vpFREE2 Forums

Two Questions

#1

In Gambling Like a Pro by Stanford Wong and Susan Spector quoting where they
are talking about how the video poker machine comes up with video poker
hands "One program contains all possible five-card combinations that can be
dealt from a 52 card deck along with the odds of actually hitting each
combination. It also contains the payoff schedule for each winning
combination. Another program tells the machine whether to let you win ,
depending on how you play the hand. Of course, you can't be allow to win
every hand-even if you make the right choices." Page 221.

Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?

I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

#3

The shufflemaster bj multi player machines in Vegas that I've seen shuffle up after every round. If you were to count, that would not help and you'd start to wonder why your big bets never seem to come in. Have you tried locking up all the seats with $1, $1, $1, $1, $50 so the count at the end may help a smidgen ? Most of the newer machines have been switched over to 6/5 BJ - unbeatable!

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@hotmail.com>
To: <vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

#4

Unclear to me if you mean the multi player machines that have the life
size images of the dealer on the screen, or the type of BJ you often
find on VP machines.

I can attest to the fairness of the Game King VP style BJ game. I've
played on one that pays 5 for 2 on BJ, single deck (shuffles every deal
of course), D10, H17, DAS and 6 Card Charlie. The 6 card Charlie makes
for radical strategy changes with 4 or more cards. I used to play it by
making strategy deviations based solely on composition dependent
strategy, but the 6 card charlie rule actually negates much of that.

Simulations I've run shows the game has a -0.24% EV and a SD of around
1.08 per hand. I've played around 75,000 hands ($10/hand) and have a
$400 loss, so I'm about 1/2 a SD to the right of expectation. Even with
a low variance game like this I've had some pretty crazy swings. I
rarely lose more than $800 in a session and I had an incredible run
over 4 consecutive sessions that netted a $3000 win and was a +3 SD
event.

SB

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...>
wrote:

I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to

consistently

lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy

is

the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines.

(Doubling

on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling

after

···

splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

#5

The Game King style machines with their decent rules are the only BJ
machines that I play. Thanks for your comments. I do make adjustments
based on how many cards I have drawn using Wong's book Basic Strategy. Do
you use anything beyond that? Maybe I just am in long term losing streak.

Rick

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of spartanbuckeye21
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 6:25 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Two Questions

Unclear to me if you mean the multi player machines that have the life
size images of the dealer on the screen, or the type of BJ you often
find on VP machines.

I can attest to the fairness of the Game King VP style BJ game. I've
played on one that pays 5 for 2 on BJ, single deck (shuffles every deal
of course), D10, H17, DAS and 6 Card Charlie. The 6 card Charlie makes
for radical strategy changes with 4 or more cards. I used to play it by
making strategy deviations based solely on composition dependent
strategy, but the 6 card charlie rule actually negates much of that.

Simulations I've run shows the game has a -0.24% EV and a SD of around
1.08 per hand. I've played around 75,000 hands ($10/hand) and have a
$400 loss, so I'm about 1/2 a SD to the right of expectation. Even with
a low variance game like this I've had some pretty crazy swings. I
rarely lose more than $800 in a session and I had an incredible run
over 4 consecutive sessions that netted a $3000 win and was a +3 SD
event.

SB

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...>
wrote:

I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to

consistently

lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy

is

the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines.

(Doubling

on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling

after

splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#6

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino simulates
playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software must
choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

"Another program tells the machine whether to let you win ,
depending on how you play the hand. Of course, you can't be allow to win every hand-even if you make the right choices."

I was not aware that a separate program determines if you win based on how you play the hand. Is this correct? So a casino could have a full-pay VP machine, but have this separate program set to not allow you to win?

I thought 5 cards are randomly dealt, then 5 backup cards are randomly dealt from the remaining 47 for will be held or not held.

Am I misunderstanding something?

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@...> wrote:

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

#8

I included this as a question only because the co-author of this book was
Stanford Wong and I assume he at least proofed the book (and he of all
people should know what he is talking about). The description for how cards
are chosen for VP in this book sounds more like a description of how a slot
machine works than how a VP machine works. That's why I questioned it and
sent it to this list for a response. Wong has written a book on VP and it
would be interesting to see how he describes the operation of the software
for VP in that book.

Rick

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Sam
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:47 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Two Questions

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ,
Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@...> wrote:

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and

then

replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines.

(Doubling

on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

"Another program tells the machine whether to let you win ,
depending on how you play the hand. Of course, you can't be allow to win
every hand-even if you make the right choices."

I was not aware that a separate program determines if you win based on how
you play the hand. Is this correct? So a casino could have a full-pay VP
machine, but have this separate program set to not allow you to win?

I thought 5 cards are randomly dealt, then 5 backup cards are randomly dealt
from the remaining 47 for will be held or not held.

Am I misunderstanding something?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

What percentage are you losing?

Cogno

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino simulates
playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software must
choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Probably somewhere between 2 and 2.5 percent.

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:36 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

What percentage are you losing?

Cogno

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino simulates
playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software must
choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

Ouch. Well, if it's me, I practice obsessively until I'm sure I'm not making
mistakes. But even so, you could just be running bad. I didn't ask how many
hands, but the variance of BJ is very low. Still, someone is going to run
bad.

Cogno

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 1:41 PM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

Probably somewhere between 2 and 2.5 percent.

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:36 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

What percentage are you losing?

Cogno

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino simulates
playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software must
choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#12

I have played as much as 20,000 hands of VB on a trip, and still receive wild swings of wins and loses...but over the course of a couple of hundred thousand hands played, EV gets back to around 100% with proper strategy.

Google 'Don Schlesinger ultimate blackjack' and get his Composition Dependent strategy cards, other strategy changes, go to the Wizard of Odds website. Lots more composition dependent info there including the 6 card charlie....

Good Luck

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...> wrote:

Probably somewhere between 2 and 2.5 percent.

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:36 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

What percentage are you losing?

Cogno

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino simulates
playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software must
choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and then
replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines. (Doubling
on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#13

I am not sure when the book was written that you refer to but if it is more than ten years old it may be out of date.

All VP machines that are less than 10 years old deal serially rather than parallel.

To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
From: rbgroff@cableone.net
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:19:28 -0600
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Two Questions

I included this as a question only because the co-author of this book was
Stanford Wong and I assume he at least proofed the book (and he of all
people should know what he is talking about). The description for how cards
are chosen for VP in this book sounds more like a description of how a slot
machine works than how a VP machine works. That's why I questioned it and
sent it to this list for a response. Wong has written a book on VP and it
would be interesting to see how he describes the operation of the software
for VP in that book.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of Sam
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 9:47 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Two Questions

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ,
Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@...> wrote:
>
> <<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
> wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and
then
> replace them randomly also?>>
>
> Your understanding is correct.
>
> <<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
> approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
> dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
> lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
> the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines.
(Doubling
> on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
> splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>
>
> 1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
> edge is more like 0.75%.
> 2) You are probably making mistakes.
>
> Cogno
>
"Another program tells the machine whether to let you win ,
depending on how you play the hand. Of course, you can't be allow to win
every hand-even if you make the right choices."

I was not aware that a separate program determines if you win based on how
you play the hand. Is this correct? So a casino could have a full-pay VP
machine, but have this separate program set to not allow you to win?

I thought 5 cards are randomly dealt, then 5 backup cards are randomly dealt
from the remaining 47 for will be held or not held.

Am I misunderstanding something?

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------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
Yahoo! Groups Links

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#14

That's a pretty fair game as far as video blackjack goes. Actually, as far as any blackjack goes. You've run a little bad perhaps, but trust the game, and learn some more refinements. Another poster or two in this thread mentioned the 6-card Charlie. Refine that! It's worth more than you might think. Then it sounds like you're using composition-dependent strategy. That's good. I've studied Wizard of Odds' charts and simplified a couple rules for myself.

3-card 16 v T, stand if there's a 5 in the hand, hit if there's a 6 in the hand.

3-card 16 v 9, stand if no 7s are out, hit if there is.

But learn the Charlie rules.

Speaking of Charlie, is there anything more FUN in the world than hitting a 5-card 21 on these machines?

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...> wrote:

The Game King style machines with their decent rules are the only BJ
machines that I play. Thanks for your comments. I do make adjustments
based on how many cards I have drawn using Wong's book Basic Strategy. Do
you use anything beyond that? Maybe I just am in long term losing streak.

#15

I always appreciate your personal emails and I hadn't taken the time to
personally thank you for your response. There are so many choices to make.
The Wizard of Odds suggest splitting against certain cards, which Wong in
his book on basic strategy says not to split in single deck blackjack if the
player can only double on a two card total of 10 or 11. My plan was to run
simulations and see what the best choices are. The Casino Verite basic
simulation program does not offer nearly enough options to actually
determine which are the best choices and I don't want to pay for their
advanced program. I suspect that these options make little difference in
the overall payoff or these authors would agree.

I have also ordered Don Schlesinger's composition dependent strategy card
for single deck blackjack. It will probably just confuse me more to compare
it to Wong's basic strategy and to the Wizard of Odds.

I met your wife some years ago when I was playing NSUD she was playing VBJ
at the Xanadu bar in the Atlantis. Perhaps you and I will meet at an
Atlantis VBJ machine sometime.

Thanks Again

Rick Groff

···

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com] On
Behalf Of MikeA
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 8:59 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE_Reno] Re: Two Questions

I have played as much as 20,000 hands of VB on a trip, and still receive
wild swings of wins and loses...but over the course of a couple of hundred
thousand hands played, EV gets back to around 100% with proper strategy.

Google 'Don Schlesinger ultimate blackjack' and get his Composition
Dependent strategy cards, other strategy changes, go to the Wizard of Odds
website. Lots more composition dependent info there including the 6 card
charlie....

Good Luck

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...> wrote:

Probably somewhere between 2 and 2.5 percent.

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On

Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:36 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

What percentage are you losing?

Cogno

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]

On
Behalf Of Rick and Becky Groff
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 7:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

It is my understanding that according to Nevada law when a casino

simulates

playing cards such as in video black jack or video poker, the software

must

choose randomly from a deck of 52 cards (53 in jokers wild?). So playing
any of these games is supposed to be like playing from a deck that is
shuffled after each hand. This is why it is possible to calculate the
payoff on a video poker machine. I undoubtedly make some mistakes.
However, the basics for playing 21 are fairly straightforward on a VBJ
machine and I don't think that accounts for my losses.

Rick

From: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:vpFREE_R…@…com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com> ]
On
Behalf Of Cogno Scienti
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 11:40 AM
To: vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>

<mailto:vpFREE_Reno%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE_Reno] Two Questions

<<Is this how the programming really works? This makes no sense to me. Why
wouldn't the program just randomly choose five cards from the deck and

then

replace them randomly also?>>

Your understanding is correct.

<<I play a lot of video blackjack where I should be losing at a rate of
approximately 0.4-0.5%, which converts to a loss of $4-$5 per thousand
dollars gambled (I typically play $1.00 per hand.). I seem to consistently
lose at a faster rate than this and don't understand why. My strategy is
the basic strategy taking into account the rules on the machines.

(Doubling

on 10s and 11s only, blackjacks pay 3/2, splitting allowed, doubling after
splitting, etc.) Does anyone have any thoughts about this?>>

1) Assuming the dealer hits 17, six decks, and late surrender, the house
edge is more like 0.75%.
2) You are probably making mistakes.

Cogno

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#16

Wizard has excellent composition dependent advice. But much of it is moot because the 6-card Charlie rule more or less overrides it. (not always) Obviously you would hit a five-card total of 16 versus anything, no matter what the hand is made up of.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Rick and Becky Groff" <rbgroff@...> wrote:

I have also ordered Don Schlesinger's composition dependent strategy card
for single deck blackjack. It will probably just confuse me more to compare
it to Wong's basic strategy and to the Wizard of Odds.

#17

Even against a dealer 5 or 6?

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

But much of it is moot because the 6-card Charlie rule more or less overrides it. (not always) Obviously you would hit a five-card total of 16 versus anything, no matter what the hand is made up of.

#18

Yes. Keep in mind that if you spike a small card it is an automatic win, never a push.

I just looked at Wizard's Charlie page. I felt something was different and sure enough, it says he updated it in February. Well, I was playing a lot of video blackjack before that and had burned those tables into my brain. But something is different, I am sure of it. He has included some more tables regarding splitting. Also, regarding hard-17, I am sure he has added a HIT when a five-card total against 2 and 3. I know it was a hit against 9,T,and Ace, and I've been doing that forever. But the 2 and 3 is new. I will look at his page again when I get home, I've got to run.

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@> wrote:
>
> But much of it is moot because the 6-card Charlie rule more or less overrides it. (not always) Obviously you would hit a five-card total of 16 versus anything, no matter what the hand is made up of.
>

Even against a dealer 5 or 6?

#19

I just looked again at Wizard's page and I notice he says to "defer to Wong's charlie strategy" when there are slight differences. Like I said, I have to run right now, and I don't have Wong in front of me. If you or anyone else sees something different from what I have interpreted to be correct, PLEASE point it out to me. I rely on the experts, and if I misunderstand something they say, that is not good. lol I am always open to and welcome anybody to correct something I have said that is wrong. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. It will be a big help to me to see my mistakes. Thanks!

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@...> wrote:

Even against a dealer 5 or 6?

#20

Ok, I was curious enough, I had to look at Wong's book. You were right to ask me about that, Vegasvpplayer. I see there are some differences. Now I will have to reevaluate. Oooh, MY HEAD HURTS!

···

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Bartop" <bobbartop@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE_Reno@yahoogroups.com, "vegasvpplayer" <vegasvpplayer@> wrote:
>

>
>
> Even against a dealer 5 or 6?
>

I just looked again at Wizard's page and I notice he says to "defer to Wong's charlie strategy" when there are slight differences. Like I said, I have to run right now, and I don't have Wong in front of me. If you or anyone else sees something different from what I have interpreted to be correct, PLEASE point it out to me. I rely on the experts, and if I misunderstand something they say, that is not good. lol I am always open to and welcome anybody to correct something I have said that is wrong. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong. It will be a big help to me to see my mistakes. Thanks!