care about the next hand, but I think
the 10x overshadows that concern. So you hold the high card, because that
yields the highest EV on this particular hand.
I hope this helps.
···
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 9:50 AM, vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>wrote:
**
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@...> wrote:
>
> DEFINITELY not. Since your actions on this hand affects the multiplier on
> your hand, you can't keep the multiplier and the hand strategy
"independent"
> like you can in STP.>>>>You mean your actions on this hand affects the multiplier on your NEXT
hand, don't you? Remember I'm talking about a single line Ultimate X game,
so you are playing for a single multiplier on the next hand, so why isn't
the strategy always the same?<< In STP you have no control over your multiplier; you
> either win it or you don't. In UX you have complete control over your
> multiplier.
>Understood.
> Your Multistrike analysis is very astute. In Multistrike, your optimal
> strategy is some mix of hit frequency (to get you to the next level) and
pay
> back contribution on that level. If you take too much in the pay back
> contribution category, you lose in the hit frequency category and lose in
> your overall EV. Likewise, if you take too much hit frequency, you are
> losing payback % on that particular level and losing in the overall EV.
The
> correct strategy is somewhere in between.
>Why isn't playing a single line Ultimate X game like always playing a level
3 hand in Multistrike? In both examples you are playing a strategy to
maximize return on the current hand plus get a multiplier on you next hand,
if and only if you win the current hand.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's not true, you need to learn a strategy for each different multiplier in CURRENT affect. Being single line makes it easier as you only need to learn a handful of strategies rather than hundreds with multi-lines (admittedly it's possible to shrink this down with only a small loss in EV)
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@> wrote:
>
> Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy: 99.1520%
>Thank's so much. That's the answer I was looking for, although not the result I was hoping for. The good news is the game is offered in a single line format so there is only one strategy to develop and learn if I understand correctly.
sorry, I didn't notice that this was already answered, and much better than my reply
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "kiwiboy4921" <waynes@...> wrote:
That's not true, you need to learn a strategy for each different multiplier in CURRENT affect. Being single line makes it easier as you only need to learn a handful of strategies rather than hundreds with multi-lines (admittedly it's possible to shrink this down with only a small loss in EV)
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rick E. Percy" <ricke.percy@> wrote:
> >
> > Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy: 99.1520%
> >
>
>
>
> Thank's so much. That's the answer I was looking for, although not the result I was hoping for. The good news is the game is offered in a single line format so there is only one strategy to develop and learn if I understand correctly.
>
Jason, It's not too hard to come up with an Average Multiplier given any single-strategy method. Since Vegasvpplayer specified an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy that would be used on each play (and also later specified the set of multipliers), the normal JoB final hand probabilities that are produced by most VP software (like WinPoker) can be used to find the expected value of the multipliers.
In this case, multiply each multiplier by its probability and sum them:
12 x 0.011512207 Full House
+ 10 x 0.011014511 Flush
+ 7 x 0.011229367 Straight
+ 4 x 0.074448699 Trips
+ 3 x 0.129278902 Two Pairs
+ 2 x 0.217081644 High Pair, Quads, SF, RF
+ 1 x 0.545434669 Garbage
= 1.992126628
I guess it is a matter of opinion, but 99.1520% may not really be that close to optimal as strategies go.
There is another single-line strategy that yields 99.6379%, which goes after straights, flushes, and full houses more aggressively than unmodified 9-6 JoB strategy, while going after royals, straight flushes, and quads less aggressively than unmodified 9-6 JoB strategy.
Of course, I agree with what you and others have said elsewhere that a 7-tier strategy would produce an even better expected return. ~Rick
···
________________________________
From: Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X
I'm very curious how you calculated the Average Multiplier? That is much
closer to 2 than I would have guessed it would be (and 99.1520% is much
closer to optimal than I would have guessed).
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Rick E. Percy <ricke.percy@yahoo.com>wrote:
**
Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB
strategy: 99.1520%Average multiplier would be 1.992127
times regular return 99.5439%
divided by 2 to account for 10-coin
bet instead of 5-coin bet.________________________________
From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using
an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
2X
2X
2X
12X
10X
7X
4X
3X
2X[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ah, that is a very good way of doing it, and easy too. Thanks for sharing.
···
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 11:32 PM, Rick E. Percy <ricke.percy@yahoo.com>wrote:
**
Jason, It's not too hard to come up with an Average Multiplier given any
single-strategy method. Since Vegasvpplayer specified an unmodified 9/6 JoB
strategy that would be used on each play (and also later specified the set
of multipliers), the normal JoB final hand probabilities that are produced
by most VP software (like WinPoker) can be used to find the expected value
of the multipliers.In this case, multiply each multiplier by its probability and sum them:
12 x 0.011512207 Full House
+ 10 x 0.011014511 Flush
+ 7 x 0.011229367 Straight
+ 4 x 0.074448699 Trips
+ 3 x 0.129278902 Two Pairs
+ 2 x 0.217081644 High Pair, Quads, SF, RF
+ 1 x 0.545434669 Garbage= 1.992126628
I guess it is a matter of opinion, but 99.1520% may not really be that
close to optimal as strategies go.There is another single-line strategy that yields 99.6379%, which goes
after straights, flushes, and full houses more aggressively than unmodified
9-6 JoB strategy, while going after royals, straight flushes, and quads less
aggressively than unmodified 9-6 JoB strategy.Of course, I agree with what you and others have said elsewhere that a
7-tier strategy would produce an even better expected return. ~Rick________________________________
From: Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@gmail.com>
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate XI'm very curious how you calculated the Average Multiplier? That is much
closer to 2 than I would have guessed it would be (and 99.1520% is much
closer to optimal than I would have guessed).On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Rick E. Percy <ricke.percy@yahoo.com > >wrote:
> **
>
>
> Return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using an unmodified 9/6 JoB
> strategy: 99.1520%
>
> Average multiplier would be 1.992127
> times regular return 99.5439%
> divided by 2 to account for 10-coin
> bet instead of 5-coin bet.
>
> ________________________________
> From: vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@gmail.com>
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 9:42 AM
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Ultimate X
>
>
>
>
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Vegasvpplayer <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone know what the return for 9/6 Jacks or Better Ultimate X is using
> an unmodified 9/6 JoB strategy? Thanks.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
>
> Btw, the multipliers are different from those I've seen on 8/6 JoB.
>
> 2X
> 2X
> 2X
> 12X
> 10X
> 7X
> 4X
> 3X
> 2X
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you for the example. Now I understand what you are saying. Hopefully the game will become popular enough that Bob or the Wizard will develop a working strategy.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jason Pawloski <jpawloski@...> wrote:
Here's a hypothetical example which may not be a strategy change in "real
life," I'm just using this to demonstrate my point.