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Tresspassed at Riviera for Asking a Question

You have the right to refuse to show your ID in a casino. They have the
right to 86 you. Is the former worth the latter?

My advice: If asked for your ID, just say, "Sure!" and hand it over. Where's
the harm, unless you've ALREADY been 86'd, and are trying to sneak back in!

You've already shown your ID, and had your personal information recorded,
when you got your player's card. Showing it to a security guard when requested,
in a friendly manner, is just good sense. Failure to do so will naturally
bring suspicion upon yourself, whether deserved or not. Citing "legal" reasons
not to will only make things worse, IMO.

"Probable cause" applies to searches. Asking for your ID is not a search,
and you may refuse. But there will probably be consequences if you do. I am
VERY big on personal privacy, but am also aware that you give up much of it when
playing (with a player's card) in a casino. Life is full of compromises!

Brian

···

========================================

In a message dated 1/6/2008 9:08:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
getinholdon@aol.com writes:

I have no sympathy for what happened to you because of your mouthing off to
what amounts to authority, be it a robber with a gun or a security guard in
a
casino.

You sure know how to twist someone's words around.

Sounded to me like he was being assertive (which I do A LOT , without
soundind demanding...)?? not "mouthing off".

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You have the right to refuse to show your ID in a casino. They have

the

right to 86 you.

Agreed. I strongly suggest all players read the following book:
http://tinyurl.com/28w9lr

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

Contrary to Starhunter's belief, "probable cause" has absolutely
nothing to do with the actions of the casino. They don't need any
reason to ask for ID from anyone in their establishment. And that's
not restricted to Nevada -- it applies pretty much across the board
in all states. And it applies to pretty much any private actor,
especially private actors operating businesses that are heavily
regulated by the state.

FWIW, GOVERNMENTS must have "probable cause" to arrest or obtain
search warrants. They only need "reasonable suspicion" to stop and
interview.

You have the right to refuse to show your ID in a casino. They have

the

right to 86 you. Is the former worth the latter?

My advice: If asked for your ID, just say, "Sure!" and hand it

over. Where's

the harm, unless you've ALREADY been 86'd, and are trying to sneak

back in!

You've already shown your ID, and had your personal information

recorded,

when you got your player's card. Showing it to a security guard

when requested,

in a friendly manner, is just good sense. Failure to do so will

naturally

bring suspicion upon yourself, whether deserved or not.

Citing "legal" reasons

not to will only make things worse, IMO.

"Probable cause" applies to searches. Asking for your ID is not a

search,

and you may refuse. But there will probably be consequences if you

do. I am

VERY big on personal privacy, but am also aware that you give up

much of it when

playing (with a player's card) in a casino. Life is full of

compromises!

Brian

========================================

In a message dated 1/6/2008 9:08:34 AM Pacific Standard Time,
getinholdon@... writes:

I have no sympathy for what happened to you because of your

mouthing off to

what amounts to authority, be it a robber with a gun or a security

guard in

a
casino.

You sure know how to twist someone's words around.

Sounded to me like he was being assertive (which I do A LOT ,

without

soundind demanding...)?? not "mouthing off".

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in

shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?

NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@... wrote:

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't know Nercesian had a book. Thanks for the headsup. This is
going to be one interesting read.

I know who Nercesian is. If your ever find yourself in a beef or you
think you have a beef with a Nevada casino this guy is the lawyer you
want. Nevada lawyers are of the mindset that the casinos are always
right. It's a mindset that permeates Nevada culture. Politicians,
lawyers, judges, cops, prosecutors, bureaucrats, are all lackeys for
the casino industry.

Why? Follow the money and see where it leads you. Nevada isn't like
New Jersey, with one little town with gambling. The casino industry
has all the money in this state. They're puppeteers.

Nevada judges know full well that a citizen has no right to expect
another citizen to show them I.D. upon demand. (The Riviera security
guard lied to our poster. He played on our posters ignorance.) But
why won't Nevada judges acknowledge this fact? A look at the elected
judge's campaign donor list will explain the whole thing to you.

Bob Nercesian is a lawyer who is not a lackey. He took the case of a
professional blackjack player who was detained at Ramada/Laughlin for
refusing to show his I.D. They sued and lost. They appealed and lost
all the way up the line.

So Nercessian raised the casino industry all in. He took them to
Federal Court. The Ninth Circuit. If he lost there I'm sure he was
headed to the U.S. Supreme Court. But the Ninth Circuit judges, known
for their extreme liberalism, are not lackeys for the Nevada casino
industry. They quickly shot back that while you may ask another
citizen for I.D., if they are not breaking any laws, they have the
right to refuse and you have no recourse.

We can all thank Bob Nercesian for establishing this. We can also
thank him for helping to put to an end the abuse that has gone on here
for years. Casinos got away with detaining people for little or no
reason for a long time.

In his suit Nercesian used the word "kidnapping" over and over again.
The casino industry's lackey lawyers scoffed at the idea. "Hah,
kidnapping? HA, HA, HA, HEE, HEE, HEE. C'mon give me a break!!!." But
the Ninth Circut didn't give them a break. They got told "if you don't
want to be charged with kidnapping then don't kidnap anyone."

As for our posters problem at the Riviera he certainly had the right to
refuse to show I.D. When you give a Las Vegas security guard your I.D.
it's about 99% that he will run a warrant check with metro. And if he
is going to remove you from the property(it's about 99% that he will)
while reading you the "trespass act", He will use your I.D. to document
that you were trespassed. That way if you get caught on the property
again they have evidence to charge you.

I know lots of guys who have been pitched from casinos. I've been
pitched from a few myself. One of the tactics some have used to try to
regain entry is to tell the guard to "check with the slot club, I've
lost tens of thousands here." The guards response is usually "We don't
have access to that information, it's confidential."

I have a friend in which a security guard at the Fremont had a hard on
for. The guard disapeared though. So I ran into my friend one time in
downtown Las Vegas. He was on his way to find his wife at the
California Club and I walked with him. Just a few minutes inside the
door, my friend was making laps around the machines looking for his
wife, I hear this:

"Excuse me, sir, may I see your Identification?"

I turn around to see my buddie's Fremont security guard. He was now
working at the California Club. I look over to see my friend is jacked
up by two security guards. Now, I instantly know that the jig is up!!
I'm getting the "guilt by association" treatment. I'm going to be 86'd
from the California Club. And no amount of talking will get me back
in. I can talk until I'm blue in the face but I know the odds once
someone is asked for I.D.--99 to 1. But there is one thing I can do. I
will not give them the satisfaction of using my I.D. to document me for
future reference.

"Why do you want to see my I.D." I ask.
"Sir, may I see your I.D?, he asked again.
"What for?"
"May I see your I.D?"
"What for?"
"So you are not going to show me your identification?"
"So you are not going to tell me why you want to see it?"
"Perhaps we'll have to detain you."
"Put your hands on me and I'll charge you with kidnapping."
He smiled at me.
"Kidnapping is a federal offense", I say.
The smile left his face.

I yell over at my buddy "C'mon, let's go. I can't stand the smell in
here." So we head for the door with all the guards following close
behind. When we get outside I say to my buddy:

"C'mon, let's go this way." I head across the street towards the
Horseshoe parking garage.

"No, let's go over to the Vegas Club", my buddy says.
"Not right now", I say. "Follow me, it's important."
"Why?" he asked.
"Take a look back, their still standing there."
"So, what?" my buddy says.
"So, if we walk into the Vegas Club or the Horseshoe they're going to
call over and tell them a couple of bad characters just entered their
casino," I say. "Then we'll be in the same fix as the California.
So we're gonna head down past the parking garage and take a left like
we're going to the CAT station."

When we get to the corner I turn around. The guards are still standing
there. I can't resist. I flip them the bird as I round the
corner.

Credit hustling(Silver Mining, Buffalo Hunting, Seagulling) is an
occupation in Las Vegas. It's a meager living at best but somw people
still do it. When you get caught most casinos just run you off the
property. But the Riviera will send you to jail. All the smart
hustlers stay away from the place.

With our poster walking through the casino checking payscales, he
probably got mistook for a credit hustler. That's probably what the
guard thought but he wound up with a legitimate citizen who wanted
answers as to why he was being jacked up for I.D. Now the supervisor
has a problem on his hands. He doen't want to divulge why and the
citizen keeps asking.

So what is the easiest way to get rid of the problem? 86 the citizen.
That ends the problem on the spot-- at least in the mind of the
supervisor. The right to refuse service goes all the way back to
1600's English law. A man's home is his castle--and, by extension, so
is his business.

Sharp security will not give you a reason. They'll just say "We don't
want your business."

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "hockeystl" <vegasstl@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, bjaygold@ wrote:
>
>
> You have the right to refuse to show your ID in a casino. They have
the
> right to 86 you.

Agreed. I strongly suggest all players read the following book:
http://tinyurl.com/28w9lr

I agree.

The question here is not so much who has what rights, but rather, what
result you prefer.

Although I've felt offended when asked for I.D. by burly security guards in
at least one nameless casino (rhymes with "Pasino Poyale"), there is another
side to this.
When security gets a complaint about a patron -- threats, violence, theft,
weapons, etc. -- and the incident was not witnessed by an employee, their
first priority is to ascertain the identity of the alleged perp. He may
have a record, or been previously trespassed. As one casino security head
once reminded me, absolutely anyone can walk into a casino.

TC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

On 1/6/08, bjaygold@aol.com <bjaygold@aol.com> wrote:

You have the right to refuse to show your ID in a casino. They have the
right to 86 you. Is the former worth the latter?