vpFREE2 Forums

Treasure Island vp question/Full Pay

I think this is the best solution. There is one
insurmountable problem that I see.

The manufacturers keep coming up with new pay
schedules to fool the unwary. For example I have seen
bonus poker that pays 1 coin on 2 pair, and deuces
wild that look like NSUD until you spot that the wild
Royal has been shorted to 20 coins, or Jokers wild
that are Aces or better. The list of strange new
paytables keeps getting longer and longer.

I was tempted to buy Jean Scotts new book on pay
schedules until I realized that it was not nearly
comprehensive enough to be worth my while. The ideal
book would have many more entries and would issue
supplements on a quarterly basis by subscription.

Jean: Feel free to use this idea.

It has almost gotten to the point where you have to
quote the entire paytable to be sure that you are
passing on correct information.

For the newbies it must be very difficult to spot a
good machine..

Regards
A.P.

···

--- John Douglass <john.douglass@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm in favor of discontinuing use of the term 'full
pay'. It's not used consistanly. For example, we say
FPDW, but 10/7 DB, not FPDB. And did everyone here
know 9/6 DDB was FP, not 10/6?

I think that we are already there. The only way that I am SURE of what I am playing is to
examine the ENTIRE paytable before I insert any money (or slot card).

(DISCLAIMER) Again, as usual, this is just my opinion, and what I have chosen to do.

.... bl

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Albert Pearson <ehpee@...> wrote:

It has almost gotten to the point where you have to
quote the entire paytable to be sure that you are
passing on correct information.

A.P. wrote: <<I was tempted to buy Jean Scotts new book on pay
schedules until I realized that it was not nearly
comprehensive enough to be worth my while. The ideal
book would have many more entries and would issue
supplements on a quarterly basis by subscription. >>

There are almost 200 paytables in "The Frugal VP Scouting Guide." No, that doesn't include every single paytable you might find in a casino, but most people will find it very useful. In fact, I have as many skilled players telling me they wouldn't be without it as newbie or just casual players. (In fact, I carry and consult it frequently myself - I don't have all this information in my head!)

When I decided to do this guide, I consulted with many players, including 5-Card, who has a very extensive paytable list on his Web site and was very helpful. We discussed at length which paytables were the most common, which were no longer available, etc. Viktor and I then decided that we needed to keep the guide small enough so that it would be easy to carry into and consult in a casino. So we decided to list a range of paytables within each basic game, from the best you might find to the worse. For example, we put 9 different paytable for Jacks or Better. We listed 9 under Deuces Wild, plus 3 for Double Deuces, 3 for Triple Pay Deuces, and 4 for Loose Deuces.

Most of the new paytables that are introduced these days are very low-paying, but you can get a rough idea of their EV by finding the one in the Guide that is the closest to the new one and seeing what parts have been adjusted up or down.

Some people might ask why we would put in a schedule with an EV of 86.31%, which we did in the Bonus Poker chart. This Guide will be as valuable for keeping you from choosing bad schedules as for helping you choose good ones. And it will help you avoid some "tricks" that the casino might play on you. In the 86.31% schedule, we have shown in red that your pay on two pair is only a return of your bet, rather than 2 coins as is usual on Bonus Poker. Throughout the charts you will find marked in red the danger areas of change you might miss,plus we have used yellow highlighting to show where the usual changes come, like on the full house and flush lines of the JoB chart.

Some players may use this guide most for specialized information it contains:

1. The return for every Multi-Strike or Super Times Pay schedule you will presently find in an IGT machine.

2. The progressive break-even point for every schedule (almost 200) we list (if it ever comes with a progressive) - for both quarter and dollar machines.

3. The general volatility rating of each game.

That is a good idea, A.P., to provide some way to update the Guide in the future. We will think about this. Perhaps eventually we might put updates online. But for right now, I think the Guide provides most of the help that VP students will need.

···

________________
Jean $�ott
The new " FRUGAL VIDEO POKER
SCOUTING GUIDE" and other frugal
products are available at my Web site,
http://queenofcomps.com/.

John Douglass wrote:

> I'm in favor of discontinuing use of the term 'full
> pay'. It's not used consistanly

Albert Pearson wrote:

I think this is the best solution. There is one
insurmountable problem that I see.

The manufacturers keep coming up with new pay
schedules to fool the unwary. For example I have seen
bonus poker that pays 1 coin on 2 pair, and deuces
wild that look like NSUD until you spot that the wild
Royal has been shorted to 20 coins ... The list of strange new
paytables keeps getting longer and longer.

I was tempted to buy Jean Scotts new book on pay
schedules until I realized that it was not nearly
comprehensive enough to be worth my while. The ideal
book would have many more entries and would issue
supplements on a quarterly basis by subscription.

Jean: Feel free to use this idea.

It has almost gotten to the point where you have to
quote the entire paytable to be sure that you are
passing on correct information.

For the newbies it must be very difficult to spot a
good machine..

You can count me among those who holds "full pay" in disfavor. It's
ambiguous and some confuse the term with "positive" (vs. strongest
generally available).

···

------

Concerning Jean's book, the Frugal VP Scouting Guide, it should be
understood that there are practical limitations to any publication. A
book with all possible paytable permutations would likely become
unwieldy -- her booklet was intended to be pocket friendly. I doubt
there would be serious interest in subscription updates. (In 20/20
hindsight, I think she might consider a page for addition of updates
on one's own.)

In a great many cases her book can reasonably assist with values for
paytables not explicitly detailed. Take your "20/16/10" NSUD variant:
20/16/10 isn't listed, but the standard NSUD 25/16/10 is as well as a
listing for 20/12/10. One might reason that 20/16/10 falls pretty
close to the midpoint of the other two.

------

For ER, averaging Jean's listed returns gets you to 98.6-98.7 ER vs.
an actual 98.8 for 20/16/10. If you don't have actual ER in hand, you
likely don't have perfect strategy in hand either and 98.7 is a strong
working estimate on the fly of true ER when you give play a go.

As far as Progressive B/E point, going with the average listed value
for the paytables noted will give you a set point equal to 100.1% ...
again, not far off and probably on the money when adjusted for likely
play error in absence of a completely refined strategy.

Considering alternate resources, her book sizes up pretty well as a
player tool for those interested in one of this sort.

- Harry

I keep a copy of 5 Card's 1 page progressive list in my gambling
wallet, which often proves useful in dealing with unusual paytables/
progressives.
http://videopoker.fws1.com/Condensed-prog.htm

David

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

Considering alternate resources, her book sizes up pretty well as a
player tool for those interested in one of this sort.

- Harry

For example ...
another vpFREE member posted a query wondering what
the payback was for a number of new Pick-Em
variations. I have seen these machines at Casino Rama
and have no way of analyzing or determining what the
payback is on them. Then there are the Tower Poker
machines that I have seen at Sams Town, who knows what
the payback is for them.

I usually assume that any new machines or variations
on old machines have paytables that will suck your
money up in quick fashion.

The industry is quick to pop in new variations, the
only way that players can keep up is with information
that is updated on a frequent basis. One off books
become more useless as time rolls on.

···

--- Jean Scott <queenofcomps@cox.net> wrote:

That is a good idea, A.P., to provide some way to
update the Guide in the
future. We will think about this. Perhaps
eventually we might put updates
online. But for right now, I think the Guide
provides most of the help that
VP students will need.

Regards

A.P.

A.P. wrote: <<I was tempted to buy Jean Scotts new book on pay
schedules until I realized that it was not nearly
comprehensive enough to be worth my while. The ideal
book would have many more entries and would issue
supplements on a quarterly basis by subscription. >>

     As an advantage player living in Las Vegas and playing almost every day, I too thought, "why would I need the Frugal VP Scouting Guide"?
Much to my surprise I find this book to be very valuable.
   Consider the following scenario. In a recent promotion a casino, ( one day each week) was offering $5 in same day free play for every 200 points played up to a maximum of $25. This casino had a small amount of 10 cent full pay deuces and 25 cents 10/7 double bonus games plus a tons of "garbage" pay games. Three problems exist with this promotion, 1. the full pay deuces and 10/7 double bonus games required $400 coin in to achieve 200 points ( instead of $200 coin in), 2. with only one day a week the possibility of being shut out from the full pay machines was very high, 3. If you got a deuces machine it would take 5 hours to earn $25 in free play, and if you got the 10/7 machine it would take 2 hours to earn the $ 25 in free play and you give up about .6% in total return. Now the Scouting Guide comes into play. I quickly check out all the remaining games to find the best of the worst games. What was discovered was 8/6 jacks or better 25 cent triple play. This game at 98.63% became the "back up game" or primary game to play. The promotion added 2.5% to this game and the $25 Free play could be achieved in 1 hour.
    Another feature I like about the Scouting guide is the information on what is added to the game with Multi Strike and Super Times pay, plus quickly finding the progressive "break evens" is handy information.

Randi.d