Again -- To me "FULL PAY" is any game that pays over 100% in the Long Run.
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Treasure Island vp question/Full Pay
What if a game does not have *any* paytable which pays over 100%?
Does that mean (to you) that none of the paytables for that particular
game is "full pay?"
···
On 11/7/07, codonn2478@aol.com <codonn2478@aol.com> wrote:
Again -- To me "FULL PAY" is any game that pays over 100% in the Long Run.
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Plenty of casino's in Vegas and AC don't have a single game over 100% yet have full pay machines. You are getting the term confused with Positive machines.
9/6/4000 Jacks = Full pay
9/6/5000 Jacks = Super full pay
9/6 DDB = full pay DDB
10/6 DDB = super full pay DDB
10/7/250 DB = full pay DB
10/7/400 DB = Super full pay DB/VIP Double bonus
Its a great expression , coined by one of the greatest VP players of all time - The late great Lenny Fromme. Lets show some respect for his legacy, and try not to change the definition of full pay - beat the casino with advantage play instead !
···
What if a game does not have *any* paytable which pays over 100%?
Does that mean (to you) that none of the paytables for that particular
game is "full pay?"
If VP nomenclature is to be useful, everyone must agree, so that we all know what is being
said. The staus of things right now is not good. Unfortunately, iit would take a monumental
effort to bring about more logic to the situation.
..... bl
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, codonn2478@... wrote:
Again -- To me "FULL PAY" is any game that pays over 100% in the Long Run.
IMO, this is not that complicated. The VP nomenclature that I
employ, and to which I believe most board members subscribe, would
be as follows:
Full Pay: The best pay schedule that is commonly available in many
casinos (such as 9/6 JOB or 8/5 BP).
Super Full Pay: The very best pay schedule available anywhere (such
as 10/6/50 DDB or the now non-existent 9/6/90, 9/7 or 10/6 JOB).
Optimum/Positive/Advantage: The pay schedules (such as FPDW,
FPKBJW or 10/7 DB) that result in 100% or more payback, over the
long term, while playing full coin and employing perfect strategy.
~Babe~
···
=====================================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@...> wrote:
If VP nomenclature is to be useful, everyone must agree, so that we
all know what is being said. The staus of things right now is not
good. Unfortunately, iit would take a monumental effort to bring
about more logic to the situation.
..... bl
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, codonn2478@ wrote:
Again -- To me "FULL PAY" is any game that pays over 100% in the
Long Run.
Perhaps, one of the best strategies is to eliminate completely the "descriptive" terms and
let the EV and the COMPLETE pay table itself, with perhaps the variance, defining a
particular game. Such terms as "NSUD", "full pay", "FPDW" become superfluous.
Of course, we still need the terms JOB, Bonus, DW, etc. but the "descriptors" are not
needed.
Juts one opinon out of many, I am sure ...
..... b
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jackessiebabe" <jackessiebabe@...> wrote:
IMO, this is not that complicated.
~Babe~
=====================================================
In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "bornloser1537" <bornloser1537@> wrote:If VP nomenclature is to be useful, everyone must agree, so that we
all know what is being said. The staus of things right now is not
good. Unfortunately, iit would take a monumental effort to bring
about more logic to the situation.
..... bl
Babe,
As they say, "the devil's in the details". I appreciate your thoughtful answer, but did you notice that your definition of "Optimum/Positive/Advantage Play" contains "FPDW", which stands for "Full Pay Deuces Wild" and FPKBJW? Hence the conflict.
The problem I have with your "Full Pay" definition, which closely matches the vpFREE FAQ, is that it's a moving target. What's "commonly available" changes from year to year, and I don't think we want to be changing the designation of which version is "Full Pay" from year to year. I think it's best to avoid such terms and just refer to the paytable or portion thereof, e.g. 9/6 JoB.
FPDW is so engrained that it will probably always be referred to that way. But nobody says "FPJoB"; everybody says "9/6 Jacks", "6/9 Jacks", or on vpFREE "9/6 JoB". Same with DDB; I don't think I ever heard of it as "FPDDB", but rather 9/6 DDB or 10/6 DDB. Until this thread, I hadn't heard the term "Super Full Pay" being used at all. Again, people generally refer explicitly to the part of the paytable that's different from the standard game.
To make it easier to differentiate one game from another, it's best if we give a name to each paytable variant. We don't have to name *every* variant, just one "base" game for each. I discussed this in a Deuces Wild post a couple months back. For example, Deuces Wild is made up of several different flavors with quite distinct paytable variations. We already have names for most of the other variants of DW, e.g. TDW, DBDW, etc. on the vpFREE paytables.
However, the base NSU paytable is quite different from FPDW, and they are both currently lumped together under "Deuces Wild". The first part of the paytable is generally speaking what groups games into a family with similar strategies. If we designate NSU not only as a specific game but the base game of a family of related DW paytables that begin with (1-2-3-4-4), which is something I lobbied for in my earlier post, then we can say "15/9 NSU" instead of something like "Illinois/Airport Deuces", and it quickly tells you that the rest of the paytable is the same as the base game (NSU), as opposed to FPDW (1-2-2-3-5).
JD
···
jackessiebabe <jackessiebabe@yahoo.com> wrote:
IMO, this is not that complicated. The VP nomenclature that I
employ, and to which I believe most board members subscribe, would
be as follows:
Full Pay: The best pay schedule that is commonly available in many
casinos (such as 9/6 JOB or 8/5 BP).
Super Full Pay: The very best pay schedule available anywhere (such
as 10/6/50 DDB or the now non-existent 9/6/90, 9/7 or 10/6 JOB).
Optimum/Positive/Advantage: The pay schedules (such as FPDW,
FPKBJW or 10/7 DB) that result in 100% or more payback, over the
long term, while playing full coin and employing perfect strategy.
~Babe~
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Hi John,
I also appreciate your very thoughtful reply. Furthermore, I agree
with you. I think that you make a valid point when you suggest
dropping the "full play" designation from the optimum games.
After reading your post, I would classify an optimum deuce game as
one that paid 25 coins for 4OAK, 75 coins for 5OAK and 125 coins for
a WRF. I would classify an optimum Joker game as one that paid
100 coins for 4OAK, 35 coins for a FH and 25 coins for a FL.
I do think that including those 3 winning hands for each game is
sufficient as those are the pays most frequently "adjusted" when the
casino suits decide to short the games.
Thanks for your good suggestion!
~Babe~
···
=================================================
-In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, John Douglass <john.douglass@...> wrote:
Babe,
As they say, "the devil's in the details". I appreciate your
thoughtful answer, but did you notice that your definition
of "Optimum/Positive/Advantage Play" contains "FPDW", which stands
for "Full Pay Deuces Wild" and FPKBJW? Hence the conflict.
The problem I have with your "Full Pay" definition, which closely
matches the vpFREE FAQ, is that it's a moving target.
What's "commonly available" changes from year to year, and I don't
think we want to be changing the designation of which version
is "Full Pay" from year to year. I think it's best to avoid such
terms and just refer to the paytable or portion thereof, e.g. 9/6
JoB.................................