vpFREE2 Forums

Tribal VP Gambling

#1

I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage really is.
NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated casino's require).

···

--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM

The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."

We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas "Class 3" machine.

These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81 when we left which probably increase the payoff odds

Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2 or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?

Chetk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Sorry, you are not correct on a number of points.

First, where there is no competition you get lousy pay tables just like in commercial jurisdictions.

Second, the machines are not offered with paytables lower than about 94%.

Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that return less than around 84%.

Hope this helps.

···

At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:

I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage really is.
NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated casino's require).

--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com>
Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM

The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."

We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas "Class 3" machine.

These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81 when we left which probably increase the payoff odds

Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2 or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?

Chetk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#3

Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?

Bill Coleman wrote:

···

Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a

minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around
75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure
about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that
return less than around 84%.

Hope this helps.

At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
>I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
>If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage really is.
>NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
>There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated
>casino's require).
>
>--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>>
>Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
>To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
>
>The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in
>Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."
>
>We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and
>came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This
>tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas
>"Class 3" machine.
>
>These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81
>when we left which probably increase the payoff odds
>
>Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2
>or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?
>
>Chetk
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>------------------------------------
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date: 06/25/09 17:58:00

#4

By the regulatory authority set up in that jurisdiction. All Indian casinos are regulated by the Federal Government and their Tribal authority. Additionally in many states the State also regulates them. Every state with commercial casinos and racinos has a regulatory body. So yes, my statement is objective fact.

A number of people poo-poo this setup for tribal casinos. A number of people also believe that most casinos including those in Nevada gaff the machines to cheat them. A number of people also believe in Santa Claus. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.

Please don't respond again with your skepticism unless you can back it up with FACTS.

···

At 06:39 AM 6/26/2009, you wrote:

Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?

Bill Coleman wrote:
>
> Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a
>
> minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around
> 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure
> about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that
> return less than around 84%.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
> >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
> >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage
> really is.
> >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
> >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated
> >casino's require).
> >
> >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>>
> >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
> >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
> >
> >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in
> >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."
> >
> >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and
> >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This
> >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas
> >"Class 3" machine.
> >
> >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81
> >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds
> >
> >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2
> >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?
> >
> >Chetk
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date: 06/25/09 17:58:00
>

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#5

Bill Coleman wrote:

···

By the regulatory authority set up in that jurisdiction. All Indian
casinos are regulated by the Federal Government and their Tribal
authority. Additionally in many states the State also regulates them.
Every state with commercial casinos and racinos has a regulatory
body. So yes, my statement is objective fact.

A number of people poo-poo this setup for tribal casinos. A number of
people also believe that most casinos including those in Nevada gaff
the machines to cheat them. A number of people also believe in Santa
Claus. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.

---------
I'll respond again with my skepticism because of the vague term "regulated" and the continued lack of being able to point out just which casinos have independently certified and publicly released audits. In addition, there is no independent central place to check which casinos have supervised and tested installations of tables and slots and continuing independent or state government supervision of their operation, as is the case most notably in Nevada and New Jersey. Until such time, it is more than fair to continue to raise those and similar questions.

#6

. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.

Please don't respond again with your skepticism unless you can back
it up with FACTS.

these FACTS are found at:

http://www.ok.gov/OGC/Frequently_Asked_Questions/index.html

Who regulates Indian Gaming?

Indian tribes are the primary regulators of Class II gaming. Regulation of Class III gaming may be addressed in Tribal-State compacts and varies by state with tribes remaining the primary regulator in most states.

In Oklahoma, the tribes are the primary regulators of both Class II and Class III gaming.

Both Class II and Class III gaming are subject to the provisions of the IGRA and oversight by the NIGC.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby2@...> wrote:
----------------------------------------
3 of the casinos in the Tulsa area at the dollar level have JOB at 8/6 and the DDB games at 9/6. Just got back from Vegas and there wasn't anything that good on the strip. In the far northeastern corner of Oklahoma near Joplin, Mo., there is 'Downstream Casino' with at least two JOB at 9/6. Thats 90 minutes and 103 degrees and high humidity, northeast of Tulsa.

The site also has other interesting Tribal Gaming Facts

#7

Why so testy, Bill?

All I did was ask a question. Skepticism is healthy.

I've never heard of a Federal authority charged with regulating Native American casinos. Care to be more specific? Please state not only the name of this authority and the scope of their authority to "regulate."

I know for a fact that the casinos (Class II) around my area are mostly regulated only by the "Tribal Councils." They are located on sovereign land and outside State jurisdiction. Any complaints must be taken before the Tribal Court. Good luck winning a dispute with those jokers.

There is no regulatory authority set up in my state, and the few local governmental bodies that have been set up are so weak and so deep in the pockets of the operators that there would be no hope of prevailing in a dispute against the casino.

If that's what passes for "regulation" in your mind, fine. But to use your own words, some people also believe in Santa Claus.

Bill Coleman wrote:

···

By the regulatory authority set up in that jurisdiction. All Indian
casinos are regulated by the Federal Government and their Tribal
authority. Additionally in many states the State also regulates them.
Every state with commercial casinos and racinos has a regulatory
body. So yes, my statement is objective fact.

A number of people poo-poo this setup for tribal casinos. A number of
people also believe that most casinos including those in Nevada gaff
the machines to cheat them. A number of people also believe in Santa
Claus. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.

Please don't respond again with your skepticism unless you can back
it up with FACTS.

At 06:39 AM 6/26/2009, you wrote:
>Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?
>
>Bill Coleman wrote:
> >
> > Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a
> >
> > minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around
> > 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure
> > about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that
> > return less than around 84%.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
> > >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
> > >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage
> > really is.
> > >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
> > >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated
> > >casino's require).
> > >
> > >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com> <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>>
> > >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
> > >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
> > >
> > >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in
> > >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."
> > >
> > >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and
> > >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This
> > >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas
> > >"Class 3" machine.
> > >
> > >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81
> > >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds
> > >
> > >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2
> > >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?
> > >
> > >Chetk
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> > <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date:
> 06/25/09 17:58:00
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2203 - Release Date: 06/26/09 05:53:00

#8

The National Indian Gaming Commission, under the Department of the Interior. I have posted this many times before.
Here's a link to the law:
http://www.nigc.gov/LawsRegulations/IndianGamingRegulatoryAct/tabid/605/Default.aspx

Please note that the "fact" you cite regarding your local Class II casinos is not true. While they are regulated by their tribes they are also regulated by NIGC.

I'm testy because of the paranoia of so many people who believe they are constantly being cheated by the industry. In fact, I have yet to come across management of a significant gaming company (outside of a very few Indian casinos) who are smart enough to figure out the risks of the games they offer, much less how to cheat the customers. I am surprised at how many of them seem to find their way home at night <g>.

Bill

···

At 08:40 AM 6/28/2009, you wrote:

Why so testy, Bill?

All I did was ask a question. Skepticism is healthy.

I've never heard of a Federal authority charged with regulating Native
American casinos. Care to be more specific? Please state not only the
name of this authority and the scope of their authority to "regulate."

I know for a fact that the casinos (Class II) around my area are mostly
regulated only by the "Tribal Councils." They are located on sovereign
land and outside State jurisdiction. Any complaints must be taken
before the Tribal Court. Good luck winning a dispute with those jokers.

There is no regulatory authority set up in my state, and the few local
governmental bodies that have been set up are so weak and so deep in the
pockets of the operators that there would be no hope of prevailing in a
dispute against the casino.

If that's what passes for "regulation" in your mind, fine. But to use
your own words, some people also believe in Santa Claus.

Bill Coleman wrote:
>
> By the regulatory authority set up in that jurisdiction. All Indian
> casinos are regulated by the Federal Government and their Tribal
> authority. Additionally in many states the State also regulates them.
> Every state with commercial casinos and racinos has a regulatory
> body. So yes, my statement is objective fact.
>
> A number of people poo-poo this setup for tribal casinos. A number of
> people also believe that most casinos including those in Nevada gaff
> the machines to cheat them. A number of people also believe in Santa
> Claus. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.
>
> Please don't respond again with your skepticism unless you can back
> it up with FACTS.
>
> At 06:39 AM 6/26/2009, you wrote:
> >Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?
> >
> >Bill Coleman wrote:
> > >
> > > Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a
> > >
> > > minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around
> > > 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure
> > > about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that
> > > return less than around 84%.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> > >
> > > At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
> > > >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
> > > >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage
> > > really is.
> > > >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
> > > >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated
> > > >casino's require).
> > > >
> > > >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@yahoo.com <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>
> <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>>
> > > >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
> > > >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
> > > >
> > > >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in
> > > >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."
> > > >
> > > >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and
> > > >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This
> > > >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas
> > > >"Class 3" machine.
> > > >
> > > >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81
> > > >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds
> > > >
> > > >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2
> > > >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?
> > > >
> > > >Chetk
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> > > <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm > <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>>
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date:
> > 06/25/09 17:58:00
> > >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2203 - Release Date: 06/26/09 05:53:00
>

------------------------------------

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#9

This in reference to the minimum paybacks mentioned earlier. A buddy of mine, that I play poker regularly with, was an accountant in a Nevada casino. His main job was to audit the machines. He said he rarely saw anything higher than in the 60% range of payouts. This was on multi game poker machines and single game poker machines. Also, the pay schedule made no difference in his audit reports. It didn't matter if it was full pay or a poor pay schedule. Take it as you want but that makes me wonder. Machines may not be gaffed but there is more to it than most people think. I also come from the school of though that machines are not completely random or what we want to believe as completely random. Anything computer driven can be manipulated and made to do as told. My wife also had an interesting conversation with one of the gaming commissioners that also made me think twice. I wont get into that because I don't want the tongue lashing from the "by the book" people. I cant say these are concrete facts but they come from good sources. Just giving my thoughts.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <listmail@...> wrote:

Why so testy, Bill?

All I did was ask a question. Skepticism is healthy.

I've never heard of a Federal authority charged with regulating Native
American casinos. Care to be more specific? Please state not only the
name of this authority and the scope of their authority to "regulate."

I know for a fact that the casinos (Class II) around my area are mostly
regulated only by the "Tribal Councils." They are located on sovereign
land and outside State jurisdiction. Any complaints must be taken
before the Tribal Court. Good luck winning a dispute with those jokers.

There is no regulatory authority set up in my state, and the few local
governmental bodies that have been set up are so weak and so deep in the
pockets of the operators that there would be no hope of prevailing in a
dispute against the casino.

If that's what passes for "regulation" in your mind, fine. But to use
your own words, some people also believe in Santa Claus.

Bill Coleman wrote:
>
>
> By the regulatory authority set up in that jurisdiction. All Indian
> casinos are regulated by the Federal Government and their Tribal
> authority. Additionally in many states the State also regulates them.
> Every state with commercial casinos and racinos has a regulatory
> body. So yes, my statement is objective fact.
>
> A number of people poo-poo this setup for tribal casinos. A number of
> people also believe that most casinos including those in Nevada gaff
> the machines to cheat them. A number of people also believe in Santa
> Claus. Do as you wish, I can only provide objective facts, not opinions.
>
> Please don't respond again with your skepticism unless you can back
> it up with FACTS.
>
> At 06:39 AM 6/26/2009, you wrote:
> >Really? Every casino in the US is regulated? By whom?
> >
> >
> >Bill Coleman wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Every casino in the US, tribal or not, is regulated and there is a
> > >
> > > minimum payback allowed. Most jurisdictions have that floor at around
> > > 75% like Nevada although no one (or maybe almost no one, I'm not sure
> > > about some of the small Class II only vendors) offer machines that
> > > return less than around 84%.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> > >
> > > At 05:07 PM 6/25/2009, you wrote:
> > > >I wouldnt assume 99% (short term results can be VERY misleading).
> > > >If you post the pay table, someone can tell you what the percentage
> > > really is.
> > > >NA casino usually have poor pay tables that are nowhere close to 99%.
> > > >There is not a mimimum % of payback (that Vegas and other regulated
> > > >casino's require).
> > > >
> > > >--- On Thu, 6/25/09, chet Klyn <chetkl@... > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >From: chet Klyn <chetkl@... <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>
> <mailto:chetkl%40yahoo.com>>
> > > >Subject: [vpFREE] Tribal VP Gambling
> > > >To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:vpFREE%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The wife and I just returned from a day up at an Indian casino up in
> > > >Oklahoma. I understand that all the machines there are "Class 2."
> > > >
> > > >We found a bunch of JOB 9/6 machines and played for 4-5 hours and
> > > >came out even for the day. I was down what the wife was up. This
> > > >tells me that the payoffs might be around the 99.54% of a Vegas
> > > >"Class 3" machine.
> > > >
> > > >These machines were progressives and the $.50 royal was $2697.81
> > > >when we left which probably increase the payoff odds
> > > >
> > > >Is there a difference between payouts or play on a full pay Class 2
> > > >or Class 3 machine? Is there any different way to play it?
> > > >
> > > >Chetk
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> > > <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>>
> > > >
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2202 - Release Date:
> > 06/25/09 17:58:00
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> <http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm>
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.92/2203 - Release Date: 06/26/09 05:53:00
>
>