3a. Re: Tresspassed at Riviera for Asking a Question
Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 3:47 pm ((PST))
Additional information on how this stuff "works" -- again, my experience is from blackjack barrings, with none of them in the past decade, the period when I've switched to VP and poker.
I see no reason why VP barrings would be handled any differently, though.
Even if you're playing to make money AND for entertainment, these barrings eventually wear on you, and if it's not the way you make your primary living, eventually you move on to some other form of entertainment, where you may or may not have the same advantage, but you can have fun, play as well as you can, and not be asked to leave for playing well.
First time I was barred was at Stardust; dealer was "Jorge" for most of the two hours I played before the barring. Came back two years later to play a short while (I enjoyed going back into places I'd been barred and making a quick win and exit if possible) - for the first time since the barring. Put my two $100 bills on the table, and the dealer shouts out to the pit boss (as is routine) "George, changing $200". "George" looks over, and I look at him. It's "Jorge" - and he does a double-take when he sees me, like nobody's business -- no doubt in my mind that he remembers me; I play a few quick hands and leave.
Some of these dealers are amazing. I was playing with a friend at Westward Ho, same era, not seated next to each other, and not talking to each other. Dealer says she thinks she's dealt to me before. I tell her (the truth) that I've never played at Westward Ho before. She deals a few more hands, and then says "It was at the Stardust - and you too", pointing at my friend. Amazingly, she was right - but that was 10 months ago!! As for me, I didn't remember her.
My barring at Barbary Coast (which I later learned was one of the most counter-paranoid casinos) was the quickest and rudest. Played for 10 minutes, was losing, when the pit boss came up from INSIDE the pit (usually they come up behind you and you get the shoulder tap) and pushed my bet off the betting spot, saying "that was your last bet" - I asked why, and it was repeated. Nothing courteous about it. On the other extreme, Westward Ho eventually barred me with "we're just a little place trying to get started, and we can't handle someone who plays as well as you" and they did NOT pull my comp for the remainder of my stay.
My final barring was at Treasure Island. I went back to play VP, which had become my game of choice along with poker, but had a few minutes to kill while waiting for a friend, so sat down at a blackjack table. Pit boss comes up from behind and says "didn't I ask you not to play blackjack here anymore?" -- it was the same one who barred me six months earlier -- I explained that I was now just playing video poker (she said, "yeah, I saw you over there") and that I was just killing a few minutes while waiting for a friend, and she said to stick to the video poker.
At least I was still allowed to play that -- and hit a $5 royal (my first) while there that trip! There is some justice in the world (not to mention how much I'd taken them for at blackjack before the barring).
I asked, and was told that they "would probably know me" at the other Mirage properties as well - so I lost access to some of the best blackjack games in Vegas at the time. Interestingly, I continued to go to TI and Mirage for a long time, playing lots of VP with NO heat, and this was in the era of 0.67% cash back where games were straightforward positive EV (ignoring tax considerations, which I think makes ALL games above $0.25 negative), and with generous comps - RFB at these nice properties, who would not let me come in and play blackjack.
Sure, they have the photo books for "real" cheats, and with advantage players mixed in the same book, but they often recognize you without checking the book.
I agree that there are a lot of legitimate reasons for security to ask for your ID -- but I don't understand why they wouldn't tell you the reason if it WAS indeed legitimate.
And I've always thought that casinos MUST be kicking out people who are good customers based on incorrect judgements that they are advantage players - I've seen many blackjack players who clearly don't know what they're doing, but who vary their bets like a card counter -- and I'm sure some of them are asked to leave, and can't figure out why on earth it happened (because they MAY tell you that "you're too good for us" - or they may just repeat their line: "don't play blackjack here anymore" without any further explanation -- I've heard both).
Of course, now play is tracked much more closely and with more high tech, so their barrings may be much more precise than they used to be. If I were a casino consultant, it would be very easy for me to tell them (as it would be for most of us) which games to watch, what data to collect, when to get suspicious of a player, and how to check that player's data to confirm your suspicions or rule them out, with a high index of statistical certainty.
And then, what they can EXPECT it to cost them if they continue to allow that player to play, or how much / how little they can expect to win from him/her, how much (if anything) is appropriate to comp that player, and so on. Once you have the data, the math is pretty easy.
I do believe that it is almost always advantageous for casinos to allow advantage players to play, as long as they don't get greedy -- having the rest of the world think ("know") that some of the games can be beaten, but not having a clue how to do so, will keep the rest of the world playing and paying. And I think "the rest of the world" is major turned off when they witness a barring (I always used to come back to the table and as I'd leave, explain to the others at the table "they don't want you to play here if they think you might win").
--BG
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