vpFREE2 Forums

tipping question/WSOP

In a message dated 9/10/06 8:33:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
omnibibulous1@comcast.net writes:

···

Guess Joe didn't want to "pass the sugah." I've read that 3% was lifted off
the top of entry fees for tokes to tournament staff for the 2006 WSOP. Half
of that reserved for dealers. If that is correct, essentially everyone who
paid the $10K entry gave a $300 tip.

Chandler

***
Finding out the history of the WSOP vig would be interesting. Also
interesting would be the amount of revenue HET gets for all the sponsorship deals and
TV rights. I started keeping "Milwaukee's Best" beer in my fridge to make me a
better player.

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You'd do better to have Chris Ferguson in your fridge.

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On 9/10/06, GRAYTLEEGRAY@aol.com <GRAYTLEEGRAY@aol.com> wrote:

  I started keeping "Milwaukee's Best" beer in my fridge to make me a
better player.

Okay, I guess I have heard enough misinformation about our compensation at the WSOP. I was a poker dealer there this year. First of all, I will say I took home about $10K after taxes. For six weeks of work, that wasn't so bad. It was actually a little more than I made in my previous life as a computer programmer. But I did work more hours than most of the other dealers and I only had about 4 days off. I heard that last year, most of the dealers took home $15K or more and one actually make $35K. But last year, the dealers got to keep their own tips and weren't taxed on most of that. We had to share our tips were taxed on them just like income. For the first three weeks of the series, we shared 25 percent of our tokes with the chip runners and cage persons. Our tokes were also calculated on an hourly basis, i.e. between the time we clocked in and clocked out(plus we did get a whole $5.25 per hour salary). If you only dealt six 30-minute downs in eight hours, you were paid the same as someone who dealt 14 downs in eight hours. After some of the dealers revolted, Harrah's changed things a bit for the better. The last three weeks, we were paid by the down and we kept 90 percent of the tokes instead of 75.

Before I go on, I want to mention some other things about the first three weeks. Our hourly toke rate during that time was very low. Many of the dealers were clocking in early and wandering off. Many of the dealers would take extended breaks, go eat, and others would just go home without being told to do so. Because of this, the dealer coordinators were forced to bring in more dealers during each shift. Some dealers even complained that they weren't getting enough breaks, so they put in more break tables(a table where when the dealer pushes in, they then go on break when the hal hour is up), which also required more dealers.

Now, let me try to explain how they figured out the toke rate for the final three weeks. Here is where we got paid for the time that we actually dealt. So the people how took extra breaks or went home early were penalized, as is should be. But again some people complained about not getting enough breaks, which meant that more dealers were brought in. Also, some dealers were sent home once they reached a certain number of downs in a week. Yes, Harrah's took out a certain percentage from every tournament. For the $50,000 HORSE event, the fee for the dealers, chip runners and cage was 0.75 percent. For the $5,000 - $10,000 events, the fee was 1.5 percent. For the events less than $5,000, the fee was 2.25 percent. So, for the main event, we got $150.00 from each player, even the one who won $12,000,000.00. But we split that with about 500 other dealers and over a two week period. I also heard that not one af the players who cashed tipped anything extra. They all probably heard that we were getting so much we didn't need any more. It would have been really nice if the people who worked in the department that paid the winners with a check (which meant that they may not have had any extra cash to tip with) had mentioned that anything they could do for the dealers would be greatly appreciated. This was done every time someone won a satellite tournament. Speaking of which, all satellites added $20.00 to the tokes. Some took 3 hours and the winner tipped any where from $0 to $50.00. For the $1030.00 satellites, occasionally there was a $100.00 tip. I am not sure how the mega- and super-satellites worked but I heard that many of those winners didn't tip anything extra.

For the live cash games, the casino of course took out their share (the rake) from every pot, but we relied only on the player tips. Some of the high limit games had a built-in $15.00 toke, but most of them had a timed fee that went totally into the rake box. The high limit players almost never tipped, especially the crotchety old $75-$150 stud eight or better players. I heard at my tables, player complaining about tipping because the good dealers would have to share their tips with the bad dealers. That feeling certainly didn't help.

So, Doug, you are welcome to try your hand at dealing the series next year. First you need to pay to go to dealing school and get a dealing certificate. Then you need to be able to get through the audition process and obtain a gaming card. If the conditions are the same, once you start working, you will get to take your breaks in the lovely dealers' tent behind the pavillion. They keep the temperature in there at a cozy 45 degrees. But to get there, you need to walk from the tournament area, go outside in the over 100 degree weather, walk through a thick cloud of smoke from all the smoking dealers and then freeze in the tent. I am surprised it took me a week before I got a terrible chest cold, so I was popping claritins for the next 10 days. We were allowed to use the employee parking lot until some brilliant dealers decide to take a break in their car and smoke pot. After that we had to park in the C lot which was about a half mile walk to the tent. So we would have to walk in 105 degree temperatures, get all sweaty, and then sit through a half hour dealer meeting in the 45-degree tent. I may be exaggerating a bit about that, but not much. They did supply the tent with two coolers filled with bottled water and melted ice. After a few days, they added two fridges to store stuff, but you were lucky if anything didn't get stolen. During the last couple of weeks they brought in soda and snack machines that you had to pay for. We were allowed to eat in the employee dining room, if you were willing to make the one mile walk there. They only gave us half hour breaks, so you had to eat before or after your shift. At first we were able to eat in the poker kitchen that was set up behind the tournament (had to pay for that too) but some dealers were caught drinking on duty there.

And then there was the whole Jamie Gold thing. Apparently he stated in an ESPN interview that he would be tipping the dealers one million dollars if he won. After that there was a buzz in the room with the dealers. Of course we were all rooting for him and hoped that it would rub off on some of the other players. When he made it to the final table, there were many dealers screaming their heads off for him. Well, he won and we haven't seen any tip. We calculated that it would mean about $2,000 for each dealer.

All-in-all it was actually a great experience. Me personally, I was just happy to be working. It was exciting to be dealing to the likes of Annie Duke, Joe Hachem, etc. I am not sure I would do it again, maybe if things changed a bit, but hopefully I will have a full time job by then. Actually I think I could have made more money on the other side of the table. I saw a lot of strange plays, especially in the 2-5 no-limit games.

I know I rambled on, but hopefully some things were made a little clearer.

···

In a message dated 9/10/06 8:33:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
omnibibulous1@comcast.net writes:

> Guess Joe didn't want to "pass the sugah." I've read that 3% was lifted off
> the top of entry fees for tokes to tournament staff for the 2006 WSOP. Half
> of that reserved for dealers. If that is correct, essentially everyone who
> paid the $10K entry gave a $300 tip.
>
> Chandler
>

***
Finding out the history of the WSOP vig would be interesting. Also
interesting would be the amount of revenue HET gets for all the sponsorship deals and
TV rights. I started keeping "Milwaukee's Best" beer in my fridge to make me a
better player.

===================
In a message dated 10/09/2006 10:43:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
vegasstl@charter.net writes:

Harrahs took $5.6 MILLION out of the prize pool for expenses and dealer
tokes.

So it was a mandatory toke .. well better than last year when it was
voluntary and they got stiffed.

Karen
From Toronto

From my friend who worked at the WSOP (actually in the department that paid
the winners).

.......I think that the dealer's share of the tournament fees collected

was 0.75% of $10,000 x # of entrants ( if this number is incorrect, then it
was 1.5% of all monies collected ). So, if you won $12,000,000.00, you have
already paid $90,000 ( or $180,000 ) in dealer tips. There is another 5.25% ( or
4.5% ) in fees that also is deducted from your winnings. So, in theory, a
$12,000,000.00 winner has already paid in tournament fees and tokes 6%...so,
any additional funds? I do not know, did not hear and do not .......... <<

Karen
From Toronto

It looks like the dealers have a better deal than the players. The
dealers have a big payday whoever wins. Put my name in for the next
tournament.

Doug

nd greek wrote:

I know I rambled on, but hopefully some things were made a little
clearer.

You realize, of course, that comments here were intentionally
progressively egregious in hopes of eventually drawing out someone on
the "inside" :wink:

I'm personally pleased that you took the opportunity to vent a bit --
it was wonderfully informative. Thanks.

- Harry

<<I also heard that not one af the players who cashed tipped anything extra.

They all probably heard that we were getting so much we didn't need any
more.>>

More likely it's that Harrah's was taking so much and making so much money
that the players didn't care to give any more.

<< It would have been really nice if the people who worked in the
department that paid the winners with a check (which meant that they may not
have had any extra cash to tip with) had mentioned that anything they could
do for the dealers would be greatly appreciated. >>

The winner's form had a space for additional gratuity, did it not? I think
actually verbalizing a request for additional tip crosses the line into
unacceptable begging.

I really think the dealers are better served negotiating their compensation
with Harrah's rather than trying to guilt the players into digging deeper
into their own pockets. Frankly, the whole idea of you rooting for certain
players based on the expectation of tips makes me shudder. You are supposed
to be impartial.

Thanks for the heartfelt post and good luck.

Cogno

Oh come on, if someone promised you $2,000, wouldn't you root for him? I actually wasn't there because I was sleeping. I think I slept for 24 hours after I was done dealing.

I never saw the winner form, so I don't know what was on it.

Is it my fault that for some reason, the service industry has decided to pay their workers minimum wage and force them to make their living off the kindness of others? So, are you saying we would cheat to help a player win to get a good tip from him? Do you really think Harrah's would give their dealers a better salary, when they can get away with keeping so much of the pie already?

If they don't improve the situation for next year, the quality of the dealers will be even worse than this year. A lot of the good dealers left early on to either go back home or back to their old jobs. If they do get 12,000 people for the main event and move into a larger room with 300 tables, they are going to need more dealers anyways. I don't think they can stay in a 200 table room and add another couple of first days. I think this year you were around for nine days before getting into the money. That seems like a lot of time to be hanging around Las Vegas and you may not cash.

You don't know me, so I am a little offended if you are questioning my integrity.

···

From: "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@gmail.com>
Reply-To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [vpFREE] tipping question/WSOP( a dealer's account)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:46:25 -0700

<<I also heard that not one af the players who cashed tipped anything extra.

They all probably heard that we were getting so much we didn't need any
more.>>

More likely it's that Harrah's was taking so much and making so much money
that the players didn't care to give any more.

<< It would have been really nice if the people who worked in the
department that paid the winners with a check (which meant that they may not
have had any extra cash to tip with) had mentioned that anything they could
do for the dealers would be greatly appreciated. >>

The winner's form had a space for additional gratuity, did it not? I think
actually verbalizing a request for additional tip crosses the line into
unacceptable begging.

I really think the dealers are better served negotiating their compensation
with Harrah's rather than trying to guilt the players into digging deeper
into their own pockets. Frankly, the whole idea of you rooting for certain
players based on the expectation of tips makes me shudder. You are supposed
to be impartial.

Thanks for the heartfelt post and good luck.

Cogno

I look at this whole tipping thing on the WSOP exactly the same as I would if I was in a restaurant
with a large group of people and was subjected to a standard service charge of 15 - 20 percent.

I am giving my tip up front and unless I got some service that was truly exceptional I would not even
consider an extra tip. The dealers may have a legitimate gripe, but it is with management not with
the players.

Regards
A.P.

Albert Pearson wrote:

The dealers may have a legitimate gripe, but it is
with management not with the players.

My impression was that the poster's frustration was indeed targeted
squarely on Harrah's (90%, at minimum)

- H.

It is quite natural to root for someone that has promised you $2000,
but it is wrong for Harrah's or whoever had any control over it, to
have allowed a situation where the dealers were actively rooting for
one player to win. They should have put the kibosh on it, as soon as
they heard it.

Years ago I read an article in Slate on NASCAR Racing. The author
commented that while most drivers cheat if they could get away with
it, NASCAR not only seems to tolerate, but actively encourage it. I
don't know if I will be able to Google for it.

Imagine if one of the teams in the World Series promised that they
would pay each umpire $10000, if their team won. That wouldn't pass
the smell test. Imagine if the umpires in such a situation were
actively rooting for that team. That would be unconscionable. If they
manage to get out of the ballpark alive, they wouldn't be able to
drive their cars because all of the tires would have been slashed.

Of course the situations are not exactly identical; but no two
situations generally are.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nd greek" <ndgreek@...> wrote:

Oh come on, if someone promised you $2,000, wouldn't you root for
him? I actually wasn't there because I was sleeping.

Yeah; he also told his poker teacher / WSoP partner that they would split any winnings
50-50. He reneged and is now being sued by his partner. Harrah's kept the money he won
while the partner sued to keep it out of Gold's hands, afraid he would gamble it all away.
Harrah's finally gave Gold half of it just about a week ago and the other half is now tied up in
the courts, with both Gold and his partner suing for it. A quick look through the LVRJ
archives provides much more of the story.

Bettie
www.VPinsider.com

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nd greek" <ndgreek@...> wrote:

And then there was the whole Jamie Gold thing. Apparently he stated in an
ESPN interview that he would be tipping the dealers one million dollars if
he won. After that there was a buzz in the room with the dealers. Of
course we were all rooting for him and hoped that it would rub off on some
of the other players. When he made it to the final table, there were many
dealers screaming their heads off for him. Well, he won and we haven't seen
any tip. We calculated that it would mean about $2,000 for each dealer.

<<Oh come on, if someone promised you $2,000, wouldn't you root for him?>>

Of course. That's the problem.

<<So, are you saying we would cheat to help a player win to get a good tip
from him?>>

I doubt many would stack the deck for $2000, but there are other ways of
influencing the outcome. For instance, I have NEVER seen a dealer enforce
the "F Bomb" penalty against a known player unless demanded by other players
at the table. There are many situations where a dealer's judgment is
required, and partisan feelings cloud that judgment even if the intent is to
be impartial.

<<You don't know me, so I am a little offended if you are questioning my
integrity.>>

OK, I'm a little apologetic. But you did say you were rooting for Gold. Tell
me, which team were the officials rooting for in last week's Steelers game?

Cogno

Cogno Scienti wrote:

For instance, I have NEVER seen a dealer enforce
the "F Bomb" penalty against a known player unless demanded by other
players at the table.

OMG ... is that a reference to the same strategic tactic I recall a
particular friend of mine being fond of employing when we were in our
pre-teens?!!!

- H.

the refs always root for the steelers for some unknown reason, maybe cuz coward will spit on them if he doesnt get the calls,all of them

Cogno Scienti <cognoscienti@gmail.com> wrote: <<Oh come on, if someone promised you $2,000, wouldn't you root for him?>>

Of course. That's the problem.

<<So, are you saying we would cheat to help a player win to get a good tip
from him?>>

I doubt many would stack the deck for $2000, but there are other ways of
influencing the outcome. For instance, I have NEVER seen a dealer enforce
the "F Bomb" penalty against a known player unless demanded by other players
at the table. There are many situations where a dealer's judgment is
required, and partisan feelings cloud that judgment even if the intent is to
be impartial.

<<You don't know me, so I am a little offended if you are questioning my
integrity.>>

OK, I'm a little apologetic. But you did say you were rooting for Gold. Tell
me, which team were the officials rooting for in last week's Steelers game?

Cogno

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