vpFREE2 Forums

Tribal VP Gambling

Thanks for the first good reply. There was a small square of LEDs at the top of the machine near the players card slot. Was that the "Bingo" card? The LEDs were always on.

CK

···

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net> wrote:

From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:01 AM

      We have discussed Class II here before. What it means is that the game is not based on a normal 52 card (or 53 for joker) deck. The result is determined on the deal using either a bingo or lottery based system. What you hold does not affect the result. If you completely foul up a hand there will be something like a "genie" (IGT) or a "match card bonus" that will restore the intended result. If you see something like this or a bingo card the game is almost certainly Class II. These games are usually 90% or less and in some Class II states that payback is limited by law. I believe that some Oklahoma games are Class III. I think the vpFree2 database lists some Class III for Oklahoma. Most Tribal casinos are now Class III. How they "scalp" the players is that usually a game like 6-5 jacks or 20-7-5 joker is a great(?) game at these facilities. As long as the players will put up with this, there is no reason to offer better and no reason for the casino
to "cheat". Where there is competition, you will find some decent games. The vpFree2 database is a good place to look.

-----Original Message-----

From: Andrew <listmail@skierlaw. com>

Sent: Jun 26, 2009 8:39 AM

To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?

Bill Coleman wrote:

Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a

minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around

75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure

about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that

return less than around 84%.

Hope this helps.

At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:

>I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).

>If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage

really is.

>NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.

>There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated

>casino's require).

>

>--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com >> <mailto:chetkl% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>

>

>From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com <mailto:chetkl% 40yahoo.com> >

>Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

>To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com <mailto:vpFREE% 40yahoogroups. com>

>Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM

>

>

>

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>

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>

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>The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in

>Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."

>

>We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and

>came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This

>tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas

>"Class 3" machine.

>

>These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81

>when we left which probably increase the payoff odds

>

>Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2

>or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?

>

>Chetk

>

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>----------- --------- --------- -------

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>vpFREE Links: http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm

<http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm>

>

>Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date: 06/25/09 17:58:00

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the first good reply. *There was a small square of LEDs* at the

top of the machine near the players card slot. Was that the "Bingo" card?
The LEDs were always on.

Yes! Sorry, that was bingo.

OK has more casinos than any other state outside NV.

The 9/6 is a joke, you're playing bingo against everybody in the casino, and
it looks like 8/6 but you're playing bingo.

Sorry, they're very deceptive. Be glad you got you money back. Perfect
strategy has no effect on outcome.

CK

From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:01 AM

We have discussed Class II here before. What it means is that the game is

not based on a normal 52 card (or 53 for joker) deck. The result is
determined on the deal using either a bingo or lottery based system. What
you hold does not affect the result. If you completely foul up a hand there
will be something like a "genie" (IGT) or a "match card bonus" that will
restore the intended result. If you see something like this or a bingo card
the game is almost certainly Class II. These games are usually 90% or less
and in some Class II states that payback is limited by law. I believe that
some Oklahoma games are Class III. I think the vpFree2 database lists some
Class III for Oklahoma. Most Tribal casinos are now Class III. How they
"scalp" the players is that usually a game like 6-5 jacks or 20-7-5 joker is
a great(?) game at these facilities. As long as the players will put up with
this, there is no reason to offer better and no reason for the casino

to "cheat". Where there is competition, you will find some decent games.

The vpFree2 database is a good place to look.

>From: Andrew <listmail@skierlaw. com>

>Sent: Jun 26, 2009 8:39 AM

>To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com

>Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

>

>Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?

>

>

>Bill Coleman wrote:

>>

>>

>> Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a

>>

>> minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around

>> 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure

>> about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that

>> return less than around 84%.

>>

>> Hope this helps.

>>

>> >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).

>> >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage

>> really is.

>> >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.

>> >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated

>> >casino's require).

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com <mailto:chetkl% <chetkl%25>

40yahoo.com> >

>> >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

>> >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com <mailto:vpFREE% <vpFREE%25> 40yahoogroups.

>> >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in

>> >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."

>> >

>> >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and

>> >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This

>> >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas

>> >"Class 3" machine.

>> >

>> >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81

>> >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds

>> >

>> >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2

>> >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?

>> >

>> >Chetk

>> >

>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> >

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>> >

>> >----------- --------- --------- -------

>> >

>> >vpFREE Links: http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm

>> <http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm>

>> >

>> >Yahoo! Groups Links

>> >

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>>

>>

>> No virus found in this incoming message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date:

06/25/09 17:58:00

>>

>>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
>> At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
>> >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com > > >> <mailto:chetkl% <chetkl%25> 40yahoo.com> > wrote:

Not the *first* good reply, they have all been good replies. I assure you that in the future should you see a post by Bill Coleman, you should click on it. His info is solid. And Annie was trying to tell you also that short term results can be deceiving. You and your wife played for 5 hours and you thought coming out even was a good indication of their fairness. Don't kid yourself. It doesn't matter if you played all weekend, that's not enough play to mean anything statistically.

Btw, if those WERE actually Class 3 machines, then you would have been playing at a small advantage if playing good strategy at that size jackpot.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, chet Klyn <chetkl@...> wrote:

Thanks for the first good reply.

I doubled-checked today (faulty memory of middle age) and OK is still a Class II state. That means that all VP works like slot machines, probably based on Bingo. Usually, you will see an actual Bingo card somewhere on the machine but not always.

Bill

···

At 07:11 AM 6/26/2009, you wrote:

Thanks for the first good reply. There was a small square of LEDs at the top of the machine near the players card slot. Was that the "Bingo" card? The LEDs were always on.

CK

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net> wrote:

From: Howard W. Stern <howard.w.stern@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 9:01 AM

      We have discussed Class II here before. What it means is that the game is not based on a normal 52 card (or 53 for joker) deck. The result is determined on the deal using either a bingo or lottery based system. What you hold does not affect the result. If you completely foul up a hand there will be something like a "genie" (IGT) or a "match card bonus" that will restore the intended result. If you see something like this or a bingo card the game is almost certainly Class II. These games are usually 90% or less and in some Class II states that payback is limited by law. I believe that some Oklahoma games are Class III. I think the vpFree2 database lists some Class III for Oklahoma. Most Tribal casinos are now Class III. How they "scalp" the players is that usually a game like 6-5 jacks or 20-7-5 joker is a great(?) game at these facilities. As long as the players will put up with this, there is no reason to offer better and no reason for the casino
to "cheat". Where there is competition, you will find some decent games. The vpFree2 database is a good place to look.

-----Original Message-----

>From: Andrew <listmail@skierlaw. com>

>Sent: Jun 26, 2009 8:39 AM

>To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com

>Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

>

>Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?

>

>

>Bill Coleman wrote:

>>

>>

>> Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a

>>

>> minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around

>> 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure

>> about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that

>> return less than around 84%.

>>

>> Hope this helps.

>>

>> At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:

>> >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).

>> >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage

>> really is.

>> >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.

>> >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated

>> >casino's require).

>> >

>> >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com > > >> <mailto:chetkl% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>> >

>> >

>> >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo. com <mailto:chetkl% 40yahoo.com> >

>> >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling

>> >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups. com <mailto:vpFREE% 40yahoogroups. com>

>> >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in

>> >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."

>> >

>> >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and

>> >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This

>> >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas

>> >"Class 3" machine.

>> >

>> >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81

>> >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds

>> >

>> >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2

>> >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?

>> >

>> >Chetk

>> >

>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >----------- --------- --------- -------

>> >

>> >vpFREE Links: http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm

>> <http://members. cox.net/vpfree/ Links.htm>

>> >

>> >Yahoo! Groups Links

>> >

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>>

>>

>> No virus found in this incoming message.

>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

>> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date: 06/25/09 17:58:00

>>

>>

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

I've read on different places on the internet that it is BOTH. Class 2 and Class 3. Can that be?

-BB

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:

I doubled-checked today (faulty memory of middle age) and OK is still
a Class II state. That means that all VP works like slot machines,
probably based on Bingo. Usually, you will see an actual Bingo card
somewhere on the machine but not always.

That is possible, Tribal casinos are ALWAYS allowed to have Class II machines, and often when a compact is signed there is a period where the casinos have both types.

However, my source (at a large casino in OK) was pretty sure there is no Class III. I can't give a definitive answer, though.

Bill

···

At 01:00 PM 6/26/2009, you wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
>
> I doubled-checked today (faulty memory of middle age) and OK is still
> a Class II state. That means that all VP works like slot machines,
> probably based on Bingo. Usually, you will see an actual Bingo card
> somewhere on the machine but not always.
>

I've read on different places on the internet that it is BOTH. Class 2 and Class 3. Can that be?

-BB

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links