vpFREE2 Forums

To Cogno: What is costing Harrahs money

#1

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even with
perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100% perfectly! Video Poker
players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to your casinos.
These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take away any sort
of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not only do you
lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and relatives who play
slots.

The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends, relatives,
co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the airport, bus, and
elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots, BJ, pai gow
poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know how - but I
also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players are not Bob
Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great precision. Most VP
players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing more and are
overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As ordinary people,
they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are knowledgeable about
VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic VP, those
knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also where they play
slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play (which is
at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play at much worse
games!

You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending money in your
restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it. Put in
some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are decent such
as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame and
multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters to $1 - people tend
to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers ruin". Put Keno
and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as well. EVen
"good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes, and switch off
to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players will sit on
these machines.

Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good" machines. This
prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

2. Don't market to locals.

Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels - yes - I play
VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at Harrah's
properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me promotions for Las
Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play (or lose!).
Weird. They would rather market to people living across the country than to
someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot tournaments at
Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

3. Have Overly tight slots.

I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the point at
which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people (tourists)
complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of consistent complaint
about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but sometimes win.
People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't - they go
elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes, overall I am
a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there now instead
of Harrah's.

4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you back. It is
annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to go to their
boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the worst I've
seen.

5. Don't provide RFB.

If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room, Food,
Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to a combination of
playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB level. The
cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers mailed to me
for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at Venetian and other
places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your policies
annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those players, plus their
friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the other
casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise and pound
foolish!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Excellent post Miss Craps, and I can't believe how much crap you got
for simply recommending a decent slot play a few days ago.

The wife and I like to think of ourselves as serious VPer's. We
practice at home with strategy cards (VPSM), use a trainer (from
Masque publishing), and stick to the FP machines. But we're both
suckers for a little dollar double diamond, and of course, the
quarter wheelo. Keno, on the other hand, is my personal foible.
Can't resist dropping a few bucks with crayon in hand (no machine
experience).

For us, Vegas has always been a kaleidoscope of debauchery, and
wethinks (could be word?) Harrah's may, hopefully, be shooting itself
in the foot.

Royals with cheese for all my fellow VPFree'ers.

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even

with

perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100%

perfectly! Video Poker

players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to your

casinos.

These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take

away any sort

of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not only

do you

lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and relatives

who play

slots.

The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends,

relatives,

co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the

airport, bus, and

elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots,

BJ, pai gow

poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know how -

  but I

also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players

are not Bob

Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great

precision. Most VP

players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing

more and are

overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As

ordinary people,

they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are

knowledgeable about

VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic VP,

those

knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also

where they play

slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play

(which is

at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play at

much worse

games!

You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending

money in your

restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it.

Put in

some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are

decent such

as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame

and

multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters to

$1 - people tend

to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers ruin".

Put Keno

and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as

well. EVen

"good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes,

and switch off

to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players will

sit on

these machines.

Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good"

machines. This

prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

2. Don't market to locals.

Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels -

yes - I play

VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at

Harrah's

properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me

promotions for Las

Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play

(or lose!).

Weird. They would rather market to people living across the

country than to

someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot

tournaments at

Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

3. Have Overly tight slots.

I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the

point at

which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people

(tourists)

complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of

consistent complaint

about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but

sometimes win.

People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't -

they go

elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes,

overall I am

a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there

now instead

of Harrah's.

4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you back.

It is

annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to

go to their

boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the

worst I've

seen.

5. Don't provide RFB.

If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room,

Food,

Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to a

combination of

playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB

level. The

cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers

mailed to me

for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at Venetian

and other

places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your

policies

annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those

players, plus their

friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the

other

casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise

and pound

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

foolish!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

Would that they were!

But, do they really give a rat's a$$ about those of us who are "in the know". I doubt it.

And they really don't have to. Just look around at all the "dummies" playing the "bad
tables" and not even knowing it.

The "squeeze" has been on for several years now, as "we" become smarter. The pay tables
get worse but the "money makers" for the casino still come, bad tables or not.

The sad thing is that most of those players don't know and don't care.

.....bl

P.S. <smile> Now, how is that for being a "crepe hanger"?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "RaisingA" <raisinga@...> wrote:

Harrah's may, hopefully, be shooting itself in the foot.

#4

misscraps. wrote:

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money ...

Very good and informed summary, mc. However, I'll note the factor
that I think is strongest in working against players who desire strong
games:

If you take away any sort of half-decent VP, then not only do you
lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and relatives
who play slots.

It would be ideal if with the elimination of strong games a noticable
void of players on the floor was inescapable. However, the players
from whom the casino draws the greatest profit on the favorable games
are also those who willingly will play lesser ER games if the best
ones are removed.

I lost any illusion of a prevalence of knowledgable players making
smart choices when Suncoast demolished it's strongest inventory and,
by most accounts, continues to profitably thrive (perhaps with some
formerly marginally profitable players absent).

···

-------

One other comment that is targeted to no one person -- there's a bit
of an inconguity in players who maintain that they play at an
advantage over the casino (or, at minimum, claim they get more in
return than their expected loss) complaining when a casino makes
changes that are unfavorable in that player's eyes.

In many respects, I think the best move is simply to take one's play
elsewhere without fuss (just a courtesy note to management expressing
why you've quit playing). Not that this reflects my own behavior ;

- Harry

#5

You're kidding about "how much crap [she] got..." right? There were 4
replies to her post:

#1 compared the options of 98% slots/vp to choosing between being
bitten by a black widow or stung by a scorpion. I suppose this could
be considered giving her crap, but it was done in a respectful manner
IMO. I think it would be rather thin-skinned to take this as an attack.

#2 was my post talking about how the sign likely does not mean every
game in the bank is 98%. I most certainly did not give her any crap.

#3 asked why 98% slots were better than 98% VP. Definitely no crap
given here. I replied to clear up the reasoning misscraps was using
in her suggestion.

#4 was similar to my #2 above -- asking a question to clear up the
exact nature of the sign/bank.

If you think this was a negative thread, I shudder to think what you
will think the next time this group gets "interesting."

Ken

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "RaisingA" <raisinga@...> wrote:

Excellent post Miss Craps, and I can't believe how much crap you got
for simply recommending a decent slot play a few days ago.

#6

Could not have said it better.Great post Linda.
I've spent the last 3 days at Caesars. The room i got is fantastic.Maybe because the way i talked to the check-in person. Mentioned i'd take care of him if i hit a big one. That's the ONLY thing that was good about Caesars.
I had a nightmare trying to resolve a ticket problem to the Comedy Festival.Took 3 hours.
Promotion and event reps where never available or incompetent. They made reservation errors and knew very little about the Comedy Festival.
The wait to talk to them was unbelievable.
I, also, like to play slots,but the selection was terrible. Very few Mega Progressives.
Half- decent vp selection is non existent.
Seussman

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: misscraps@aol.com
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:01 AM
  Subject: [vpFREE] To Cogno: What is costing Harrahs money

  Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

  1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

  Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even with
  perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100% perfectly! Video Poker
  players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to your casinos.
  These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take away any sort
  of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not only do you
  lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and relatives who play
  slots.

  The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends, relatives,
  co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the airport, bus, and
  elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

  Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots, BJ, pai gow
  poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know how - but I
  also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players are not Bob
  Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great precision. Most VP
  players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing more and are
  overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As ordinary people,
  they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are knowledgeable about
  VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic VP, those
  knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also where they play
  slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play (which is
  at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play at much worse
  games!

  You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending money in your
  restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

  If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it. Put in
  some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are decent such
  as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame and
  multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters to $1 - people tend
  to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers ruin". Put Keno
  and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as well. EVen
  "good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes, and switch off
  to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players will sit on
  these machines.

  Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good" machines. This
  prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

  2. Don't market to locals.

  Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels - yes - I play
  VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at Harrah's
  properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me promotions for Las
  Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play (or lose!).
  Weird. They would rather market to people living across the country than to
  someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot tournaments at
  Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

  3. Have Overly tight slots.

  I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the point at
  which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people (tourists)
  complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of consistent complaint
  about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but sometimes win.
  People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't - they go
  elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes, overall I am
  a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there now instead
  of Harrah's.

  4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

  It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you back. It is
  annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to go to their
  boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the worst I've
  seen.

  5. Don't provide RFB.

  If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room, Food,
  Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to a combination of
  playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB level. The
  cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers mailed to me
  for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at Venetian and other
  places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

  The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your policies
  annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those players, plus their
  friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the other
  casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

  Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise and pound
  foolish!

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

I'm sorry. I guess I just don't get it.

Most casinos are owned by corporations. Corporations have
stockholders who have invested in the casino because they belive that
casino management will operate a business that generates a profit.
(It's all about the profit.)

My bride and I will arrive in LV on Saturday morning. Have we
practiced video poker, read posts from three Yahoo goups, studied
lasvegastripreport.com, and read every other piece of relevant
information that we could to try to have as much fun as we can while
we are in town? You bet your bippy we have.

The landscape is changing. (Always has, always will.)

Remember when table games were the only game in town?

We got invited to the Flamingo Hilton last year (prior to HET) for no
discernable reason. The FH already had devistated their playble
machines for the most part. My bride plays nickle BJ almost
exclusively. Late in the day, she cannot play BJ as she is unwilling
to bet at a higher table minimum. I play all types of game with the
lowest possible casino edge that are available. Perhaps irrationally,
I avoid VP that can cost me more than $5 per hand.

Later in the day and evening, I like to play bartop VP at the quarter
level. I can give the casino some action and have seveal cocktails
with a relatively low ROR. Sitting at bartop VP machines, I had my
share of cocktails on marginally playable VP and was constantly
approached by working girls. Some of them had familiar relationships
with the bartenders. I was shocked that a Strip casino would allow
that relationship to exist.

But for me, what was more enlightening, was the fact that the crowd
that constantly passed by on the strip, mostly twenty and
early-thirtysomethings kept walking up to the bar and purchasing
(paying cash money for) $8, $10, and $15 dollar beers and "souvenir"
drinks that they headed back out to the strip with, as they continued
their pilgrimages up or down the strip.

Guess what? The off-strip properties do not get that kind of walk-up
traffic. When the tourist-popular casinos are buying their alcoholic
beverages at cents on the dollar, and selling them, not giving them
away, like they do for those of us who play their games and risk our
bankrolls, why should they care whether they lose an "advantage" player?

Personally, I have attended Dancer seminars, I licensed WinPoker, I
have practiced many different games to try to make my play as
error-free as possible, but I am a little aggravated about some of the
ways the "system" is taken of advantage of.

I am totally in favor of maximizing the return of every game that can
be played. When I realize how totally out of my league I am, in terms
of worrying about the number of entries that I earn in a drawing
relative to the number of tickets in the drum, or how I can hire
someone to play bingo for free and split the proceeds from earned free
cards, or even profit from the sale of guides to help all of us
clueless people, all I want is a level playing field.

As a tourist, I want most of my rooms and meals comped, based on the
level of my play.

Because of my strip experiences, my bride and I stay and play at
off-strip properties. When a trip to Vegas starts costing us more
than airfare and a rental car, we'll go to another venue that will
reward us for our play or make us feel like we're getting a bargain of
one form or another.

Thank you for your time.

Tom

#8

Shocked! Shocked, I tell you....

Chandler

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com]On Behalf Of
anyedgeworks
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:31 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] What is costing Harrahs money?

Sitting at bartop VP machines, I had my
share of cocktails on marginally playable VP and was constantly
approached by working girls. Some of them had familiar relationships
with the bartenders. I was shocked that a Strip casino would allow
that relationship to exist.

#9

You're right. HET will soon go our of business.
Their ability to litterally buy up 1/2 the strip
is because they're such awful business people. Heck
the fact that they could buy out CP -- who offered
these very games you covet -- was a fluke. When
will they see the light and start doing the things
you note below. Whoa onto them and their poor
shareholders. When I go into their cavernous and
empty casinos I nearly cry.

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even

with

perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100%

perfectly! Video Poker

players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to

your casinos.

These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take

away any sort

of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not

only do you

lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and

relatives who play

slots.

The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends,

relatives,

co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the

airport, bus, and

elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots,

BJ, pai gow

poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know

how - but I

also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players

are not Bob

Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great

precision. Most VP

players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing

more and are

overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As

ordinary people,

they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are

knowledgeable about

VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic

VP, those

knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also

where they play

slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play

(which is

at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play

at much worse

games!

You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending

money in your

restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it.

Put in

some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are

decent such

as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame

and

multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters

to $1 - people tend

to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers

ruin". Put Keno

and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as

well. EVen

"good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes,

and switch off

to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players

will sit on

these machines.

Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good"

machines. This

prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

2. Don't market to locals.

Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels -

yes - I play

VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at

Harrah's

properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me

promotions for Las

Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play

(or lose!).

Weird. They would rather market to people living across the

country than to

someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot

tournaments at

Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

3. Have Overly tight slots.

I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the

point at

which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people

(tourists)

complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of

consistent complaint

about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but

sometimes win.

People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't -

they go

elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes,

overall I am

a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there

now instead

of Harrah's.

4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you

back. It is

annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to

go to their

boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the

worst I've

seen.

5. Don't provide RFB.

If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room,

Food,

Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to

a combination of

playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB

level. The

cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers

mailed to me

for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at

Venetian and other

places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your

policies

annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those

players, plus their

friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the

other

casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise

and pound

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

foolish!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

I'll ask again - is there someone at Harrahs we can send these types
of messages to (other than Cogno!)? I don't know enough about who
makes these decisions within the Evil Empire to know where to direct
my feedback.

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even

with

perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100%

perfectly! Video Poker

players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to your

casinos.

These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take

away any sort

of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not only

do you

lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and relatives

who play

slots.

The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends,

relatives,

co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the

airport, bus, and

elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots,

BJ, pai gow

poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know how -

  but I

also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players

are not Bob

Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great

precision. Most VP

players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing

more and are

overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As

ordinary people,

they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are

knowledgeable about

VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic VP,

those

knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also

where they play

slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play

(which is

at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play at

much worse

games!

You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending

money in your

restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it.

Put in

some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are

decent such

as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame

and

multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters to

$1 - people tend

to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers ruin".

Put Keno

and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as

well. EVen

"good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes,

and switch off

to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players will

sit on

these machines.

Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good"

machines. This

prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

2. Don't market to locals.

Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels -

yes - I play

VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at

Harrah's

properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me

promotions for Las

Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play

(or lose!).

Weird. They would rather market to people living across the

country than to

someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot

tournaments at

Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

3. Have Overly tight slots.

I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the

point at

which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people

(tourists)

complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of

consistent complaint

about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but

sometimes win.

People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't -

they go

elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes,

overall I am

a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there

now instead

of Harrah's.

4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you back.

It is

annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to

go to their

boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the

worst I've

seen.

5. Don't provide RFB.

If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room,

Food,

Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to a

combination of

playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB

level. The

cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers

mailed to me

for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at Venetian

and other

places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your

policies

annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those

players, plus their

friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the

other

casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise

and pound

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

foolish!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#11

Hi,

     Don't know who to contact at Harrahs Entertainment but we are
staying at Caesars starting Nov. 23 and will find out and post it.
I'm sending off a note as well. We get a pamphlet from Caesars
(quarterly I think?) and there is always a note from a Marketing
Person (could be the President) in the publication. Failing finding
a person at Caesars direct I was going to contact that person when I
receive the next edition.

      My take on it is that Harrahs/Caesars can do what they like as
it is their business/money. I'm just annoyed because we have
already made our travel arrangements (paid our money) and this is
going to be a change from the holiday experience I was expecting.
What do you think would happen if I went to a Casino Host at Caesars
(or the manager) and asked them to open up a couple of 9/6 JoB for
us for our stay? My reasoning would be that I am damaged because of
a decision they made and they could mitigate my loss by making the
games available thay we play for our stay. Would be interesting to
see there reaction???

     I agree with your action of writing a letter. I emailed our
host after our last visit and complimented her/Caesars on the
changes they had made that enhanced our experience. We really liked
the new Diamond Lounge and it was our experience that all the staff
we came in contact with were friendly and aiming to please. The
only thing we have never liked is the lousy coffee at Caesars (from
our point of view).

Good Luck, Mike

I'll ask again - is there someone at Harrahs we can send these

types

of messages to (other than Cogno!)? I don't know enough about who
makes these decisions within the Evil Empire to know where to

direct

my feedback.

>
> Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:
>
> 1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.
>
> Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100%

even

with
> perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100%
perfectly! Video Poker
> players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to

your

casinos.
> These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you

take

away any sort
> of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not

only

do you
> lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and

relatives

who play
> slots.
>
> The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends,
relatives,
> co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the
airport, bus, and
> elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.
>
> Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots,
BJ, pai gow
> poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know

how -

  but I
> also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP

players

are not Bob
> Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great
precision. Most VP
> players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing
more and are
> overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As
ordinary people,
> they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are
knowledgeable about
> VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic

VP,

those
> knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but

also

where they play
> slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP

play

(which is
> at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play

at

much worse
> games!
>
> You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending
money in your
> restaurants, shops, shows, etc!
>
> If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do

it.

Put in
> some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that

are

decent such
> as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame
and
> multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters

to

$1 - people tend
> to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers

ruin".

Put Keno
> and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as
well. EVen
> "good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games

sometimes,

and switch off
> to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players

will

sit on
> these machines.
>
> Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good"
machines. This
> prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.
>
> 2. Don't market to locals.
>
> Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels -
yes - I play
> VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at
Harrah's
> properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me
promotions for Las
> Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play
(or lose!).
> Weird. They would rather market to people living across the
country than to
> someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot
tournaments at
> Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.
>
> 3. Have Overly tight slots.
>
> I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to

the

point at
> which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people
(tourists)
> complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of
consistent complaint
> about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but
sometimes win.
> People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently

don't -

they go
> elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian --

yes,

overall I am
> a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there
now instead
> of Harrah's.
>
> 4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.
>
> It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you

back.

It is
> annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have

to

go to their
> boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the
worst I've
> seen.
>
> 5. Don't provide RFB.
>
> If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full

Room,

Food,
> Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to

a

combination of
> playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB
level. The
> cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers
mailed to me
> for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at

Venetian

and other
> places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.
>
> The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If

your

policies
> annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those
players, plus their
> friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help

the

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "larsonsm" <larsonsm@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@ wrote:
other
> casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.
>
> Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise
and pound
> foolish!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

#12

Just curious and maybe a little paranoid, but is it possible HET would
use any letters to assemble a list of advantage players who might be
excluded from using any future upgrades?

- John

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mdemens" <mdemens@...> wrote:

     I agree with your action of writing a letter. I emailed our
host after our last visit and complimented her/Caesars on the
changes they had made that enhanced our experience. We really liked
the new Diamond Lounge and it was our experience that all the staff
we came in contact with were friendly and aiming to please. The
only thing we have never liked is the lousy coffee at Caesars (from
our point of view).

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "larsonsm" <larsonsm@> wrote:
>
> I'll ask again - is there someone at Harrahs we can send these
types
> of messages to (other than Cogno!)? I don't know enough about who
> makes these decisions within the Evil Empire to know where to
direct
> my feedback.
>

#13

I just got back from Caesars, first of all there is some 9/6 left -
it is in the old high limit area. It might be only $2 and up though.
I play $5 coin and did notice that if you drop the denom some of the
paytables drop not only 9/6, but 9/7 DB is lowered to something else
as well. When I was leaving I did notice that many of the 50 play
machines that I have not played in years since they downgraded the
tables were taken out of service - either they are being removed for
non-use or maybe someone has heard your cries and is going ti
upgrade some tables on those machines.

Harrah's has an offer to get bought out,do you think they think they
have a problem? they don't give a S**t about you or the people here
because there are enough suckers willing to play penny multi line
video slots for double digit hold percentages.

The "brains" behind Harrah is a guy named Rick Mirman - Sr, VP of
Business Development, he actually designed the whole Total Rewards
program - I would address complaints to him at Corporate HQ in
Vegas. But he is about to get accelerated in a multi million dollar
option package, so he really does not give a rip because things look
fine to him.

Also posting on this site is a waste - the Harrah's people read the
Harrahs Yahoo group, but I don't think this one - you will have a
much better chance of success putting these posts on the Harrah's
group site

Here are some things that cost Harrah's money:

1. Eliminate any half-decent video poker.

Why - first- 9/6 Jacks or Better machines pay less than 100% even

with

perfect play. Most video poker players don't play 100%

perfectly! Video Poker

players bring their friends, relatives, significant others to

your casinos.

These people play slots, table games, and even keno. If you take

away any sort

of half-decent VP (like 98% paying 8/5 Bonus poker), then not

only do you

lose the video poker player - you lose their friends and

relatives who play

slots.

The VP people stop recommending your casino to friends,

relatives,

co-workers, and even to complete strangers they meet at the

airport, bus, and

elsewhere. Soon you are losing a lot of business.

Also some people who know how to play "good" VP also play slots,

BJ, pai gow

poker, racetrack, and other games. I like to play VP and know

how - but I

also play $5 "pinball" and other slot machines!! Most VP players

are not Bob

Dancer type robots who play only 100%+ games with great

precision. Most VP

players are ordinary people, trying to minimize losses - nothing

more and are

overall losers - even when playing "good" VP at times. As

ordinary people,

they play all sorts of games at times, even if they are

knowledgeable about

VP. So when a casino takes out the "decent" but not fantastic

VP, those

knowledgeable players go elsewhere -- where they play VP, but also

where they play

slots, keno, horse betting, poker, etc!!! You lose their VP play

(which is

at a very slight loss rate) and you also lose their non-VP play

at much worse

games!

You also lose the VP player and their friends who are spending

money in your

restaurants, shops, shows, etc!

If you want to protect your "bottom line" - here is how to do it.

Put in

some, but not huge amounts of VP at levels under 100% but that are

decent such

as 9/6 JB, NSU deuces, 8/5 Bonus. Make these machines multigame

and

multidenominational. If you have machines that go from quarters

to $1 - people tend

to lose and then start betting more and run into "gamblers

ruin". Put Keno

and Double Double Bonus and other games on these machines as

well. EVen

"good" players get tired of playing the same NSU games sometimes,

and switch off

to DDB, and even keno! for a change. Also some keno players

will sit on

these machines.

Alternate machines, so that you don't have a row of "good"

machines. This

prevents any sort of teams from sitting down.

2. Don't market to locals.

Harrah's Vegas policies are stupid. I play a lot of $5 Reels -

yes - I play

VP too, but I also like slot machines. I had heavy play at

Harrah's

properties and heavy losses. Yet Harrah's refuses to send me

promotions for Las

Vegas because I'm a "local." It doesn't matter how much I play

(or lose!).

Weird. They would rather market to people living across the

country than to

someone who could come every weekend. Result: I go to slot

tournaments at

Aladdin, Venetian, Luxor, etc.

3. Have Overly tight slots.

I've been a consistent loser at Harrah's Vegas "reel" slots to the

point at

which I won't play there any more. I've heard other people

(tourists)

complaining when inside Harrah's. You don't hear this sort of

consistent complaint

about slots in other strip casinos where you lose overall, but

sometimes win.

People like to win once in awhile -- if they consistently don't -

they go

elsewhere. I like to play $5 slots at Wynn and Venetian -- yes,

overall I am

a loser, but occasionally I hit a top jackpot. So I play there

now instead

of Harrah's.

4. Have bad hosts who don't know a lot.

It is annoying when you phone a host and they don't call you

back. It is

annoying when they consistently can't answer questions and have to

go to their

boss to get answers for you. Harrah's hosts generally are the

worst I've

seen.

5. Don't provide RFB.

If I play at Las Vegas Hilton or Venetian, etc. I get full Room,

Food,

Beverage plus cashback plus offers for slot tournaments - due to

a combination of

playing $1 VP and $5 slots. At Harrah's I can't come in at RFB

level. The

cashback is pitiful. Despite my 7Star level I can't get offers

mailed to me

for Vegas because I live in Vegas. Result: More play at

Venetian and other

places -- less play (right now zero play) at Harrahs Vegas.

The bottom line is that Las Vegas has a LOT of casinos. If your

policies

annoy various groups of people, you are going to lose those

players, plus their

friends and relatives. Your annoying policies will just help the

other

casinos, because there are plenty of places to go.

Sometimes "what is costing us money" decisions can be penny-wise

and pound

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, misscraps@... wrote:

foolish!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#14

"you will have a much better chance of success putting these posts
on the Harrah's group site..."

I searched yahoo groups for "harrahs" and did not find a harrah's
group site. If anyone has a link I'd appreciate it.

I just got back from Caesars, first of all there is some 9/6 left -

it is in the old high limit area. It might be only $2 and up

though.

I play $5 coin and did notice that if you drop the denom some of

the

paytables drop not only 9/6, but 9/7 DB is lowered to something

else

as well. When I was leaving I did notice that many of the 50 play
machines that I have not played in years since they downgraded the
tables were taken out of service - either they are being removed

for

non-use or maybe someone has heard your cries and is going ti
upgrade some tables on those machines.

Harrah's has an offer to get bought out,do you think they think

they

have a problem? they don't give a S**t about you or the people

here

because there are enough suckers willing to play penny multi line
video slots for double digit hold percentages.

The "brains" behind Harrah is a guy named Rick Mirman - Sr, VP of
Business Development, he actually designed the whole Total Rewards
program - I would address complaints to him at Corporate HQ in
Vegas. But he is about to get accelerated in a multi million

dollar

option package, so he really does not give a rip because things

look

fine to him.

Also posting on this site is a waste - the Harrah's people read

the

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caplatinum" <belairgold@...> wrote:

Harrahs Yahoo group, but I don't think this one - you will have a
much better chance of success putting these posts on the Harrah's
group site

#15

The searchability for yahoo groups by topic is terrible - type in
harrahscasinos one word no apostrophe - that should do it

"you will have a much better chance of success putting these posts
on the Harrah's group site..."

I searched yahoo groups for "harrahs" and did not find a harrah's
group site. If anyone has a link I'd appreciate it.

>
> I just got back from Caesars, first of all there is some 9/6

left -

> it is in the old high limit area. It might be only $2 and up
though.
> I play $5 coin and did notice that if you drop the denom some of
the
> paytables drop not only 9/6, but 9/7 DB is lowered to something
else
> as well. When I was leaving I did notice that many of the 50

play

> machines that I have not played in years since they downgraded

the

> tables were taken out of service - either they are being removed
for
> non-use or maybe someone has heard your cries and is going ti
> upgrade some tables on those machines.
>
> Harrah's has an offer to get bought out,do you think they think
they
> have a problem? they don't give a S**t about you or the people
here
> because there are enough suckers willing to play penny multi

line

> video slots for double digit hold percentages.
>
> The "brains" behind Harrah is a guy named Rick Mirman - Sr, VP

of

> Business Development, he actually designed the whole Total

Rewards

> program - I would address complaints to him at Corporate HQ in
> Vegas. But he is about to get accelerated in a multi million
dollar
> option package, so he really does not give a rip because things
look
> fine to him.
>
> Also posting on this site is a waste - the Harrah's people read
the
> Harrahs Yahoo group, but I don't think this one - you will have

a

> much better chance of success putting these posts on the

Harrah's

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jamis225" <jamis225@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caplatinum" <belairgold@> wrote:
> group site

#16

Maybe, but I don't consider myself an advantage player. I'm just an
informed gambler who wants to have some fun playing a game with a
small house edge - similar to other games they offer such as BJ &
Craps. I don't have a problem telling the casino that. I realize
they can get most people to play any game they put out there, but
I've never understood why they don't offer at least a few games in
the 99.0-99.5% range.

Steve

Just curious and maybe a little paranoid, but is it possible HET

would

use any letters to assemble a list of advantage players who might be
excluded from using any future upgrades?

- John

>
> I agree with your action of writing a letter. I emailed our
> host after our last visit and complimented her/Caesars on the
> changes they had made that enhanced our experience. We really

liked

> the new Diamond Lounge and it was our experience that all the

staff

> we came in contact with were friendly and aiming to please. The
> only thing we have never liked is the lousy coffee at Caesars

(from

> our point of view).
>
> >
> > I'll ask again - is there someone at Harrahs we can send these
> types
> > of messages to (other than Cogno!)? I don't know enough about

who

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "murphyfields" <jkludge@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "mdemens" <mdemens@> wrote:
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "larsonsm" <larsonsm@> wrote:
> > makes these decisions within the Evil Empire to know where to
> direct
> > my feedback.
> >

#17

larsonsm wrote:

I've never understood why they don't offer at least a few games in
the 99.0-99.5% range.

Because, by far, most players don't demand strong paytables. They'll
simply play something else that is considerably more profitable to the
casino.

For the greater part, the issue isn't whether a casinio can make a
profit from someone playing 9/6 JB or 9/6 DDB. It's that when an
indiscriminate player (most on the floor) plays a 99%+ game, the
casino edge that it would otherwise hold on that player suffers ...
"needlessly".

- Harry

#18

I did follow misscraps link and send a subscribe email but its wierd I
can't get it to come up!

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "caplatinum" <belairgold@...> wrote:

The searchability for yahoo groups by topic is terrible - type in
harrahscasinos one word no apostrophe - that should do it

I tried doing this and still can't find it.

#19

That may be the problem - the casino can easily measure what their
return is on a particular machine. But they can't see that removing
the machine (or downgrading the paytable) may actually cost them more
business in what an informed VP player might play in other games, with
friends and family, on food, etc.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@...> wrote:

larsonsm wrote:
> I've never understood why they don't offer at least a few games in
> the 99.0-99.5% range.

Because, by far, most players don't demand strong paytables. They'll
simply play something else that is considerably more profitable to the
casino.

For the greater part, the issue isn't whether a casinio can make a
profit from someone playing 9/6 JB or 9/6 DDB. It's that when an
indiscriminate player (most on the floor) plays a 99%+ game, the
casino edge that it would otherwise hold on that player suffers ...
"needlessly".

- Harry