vpFREE2 Forums

The Secret Behind vpFREE

#1

Hi Rob:

I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
the courtesy of a one-time response.

1. The vpFREE Video Poker Group is a free internet forum for
the discussion and exchange of information about video poker
and video poker related topics. vpFREE is dedicated to sharing,
promoting and preserving good video poker situations that can
survive and prosper in an open market environment.

2. I believe that the vpFREE rules facilitate the objectives stated
above and I also believe that the rules are appreciated and endorsed
by 99.9 % of the membership.

3. I don't agree that "Normal people are stifled on vpFREE ...".
The only people that are stifled are a handful of agitators and
a few who seem to feel that "pot, kettle, black" postings are
essential.

It's not necessary to attack or get personal in negative situations.
Disagreement can be expressed while observing the rules and it
can be done more effectively thereby.

4. vpFREE has never catered to anyone, and treats all members
as fairly, objectively and equally as possible. The Administrators
have never had any personal axes to grind.

5. An unmoderated, anything goes forum probably won't ever be
able to attract and keep the necessary membership base to operate
succesfully. Look at vp_heaven and FREEvpFREE.

5. vpFREE must be doing something right. There are nearly 6000
documented members and growing.

vpFREE Administrator

#2

Thank you for the courteous response, and although I know you won't
reply again, I'll try to make my final points with due respect below.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator
<vp_free@...> wrote:

Hi Rob:

I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
the courtesy of a one-time response.

1. The vpFREE Video Poker Group is a free internet forum for
the discussion and exchange of information about video poker
and video poker related topics. vpFREE is dedicated to sharing,
promoting and preserving good video poker situations that can
survive and prosper in an open market environment.

Accepted and agreed. However, in doing so you neglect to include the
very powerful message I bring, and one which is equally distributed
on-line to over 6000 enthusiasts as well as to the >100,000 who
might choose to become enlightened each week in Gaming Today.
There's even times when I expand my 'enlightment' and Tues. morning
is one of those times. In honor of Joanie Shapiro and for the
benefit of many who have shown remorse at Elliott's passing, I've
dedicated my GT column to Elliott's memory. You could post a direct
link to it on my site - as you do all of the others each week - if
you so desire.

2. I believe that the vpFREE rules facilitate the objectives stated
above and I also believe that the rules are appreciated and

endorsed by 99.9 % of the membership.

That I'm not so convinced about. There's way too much silence, and
too many people voice their opinions stating otherwise to me.

3. I don't agree that "Normal people are stifled on vpFREE ...".
The only people that are stifled are a handful of agitators and
a few who seem to feel that "pot, kettle, black" postings are
essential.

What I meant was there's a lot of posters who would like livlier
debate with a lot less guru self-promotion and guru-coddling, and
they're too afraid to do or say so with the moderation level in
effect. One major question I get: Just why would debating the
positives and negatives of my strategy or any other play strategies,
hurt the prime goals of vpFREE--other than for the disruptors
themselves---the gurus and a few Singer-haters--who have always
caused the majority of the problems?

It's not necessary to attack or get personal in negative

situations. Disagreement can be expressed while observing the rules
and it can be done more effectively thereby.

I agree. It is always good to point out the negatives OF a situation
and why, and that along with lively back & forth debate in my
opinion, should be allowed on vpFREE. There should be no 'taboo
topic' such as people feel there is about me or my strategies. After
all, I have probably the best winning record of anyone ever, and
I've gone on published record as willing to put a very large sum of
money as well as pay for an official Nevada Arbitrator up against
those who have any reason to dispute it. And I am the only
professional gambler in history to have ever done so. People read
these thing and it's important for them to know more other than just
from me. Why are all those who call me a liar & a fraud and who also
say they win tons of money, not willing to support their scandalous
assertions, when they say they are so sure they are right? It would
make for a good discussion in front of the vpFREE audience.

4. vpFREE has never catered to anyone, and treats all members
as fairly, objectively and equally as possible. The Administrators
have never had any personal axes to grind.

As I've said, the Queen, Dancer & Paymar are all catered to in one
uniform way. They are allowed to showcase their wares shamelessly
with every post. Similarly, you post their articles weekly, yet my
column, which is far more popular and read by far more people than
all the others combined, is for some reason disregarded....even
though most of the people find it and read it with a little more
effort anyway. And I don't depend on the same people to buy my goods
so I can continue to gamble.

5. An unmoderated, anything goes forum probably won't ever be
able to attract and keep the necessary membership base to operate
succesfully. Look at vp_heaven and FREEvpFREE.

I agree. But it doesn't have to be 'anything goes' either.

5. vpFREE must be doing something right. There are nearly 6000
documented members and growing.

You're right, and its incredible database, etc. is why I continue
not to have ant trouble at all identifying it and providing a link
to it from my site.

#3

Very well said Rob.

The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to break this
news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real world of a VP
machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a few years.
Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them. But to
hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of playing. I
have a very good friend, that I occasionally meet in LV who is over
1-million hands of so-called perfect play on ducks, job, pkm, and dbp
with no royal. Most of it single line. When questioned, the Guru's
either call him a liar or that he is not using perfect play and, being
very rude, go on to another subject. I have witnessed one of these
encounters. I went for 4-years without a royal, then hit 5 of them in
three days.

It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing? I believe
so in certain circumstances. And there-in lies the problem. It is very
difficult to quantify "circumstances" because each machine and game is
unique and you will never be able to define it. I think this would make
a great discussion on VPFree, but the Guru's and their loyal followers
will never let it take place. They will disrupt the thread so badly
that the administrator will move it over here. Have I every hit a 4ok
or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using them
about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with this, their
eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot win that
way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines long
run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point. They truly
believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their software,
books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very intolerant of
discussions that question that premise..

I will say that I think VP software and maybe a book is good for folks
just beginning. But once you have the basics down of understanding the
game you are playing and have played it for some length, it is time to
more on to understanding the machine and what might also be possible.
This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree. The loyal
followers are very aware that any thread that becomes disruptive will be
moved over here and they will make sure that it is.

I can remember back when Skip's group was free. Those were some great
days when everyone was learning and sharing information. Now its, "buy
my stuff, do it my way or take a hike".

Rant over.
Bob

rsing1111 wrote:

Thank you for the courteous response, and although I know you won't
reply again, I'll try to make my final points with due respect below.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator
<vp_free@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Rob:
>
> I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
> of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
> the courtesy of a one-time response.
>
> 1. The vpFREE Video Poker Group is a free internet forum for
> the discussion and exchange of information about video poker
> and video poker related topics. vpFREE is dedicated to sharing,
> promoting and preserving good video poker situations that can
> survive and prosper in an open market environment.

Accepted and agreed. However, in doing so you neglect to include the
very powerful message I bring, and one which is equally distributed
on-line to over 6000 enthusiasts as well as to the >100,000 who
might choose to become enlightened each week in Gaming Today.
There's even times when I expand my 'enlightment' and Tues. morning
is one of those times. In honor of Joanie Shapiro and for the
benefit of many who have shown remorse at Elliott's passing, I've
dedicated my GT column to Elliott's memory. You could post a direct
link to it on my site - as you do all of the others each week - if
you so desire.

> 2. I believe that the vpFREE rules facilitate the objectives stated
> above and I also believe that the rules are appreciated and
endorsed by 99.9 % of the membership.

That I'm not so convinced about. There's way too much silence, and
too many people voice their opinions stating otherwise to me.

> 3. I don't agree that "Normal people are stifled on vpFREE ...".
> The only people that are stifled are a handful of agitators and
> a few who seem to feel that "pot, kettle, black" postings are
> essential.

What I meant was there's a lot of posters who would like livlier
debate with a lot less guru self-promotion and guru-coddling, and
they're too afraid to do or say so with the moderation level in
effect. One major question I get: Just why would debating the
positives and negatives of my strategy or any other play strategies,
hurt the prime goals of vpFREE--other than for the disruptors
themselves---the gurus and a few Singer-haters--who have always
caused the majority of the problems?

> It's not necessary to attack or get personal in negative
situations. Disagreement can be expressed while observing the rules
and it can be done more effectively thereby.

I agree. It is always good to point out the negatives OF a situation
and why, and that along with lively back & forth debate in my
opinion, should be allowed on vpFREE. There should be no 'taboo
topic' such as people feel there is about me or my strategies. After
all, I have probably the best winning record of anyone ever, and
I've gone on published record as willing to put a very large sum of
money as well as pay for an official Nevada Arbitrator up against
those who have any reason to dispute it. And I am the only
professional gambler in history to have ever done so. People read
these thing and it's important for them to know more other than just
from me. Why are all those who call me a liar & a fraud and who also
say they win tons of money, not willing to support their scandalous
assertions, when they say they are so sure they are right? It would
make for a good discussion in front of the vpFREE audience.

> 4. vpFREE has never catered to anyone, and treats all members
> as fairly, objectively and equally as possible. The Administrators
> have never had any personal axes to grind.

As I've said, the Queen, Dancer & Paymar are all catered to in one
uniform way. They are allowed to showcase their wares shamelessly
with every post. Similarly, you post their articles weekly, yet my
column, which is far more popular and read by far more people than
all the others combined, is for some reason disregarded....even
though most of the people find it and read it with a little more
effort anyway. And I don't depend on the same people to buy my goods
so I can continue to gamble.

> 5. An unmoderated, anything goes forum probably won't ever be
> able to attract and keep the necessary membership base to operate
> succesfully. Look at vp_heaven and FREEvpFREE.

I agree. But it doesn't have to be 'anything goes' either.
>
> 5. vpFREE must be doing something right. There are nearly 6000
> documented members and growing.

You're right, and its incredible database, etc. is why I continue
not to have ant trouble at all identifying it and providing a link
to it from my site.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

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#4

OK before I go back into my shell, I just HAVE to ask... is THIS Rob
Singer and the guy who's been debating with Dick since God-knows-
when REALLY the same person?? The Rob Singer who posted below is
almost (gasp) likeable.

-MARK

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:

Thank you for the courteous response, and although I know you

won't

reply again, I'll try to make my final points with due respect

below.

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator
<vp_free@> wrote:
>
> Hi Rob:
>
> I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
> of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
> the courtesy of a one-time response.
>
> 1. The vpFREE Video Poker Group is a free internet forum for
> the discussion and exchange of information about video poker
> and video poker related topics. vpFREE is dedicated to sharing,
> promoting and preserving good video poker situations that can
> survive and prosper in an open market environment.

Accepted and agreed. However, in doing so you neglect to include

the

very powerful message I bring, and one which is equally

distributed

on-line to over 6000 enthusiasts as well as to the >100,000 who
might choose to become enlightened each week in Gaming Today.
There's even times when I expand my 'enlightment' and Tues.

morning

is one of those times. In honor of Joanie Shapiro and for the
benefit of many who have shown remorse at Elliott's passing, I've
dedicated my GT column to Elliott's memory. You could post a

direct

link to it on my site - as you do all of the others each week - if
you so desire.

> 2. I believe that the vpFREE rules facilitate the objectives

stated

> above and I also believe that the rules are appreciated and
endorsed by 99.9 % of the membership.

That I'm not so convinced about. There's way too much silence, and
too many people voice their opinions stating otherwise to me.

> 3. I don't agree that "Normal people are stifled on vpFREE ...".
> The only people that are stifled are a handful of agitators and
> a few who seem to feel that "pot, kettle, black" postings are
> essential.

What I meant was there's a lot of posters who would like livlier
debate with a lot less guru self-promotion and guru-coddling, and
they're too afraid to do or say so with the moderation level in
effect. One major question I get: Just why would debating the
positives and negatives of my strategy or any other play

strategies,

hurt the prime goals of vpFREE--other than for the disruptors
themselves---the gurus and a few Singer-haters--who have always
caused the majority of the problems?

> It's not necessary to attack or get personal in negative
situations. Disagreement can be expressed while observing the

rules

and it can be done more effectively thereby.

I agree. It is always good to point out the negatives OF a

situation

and why, and that along with lively back & forth debate in my
opinion, should be allowed on vpFREE. There should be no 'taboo
topic' such as people feel there is about me or my strategies.

After

all, I have probably the best winning record of anyone ever, and
I've gone on published record as willing to put a very large sum

of

money as well as pay for an official Nevada Arbitrator up against
those who have any reason to dispute it. And I am the only
professional gambler in history to have ever done so. People read
these thing and it's important for them to know more other than

just

from me. Why are all those who call me a liar & a fraud and who

also

say they win tons of money, not willing to support their

scandalous

assertions, when they say they are so sure they are right? It

would

make for a good discussion in front of the vpFREE audience.

> 4. vpFREE has never catered to anyone, and treats all members
> as fairly, objectively and equally as possible. The

Administrators

> have never had any personal axes to grind.

As I've said, the Queen, Dancer & Paymar are all catered to in one
uniform way. They are allowed to showcase their wares shamelessly
with every post. Similarly, you post their articles weekly, yet my
column, which is far more popular and read by far more people than
all the others combined, is for some reason disregarded....even
though most of the people find it and read it with a little more
effort anyway. And I don't depend on the same people to buy my

goods

so I can continue to gamble.

> 5. An unmoderated, anything goes forum probably won't ever be
> able to attract and keep the necessary membership base to

operate

···

> succesfully. Look at vp_heaven and FREEvpFREE.

I agree. But it doesn't have to be 'anything goes' either.
>
> 5. vpFREE must be doing something right. There are nearly 6000
> documented members and growing.

You're right, and its incredible database, etc. is why I continue
not to have ant trouble at all identifying it and providing a link
to it from my site.

#5

OK before I go back into my shell, I just HAVE to ask... is THIS

Rob Singer and the guy who's been debating with Dick since God-knows-

when REALLY the same person?? The Rob Singer who posted below is
almost (gasp) likeable.

Mark: 90% of what I write--and say, to those 'brave enough' to meet
up with me (and I say it that way because little dicky and a few
others have always weaseled out of a face-to-face)--is thoughtful,
respectable, insightful, and hopefully a learning experience for all
who choose to hear me. This stuff with the dicker is a bit over-the-
edge, but it is only so because I understand the pain he goes thru
with his disease, I understand how and why he lives in almost total
denial, and I understand the mistake he made in bolstering his and
her gambling compulsions by moving to LV to be closer to the
machines. It is all only to help him and not to hurt him, but help
can only come through the use of bold, truthful statements to the
heart of the matter. Certainly, he acts out the part of not having
any problems whatsoever, and indeed, he makes believe he's having
the 'perfect life' of gambling....always winning and getting
everything for 'free'. He is, in essence, an image of the Queen--one
of the most prolific self-promoters and denyers of all time. There's
no way he'll EVER agree or admit to anything I write about him--would
YOU want to embarrass yourself in front of others, especially after
you've worked so hard trying to but failing to 'belong' to the vp
guru clique in Lv and beyond? He'll instead diss what I say, create a
world of fantasy about himself inside his own mind, and as you've
seen, he resorted to using one word responses to all of my truthful
threads about him. I have to take that as him having had enough
ridicule and asking me to stop--so I will. Even if he comes here and
trys to transparently 'set the record straight' so he can continue to
feel good throughout the term of his illness. He's on his own, and
only if he begs for my help will he get it. I say 'beg' because
that's the emotional point one in his vulnerable position must reach
before he's able to reach out to anyone.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@...> wrote:

#6

Oh dear God help me, I know I'm going to regret this, I promised
myself I'd go back to lurking....

I come into this innocently... this is an honest question with no
agenda. Have you ever met Dick, like, in person? How is it that
you're so surely convinced that he is a compulsive gambler. No one
else on any of the forums he posts to seems to have come to that
conclusion.

As a graduate student in journalism, I enjoy his posts because he
pushes people -- you, Dancer, the Admin, whoever -- to make a point
and back it up with facts. He's relentless in that regard when it
comes to VP-related topics. And yeah, he says he plays a few days a
week. But for any of us to say that another poster on this forum is
a problem gamber seems a reach.

Some people reading this will probably say, Mark, stop, you don't
know what you're getting into, Rob's been banned on forums, his
systems make no sense, you can't use logic when you write to him,
etc. And I don't plan on a back and forth for very long. But you
were respectful to me so I was just curious what makes you so sure
you're right about Dick.

-MARK

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:

> OK before I go back into my shell, I just HAVE to ask... is THIS
Rob Singer and the guy who's been debating with Dick since God-

knows-

> when REALLY the same person?? The Rob Singer who posted below is
> almost (gasp) likeable.

Mark: 90% of what I write--and say, to those 'brave enough' to

meet

up with me (and I say it that way because little dicky and a few
others have always weaseled out of a face-to-face)--is thoughtful,
respectable, insightful, and hopefully a learning experience for

all

who choose to hear me. This stuff with the dicker is a bit over-

the-

edge, but it is only so because I understand the pain he goes thru
with his disease, I understand how and why he lives in almost

total

denial, and I understand the mistake he made in bolstering his and
her gambling compulsions by moving to LV to be closer to the
machines. It is all only to help him and not to hurt him, but help
can only come through the use of bold, truthful statements to the
heart of the matter. Certainly, he acts out the part of not having
any problems whatsoever, and indeed, he makes believe he's having
the 'perfect life' of gambling....always winning and getting
everything for 'free'. He is, in essence, an image of the Queen--

one

of the most prolific self-promoters and denyers of all time.

There's

no way he'll EVER agree or admit to anything I write about him--

would

YOU want to embarrass yourself in front of others, especially

after

you've worked so hard trying to but failing to 'belong' to the vp
guru clique in Lv and beyond? He'll instead diss what I say,

create a

world of fantasy about himself inside his own mind, and as you've
seen, he resorted to using one word responses to all of my

truthful

threads about him. I have to take that as him having had enough
ridicule and asking me to stop--so I will. Even if he comes here

and

trys to transparently 'set the record straight' so he can continue

to

feel good throughout the term of his illness. He's on his own, and
only if he begs for my help will he get it. I say 'beg' because
that's the emotional point one in his vulnerable position must

reach

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@> wrote:
before he's able to reach out to anyone.

#7

I come into this innocently... this is an honest question with no
agenda. Have you ever met Dick, like, in person?

No, although I've tried and tried. He usually comes on as wanting to
and not fearful of doing so (fearful not meaning physically, but
emotionally), but just as with ALL his challenges, etc., he always
seems to have a last minute pre-planned escape route of some sort as
the meet gets close to firming up.

How is it that you're so surely convinced that he is a compulsive

gambler. No one else on any of the forums he posts to seems to have
come to that conclusion.

First, compulsive gambling problems are not going to readily be
discussed on video poker forums. If they ever are, it's guaranteed
that most will say others may be affected and not them. And no one
can ever be 100% certain about someone else. That's why common sense
was invented, and if a person feels it's warranted and they have the
means, then they will also do personal investigation to support their
own suspicions. I have not done this to much extent with Dick and I
won't, but I have with certain 'famous-named' others--but never for
public release and only for my own edification which does guide my
writings. As for Dick, I go by what he writes about himself. Bragging
about 26 royals in 6-months; claiming his wife's the 'real gambler'
and not him; he gambles even at Indian casinos and stops at casinos
on trips around the country; he moved to LV to be closer to the
machines; and his penchant for going out 'almost' every day when
living in LV to gamble about 3 hours each. I've talked in person to
many hundreds of LV locals since I came on the scene, and people tend
to open up with the truth about themselves at such times - as
compared to the enormous amount of denial they depicted to me in e-
mail and Internet chatter. What I have come to understand is that
most people who have even just one or two of his traits do label
themselves compulsive/problem gamblers....even sometimes to the point
of degeneracy. And nearly ALL of them say they are 'advantage
players' just like he claims to be. Going with percentages, I think
you now understand why. I like to think I've help many of these folks
with my different strategies that shun sitting at machines daily or
for hours every week, are much more fun to play, and give the player
far better opportunity. The problem with Dick is that he's
extraordinarily argumentative, he's one of the more extreme cases of
self-denial I've come across, and he tries too hard to portray a
certain image in front of others. He's hurting inside, believe me.
His schtick doesn't fool me because I've seen them all--including
myself in the past.

As a graduate student in journalism, I enjoy his posts because he
pushes people -- you, Dancer, the Admin, whoever -- to make a point
and back it up with facts. He's relentless in that regard when it
comes to VP-related topics. And yeah, he says he plays a few days a
week. But for any of us to say that another poster on this forum is
a problem gamber seems a reach.

He pushes people for sure, but that's only born from a life of being
pushed himself--sometimes obviously unable or unwilling to comply. He
now thrives on doing what I call taking the easy way out in life. He
hides behind his computer and feels he somehow is on the road
to 'belonging' to some mythical video poker great admiration society,
by chiming in on various subjects and especially on posts by those
considered to have famous names. He tries very hard to articulate
well, but I see where and how often he struggles trying to keep up.
It's when he supposedly pushes for documentation or support or facts
that he is really at his most vulnerable point, because he makes an
inordinate amount of 'assertions' himself that are neither
supportable nor, at times, supported by his instant Internet search.
Sometimes they are, but he greatly relies upon selective
interpretations and sometimes even misrepresentations--and
conveniently calls it a day.

Some people reading this will probably say, Mark, stop, you don't
know what you're getting into, Rob's been banned on forums, his
systems make no sense, you can't use logic when you write to him,
etc. And I don't plan on a back and forth for very long. But you
were respectful to me so I was just curious what makes you so sure
you're right about Dick.

I know of no forum I've been banned on. My 'system' usually makes no
sense to those who haven't applied it after fully understanding it in
every way. It's certainly served me well. I'm not saying I'm 100%
sure about Dick because of aforementioned reasoning, but based on the
facts I do have, how they relate to the many others I've talked to,
and my own personal experiences, I believe I'm right. It's never
popular to accuse someone of such a lowly vice. In truth I really
feel somewhat guilty pounding away at him at times. I have no doubt
he's an otherwise regular person who's worked his whole life and now
is trying to find a path to enjoyment, and I know he's intelligent
for sure. Nerdy, but we need these type people.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@...> wrote:

#8

Giggle ... I had the exact same reaction. Rob's post is classic-con
and a nice demonstration of how bullies and con-men can abruptly
change personalities when it suits their purposes.

The Administator (TA) displayed some vulnerability ("I'm
flattered ...") and that's all it took for Rob to immediately change
into a charming polite gentleman making his case for TA to open the
door to him on vpfree. It's all just an act.

Refuse the con and hold him accountable, and the bully will reappear.

OK before I go back into my shell, I just HAVE to ask... is THIS

Rob

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@...> wrote:

Singer and the guy who's been debating with Dick since God-knows-
when REALLY the same person?? The Rob Singer who posted below is
almost (gasp) likeable.

-MARK

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
>
> Thank you for the courteous response, and although I know you
won't
> reply again, I'll try to make my final points with due respect
below.
>
> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator
> <vp_free@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rob:
> >
> > I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
> > of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
> > the courtesy of a one-time response.

#9

Bob:

You probably won't get an argument by Dick on your VERY sensible post
because you are not a famous name, i.e., he won't feel as if it's a
step on the ladder of becoming accepted into his dreampt-up 'video
poker club of important people'. He'd also need to dissect each and
every point you've made, and at this point with that long drive to
the Indian casino, all he has time to do is call every opinion and
experience an 'assertion' and make believe a fact has to be produced
in order to make it so. If you want to poke some fun at him, bounce
back a point he labels "lie" or "liar" and challenge him to support
THAT 'assertion' with evidence! It gets him every time.....

You've got a good hold on what the gurus & geeks say whenever you
deviate from expert play to go for a big winner. Having been the
recipient of many-a-comment from them, let me give you the exact
wording of the most famous yet foolish criticizm that came in a bit
over a year ago, just after I wrote an article about playing $25
9/5DDB at the Venetian. I was dealt I think 3377X, whereas a FH would
not have attained my mini-goal or overall session goal. I held the 33
and the draw produced 332. $20k---and the same type thing happened
one trip later on the same machine. What was the famous-name
reply? "Sure, Rob got lucky and won a big jackpot then, but what he
really did was lose, because that play cost him $9.75 (or some
meaningless number) and in 'the long run' he'll be a loser because of
it".

I'm sure you realize just how stupid a comment that was, but these
guys continue to make verbal mish-mash out of reality. The fact that
playing the $25 machine is not all that frequent in my play strategy
aside, just how long would it take to lose $20k worth of $9'75's in
that manner anyway? Do I play the addict-way and go to casinos for 3
or more hours a day? HAHA! Maybe THEY do--and I feel sorry for those
who are in that rut. But a true professional gambler who plays video
poker never would do that. Ever.

Enjoy the Springtime up there!

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Sommer - Top of the World
Coins <NL7HT@...> wrote:

Very well said Rob.

The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to break

this

news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real world of a

VP

machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a few years.
Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them.

But to

hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of

playing. I

have a very good friend, that I occasionally meet in LV who is over
1-million hands of so-called perfect play on ducks, job, pkm, and

dbp

with no royal. Most of it single line. When questioned, the

Guru's

either call him a liar or that he is not using perfect play and,

being

very rude, go on to another subject. I have witnessed one of

these

encounters. I went for 4-years without a royal, then hit 5 of them

in

three days.

It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing? I

believe

so in certain circumstances. And there-in lies the problem. It is

very

difficult to quantify "circumstances" because each machine and game

is

unique and you will never be able to define it. I think this would

make

a great discussion on VPFree, but the Guru's and their loyal

followers

will never let it take place. They will disrupt the thread so

badly

that the administrator will move it over here. Have I every hit a

4ok

or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using

them

about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with this,

their

eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot win

that

way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines long
run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point. They truly
believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their software,
books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very

intolerant of

discussions that question that premise..

I will say that I think VP software and maybe a book is good for

folks

just beginning. But once you have the basics down of understanding

the

game you are playing and have played it for some length, it is time

to

more on to understanding the machine and what might also be

possible.

This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree. The

loyal

followers are very aware that any thread that becomes disruptive

will be

moved over here and they will make sure that it is.

I can remember back when Skip's group was free. Those were some

great

days when everyone was learning and sharing information. Now

its, "buy

my stuff, do it my way or take a hike".

Rant over.
Bob

rsing1111 wrote:

> Thank you for the courteous response, and although I know you

won't

> reply again, I'll try to make my final points with due respect

below.

>
> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, vpFREE Administrator
> <vp_free@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Rob:
> >
> > I'm flattered that you've taken the time to address the myriad
> > of problems that you see besetting vpFREE, and I'll give you
> > the courtesy of a one-time response.
> >
> > 1. The vpFREE Video Poker Group is a free internet forum for
> > the discussion and exchange of information about video poker
> > and video poker related topics. vpFREE is dedicated to sharing,
> > promoting and preserving good video poker situations that can
> > survive and prosper in an open market environment.
>
> Accepted and agreed. However, in doing so you neglect to include

the

> very powerful message I bring, and one which is equally

distributed

> on-line to over 6000 enthusiasts as well as to the >100,000 who
> might choose to become enlightened each week in Gaming Today.
> There's even times when I expand my 'enlightment' and Tues.

morning

> is one of those times. In honor of Joanie Shapiro and for the
> benefit of many who have shown remorse at Elliott's passing, I've
> dedicated my GT column to Elliott's memory. You could post a

direct

> link to it on my site - as you do all of the others each week - if
> you so desire.
>
> > 2. I believe that the vpFREE rules facilitate the objectives

stated

> > above and I also believe that the rules are appreciated and
> endorsed by 99.9 % of the membership.
>
> That I'm not so convinced about. There's way too much silence, and
> too many people voice their opinions stating otherwise to me.
>
> > 3. I don't agree that "Normal people are stifled on vpFREE ...".
> > The only people that are stifled are a handful of agitators and
> > a few who seem to feel that "pot, kettle, black" postings are
> > essential.
>
> What I meant was there's a lot of posters who would like livlier
> debate with a lot less guru self-promotion and guru-coddling, and
> they're too afraid to do or say so with the moderation level in
> effect. One major question I get: Just why would debating the
> positives and negatives of my strategy or any other play

strategies,

> hurt the prime goals of vpFREE--other than for the disruptors
> themselves---the gurus and a few Singer-haters--who have always
> caused the majority of the problems?
>
> > It's not necessary to attack or get personal in negative
> situations. Disagreement can be expressed while observing the

rules

> and it can be done more effectively thereby.
>
> I agree. It is always good to point out the negatives OF a

situation

> and why, and that along with lively back & forth debate in my
> opinion, should be allowed on vpFREE. There should be no 'taboo
> topic' such as people feel there is about me or my strategies.

After

> all, I have probably the best winning record of anyone ever, and
> I've gone on published record as willing to put a very large sum

of

> money as well as pay for an official Nevada Arbitrator up against
> those who have any reason to dispute it. And I am the only
> professional gambler in history to have ever done so. People read
> these thing and it's important for them to know more other than

just

> from me. Why are all those who call me a liar & a fraud and who

also

> say they win tons of money, not willing to support their

scandalous

> assertions, when they say they are so sure they are right? It

would

> make for a good discussion in front of the vpFREE audience.
>
> > 4. vpFREE has never catered to anyone, and treats all members
> > as fairly, objectively and equally as possible. The

Administrators

> > have never had any personal axes to grind.
>
> As I've said, the Queen, Dancer & Paymar are all catered to in one
> uniform way. They are allowed to showcase their wares shamelessly
> with every post. Similarly, you post their articles weekly, yet my
> column, which is far more popular and read by far more people than
> all the others combined, is for some reason disregarded....even
> though most of the people find it and read it with a little more
> effort anyway. And I don't depend on the same people to buy my

goods

> so I can continue to gamble.
>
> > 5. An unmoderated, anything goes forum probably won't ever be
> > able to attract and keep the necessary membership base to

operate

···

> > succesfully. Look at vp_heaven and FREEvpFREE.
>
> I agree. But it doesn't have to be 'anything goes' either.
> >
> > 5. vpFREE must be doing something right. There are nearly 6000
> > documented members and growing.
>
> You're right, and its incredible database, etc. is why I continue
> not to have ant trouble at all identifying it and providing a link
> to it from my site.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "FREEvpFREE
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FREEvpFREE>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> FREEvpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:FREEvpFREE-unsubscr…@…com?

subject=Unsubscribe>

>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

------

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#10

Then you didn't get it and you don't know the Administrator. That's
what's so funny here......

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4K@...> wrote:

The Administator (TA) displayed some vulnerability ("I'm
flattered ...")

#11

Fair enough. IIRC, Dick has addressed all your points in many posts
over the months, and if he chooses to, he will again. I have nothing
more to add.

As an aside, I resent Harry feeling important enough to express to
me and others like me his failure to understand why I don't move on.
I don't feel the need to explain to him or any others why I read
VPFree. I snipe BECAUSE I like the forum, despite current
administration, and I want to see it better. BUT the self-appointed
assistant administrator does have a point when it comes to you. If
you can tone down most of your contributions to this level of
vitriol (with an occasional Dancer and Prancer thrown in for
entertainment value), you'd be a fun read. Right now I'm still in
favor of mathematically correct max-EV strategies on the highest EV
machines I can find, but well-written entertaining prose on gambling
topics is always interesting.

-MARK

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:

> I come into this innocently... this is an honest question with

no

> agenda. Have you ever met Dick, like, in person?

No, although I've tried and tried. He usually comes on as wanting

to

and not fearful of doing so (fearful not meaning physically, but
emotionally), but just as with ALL his challenges, etc., he always
seems to have a last minute pre-planned escape route of some sort

as

the meet gets close to firming up.

>How is it that you're so surely convinced that he is a compulsive
gambler. No one else on any of the forums he posts to seems to

have

come to that conclusion.

First, compulsive gambling problems are not going to readily be
discussed on video poker forums. If they ever are, it's guaranteed
that most will say others may be affected and not them. And no one
can ever be 100% certain about someone else. That's why common

sense

was invented, and if a person feels it's warranted and they have

the

means, then they will also do personal investigation to support

their

own suspicions. I have not done this to much extent with Dick and

I

won't, but I have with certain 'famous-named' others--but never

for

public release and only for my own edification which does guide my
writings. As for Dick, I go by what he writes about himself.

Bragging

about 26 royals in 6-months; claiming his wife's the 'real

gambler'

and not him; he gambles even at Indian casinos and stops at

casinos

on trips around the country; he moved to LV to be closer to the
machines; and his penchant for going out 'almost' every day when
living in LV to gamble about 3 hours each. I've talked in person

to

many hundreds of LV locals since I came on the scene, and people

tend

to open up with the truth about themselves at such times - as
compared to the enormous amount of denial they depicted to me in e-
mail and Internet chatter. What I have come to understand is that
most people who have even just one or two of his traits do label
themselves compulsive/problem gamblers....even sometimes to the

point

of degeneracy. And nearly ALL of them say they are 'advantage
players' just like he claims to be. Going with percentages, I

think

you now understand why. I like to think I've help many of these

folks

with my different strategies that shun sitting at machines daily

or

for hours every week, are much more fun to play, and give the

player

far better opportunity. The problem with Dick is that he's
extraordinarily argumentative, he's one of the more extreme cases

of

self-denial I've come across, and he tries too hard to portray a
certain image in front of others. He's hurting inside, believe me.
His schtick doesn't fool me because I've seen them all--including
myself in the past.

> As a graduate student in journalism, I enjoy his posts because

he

> pushes people -- you, Dancer, the Admin, whoever -- to make a

point

> and back it up with facts. He's relentless in that regard when

it

> comes to VP-related topics. And yeah, he says he plays a few

days a

> week. But for any of us to say that another poster on this forum

is

> a problem gamber seems a reach.

He pushes people for sure, but that's only born from a life of

being

pushed himself--sometimes obviously unable or unwilling to comply.

He

now thrives on doing what I call taking the easy way out in life.

He

hides behind his computer and feels he somehow is on the road
to 'belonging' to some mythical video poker great admiration

society,

by chiming in on various subjects and especially on posts by those
considered to have famous names. He tries very hard to articulate
well, but I see where and how often he struggles trying to keep

up.

It's when he supposedly pushes for documentation or support or

facts

that he is really at his most vulnerable point, because he makes

an

inordinate amount of 'assertions' himself that are neither
supportable nor, at times, supported by his instant Internet

search.

Sometimes they are, but he greatly relies upon selective
interpretations and sometimes even misrepresentations--and
conveniently calls it a day.

> Some people reading this will probably say, Mark, stop, you

don't

> know what you're getting into, Rob's been banned on forums, his
> systems make no sense, you can't use logic when you write to

him,

> etc. And I don't plan on a back and forth for very long. But you
> were respectful to me so I was just curious what makes you so

sure

> you're right about Dick.

I know of no forum I've been banned on. My 'system' usually makes

no

sense to those who haven't applied it after fully understanding it

in

every way. It's certainly served me well. I'm not saying I'm 100%
sure about Dick because of aforementioned reasoning, but based on

the

facts I do have, how they relate to the many others I've talked

to,

and my own personal experiences, I believe I'm right. It's never
popular to accuse someone of such a lowly vice. In truth I really
feel somewhat guilty pounding away at him at times. I have no

doubt

he's an otherwise regular person who's worked his whole life and

now

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@> wrote:
is trying to find a path to enjoyment, and I know he's intelligent
for sure. Nerdy, but we need these type people.

#12

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Sommer - Top of the World
Coins <NL7HT@...> wrote:

Very well said Rob.

This will probably undo a lot of good work.

The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to break

this

news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real world of a

VP

machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a few years.

Please explain the difference. Most home computers have faster CPUs
but also have slow disks. A VP machine IS a computer running a single
imbedded program.

Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them.

Again, please provide supporting evidence. Personally, I happen to
believe that people, not machines, "run in hot and cold streaks". For
example, let's look at golf. When a golfer is on top of his game,
like Lefty is right now, no one says "those clubs run in hot and cold
streaks". It's always the person. Why is it in the gambling world we
view the machine as the culprit/genie? While I believe the machines
of 10 years ago could have streaks based on natural variations in the
RNG, it don't think that's very likely today.

What most people don't understand is that random is not a synonym for
consistent. Any consistent payout over time would actually be an
indicator of non-randomness. You should expect streaks. That's part
of randomness.

But to
hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of

playing.

That's exactly what it is. Try flipping a coin a few thousand times
and track the patterns.

I
have a very good friend, that I occasionally meet in LV who is over
1-million hands of so-called perfect play on ducks, job, pkm, and

dbp

with no royal. Most of it single line. When questioned, the

Guru's

either call him a liar or that he is not using perfect play and,

being

very rude, go on to another subject.

Being rude is not necessary. Anyone who would claim a million hands
without a RF is not possible does not understand randomness. However,
how many of these million was on pkm? This situation might not be as
low a probability as it seems.

When I first started AP I went over 200K hands without a RF. At the
same time I also hit the secondary jackpot (WRF on OEJs) around half
as much as statistically average. I lost around $6K at .25. Was this
bad luck? Absolutely. Was it proof that the machines were not random?
Not at all. In fact, I hit 6 RFs over the next 6 weeks to get even
very quickly. Was this lucky? Yes. Was it proof that the machines
were not random. Not at all.

I have witnessed one of these
encounters. I went for 4-years without a royal, then hit 5 of them

in

three days.

The number of years is not relevant. The number of hands is the only
usable value. However, I've probably done the same thing more than
once, although compressed timewise. I gave you one example above.

It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing? I

believe

so in certain circumstances.

If you trust in the randomness of the machines then there are no such
things as special plays. There are only plays. Over time anyone
playing will approach the statistical average of the way they play.

And there-in lies the problem. It is very
difficult to quantify "circumstances" because each machine and game

is

unique and you will never be able to define it.

If it can't be defined then I have trouble understanding the
usefulness. I think one of the problems people have accepting expert
play is the number of times they see other holds "hit" if they would
have held them instead of the expert play. The missing part of this
puzzle is that there are 31 other holds and only one expert hold. Of
course, one of those 31 is going to "hit" more often than the expert
hold. The problem is you never know which one BEFORE the fact.

I think this would make
a great discussion on VPFree, but the Guru's and their loyal

followers

will never let it take place. They will disrupt the thread so

badly

that the administrator will move it over here.

You're probably right, and I still have a problem with the "not
definable" part.

Have I every hit a 4ok
or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using

them

about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with this,

their

eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot win

that

way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines long
run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point.

The only "long run" that is meaningful to any gambler is THEIR long
run. Do you have evidence that using these special plays has improved
your results?

They truly
believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their software,
books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very

intolerant of

discussions that question that premise..

I don't think "buying" stuff has anything to do with the premise. If
VP is fair/random with independently dealt hands, then the MATH
predicts that MORE people will do better over time using expert play.
There are no guarantees. If you remember some discussions previously
on VPFree it was discussed that Max-EV strategy is not a holy grail.
Each gambler should determine their own goals and proceed
accordingly. If someone wishes to sacrifice EV for the bigger hands
and hopes that they hit more often than statistically average, then
that is fine. However, telling others that this method is the BEST
way to win is simply a lie.

I will say that I think VP software and maybe a book is good for

folks

just beginning. But once you have the basics down of understanding

the

game you are playing and have played it for some length, it is time

to

more on to understanding the machine and what might also be

possible.

What is possible?

This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree. The

loyal

followers are very aware that any thread that becomes disruptive

will be

moved over here and they will make sure that it is.

I think the problem is one of accepting the machines are fair and
random. Once you accept that, then everything is possible, but
nothing is PREDICTABLE. Therein lies the problem of having any
reasonable discussion.

I can remember back when Skip's group was free. Those were some

great

days when everyone was learning and sharing information. Now

its, "buy

my stuff, do it my way or take a hike".

Rant over.
Bob

I once happened on a bank of slot machine that was not working as
intended (at least I assume it wasn't intended). It was a
Red/White/Blue 1 line basic game. During the time my wife and I won
over $3300 we never saw any of the top jackpots. What happened was 3
red bars came up every few spins. All you had to do was keep pressing
the spin button and the credits gradually increased. My point? This
has happened to me ONCE. It is always possible to find machines that
aren't random/fair. Never assume anything. However, most of the time
it is more prudent to accept that things really are as they should
be, there is no conspiracy and all you can do is set your own goals
and proceed accordingly.

#13

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bob Sommer - Top of the World
Coins <NL7HT@> wrote:
>
> Very well said Rob.

This will probably undo a lot of good work.

Now don't start coming apart. You still have your addiction to fall
back on.....

> The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to

break this news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real
world of a VP machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a
few years.

Please explain the difference. Most home computers have faster

CPUs but also have slow disks. A VP machine IS a computer running a
single imbedded program.

If you read the post first rather than run around like a gremlin
trying to out-do others all the time, you'd have seen the answer.
Please don't TRY to look any more foolish than you already are. It's
embarrassing with me as your sponsor.
  

> Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them.

Again, please provide supporting evidence. Personally, I happen to
believe that people, not machines, "run in hot and cold streaks".

For example, let's look at golf. When a golfer is on top of his
game, like Lefty is right now

Now you've resorted to comparing a human golfer to a vp
player....and a golf ball to a computer! Incredible. How about
providing supporting documentation on THAT one!!

Seems everyone in the world but you don't know about the hot & cold
pre-programmed cycles, little dicky. What's the matter--feeling LEFT
OUT again by the nonsense-selling gurus? Mad at them cause they
didn't 'fill you in'? Is that why you have a hair on your butt with
Dancer all the time? Then let the sufferring stop here and now, and
let me help you out a little more. Each casino has it's own
individual Memorandum of Agreement with the machine manufacturer.
Every installation requires the vp machine NEVER dip below a certain
hold percentage. And just how do you think the percentage comes up?
No, they don't call me in to play a few sessions. Take a good guess.

But to hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of
playing.

That's exactly what it is. Try flipping a coin a few thousand

times and track the patterns.

The usual geek-argement to fall back on when lost in a quagmire---
the famous coin flip.

> It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing? I
believe so in certain circumstances.

If you trust in the randomness of the machines then there are no

such things as special plays. There are only plays. Over time anyone

playing will approach the statistical average of the way they play.

You also forgot to mention you trust that your mama didn't drop you
on your head when you were a child--only we've seen quite the
contrary to that misadventure.

> And there-in lies the problem. It is very
> difficult to quantify "circumstances" because each machine and

game

is
> unique and you will never be able to define it.

If it can't be defined then I have trouble understanding the
usefulness. I think one of the problems people have accepting

expert

play is the number of times they see other holds "hit" if they

would

have held them instead of the expert play. The missing part of

this

puzzle is that there are 31 other holds and only one expert hold.

Of

course, one of those 31 is going to "hit" more often than the

expert

hold. The problem is you never know which one BEFORE the fact.

> I think this would make
> a great discussion on VPFree, but the Guru's and their loyal
followers
> will never let it take place. They will disrupt the thread so
badly
> that the administrator will move it over here.

You're probably right, and I still have a problem with the "not
definable" part.

> Have I every hit a 4ok
> or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using
them
> about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with

this,

their
> eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot win
that
> way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines

long

> run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point.

The only "long run" that is meaningful to any gambler is THEIR

long run. Do you have evidence that using these special plays has
improved your results?

Watch out Bob. Even if you TELL this guy what he's asking for - like
I have on how special plays that deviate from optimal strategy have
meant hundreds of thousands of dollars to me in profit (including
those two $25 quads w/kickers and the $25 RF) he'll come back and
either dismiss it because you're 'asserting' something without 100%
supporting geek-documentation, or he'll call you a liar (to which if
you demand evidence to that effect, he'll skip over it the next go-
around).

> They truly
> believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their

software,

> books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very
intolerant of
> discussions that question that premise..

I don't think "buying" stuff has anything to do with the premise.

If

VP is fair/random with independently dealt hands, then the MATH
predicts that MORE people will do better over time using expert

play.

There are no guarantees. If you remember some discussions

previously

on VPFree it was discussed that Max-EV strategy is not a holy

grail.

Each gambler should determine their own goals and proceed
accordingly. If someone wishes to sacrifice EV for the bigger

hands

and hopes that they hit more often than statistically average,

then

that is fine. However, telling others that this method is the BEST
way to win is simply a lie.

Well there you have it! He's already underhandedly calling you a
liar before you even answer!

> I will say that I think VP software and maybe a book is good for
folks
> just beginning. But once you have the basics down of

understanding

the
> game you are playing and have played it for some length, it is

time

to
> more on to understanding the machine and what might also be
possible.

What is possible?

> This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree.

The

loyal
> followers are very aware that any thread that becomes disruptive
will be
> moved over here and they will make sure that it is.

I think the problem is one of accepting the machines are fair and
random. Once you accept that, then everything is possible, but
nothing is PREDICTABLE. Therein lies the problem of having any
reasonable discussion.

Little dicky resides in fantasyland, where everything is hearts &
flowers, he nor his wife are compulsive/problem gamblers, and the vp
machines are completely random. It HAS to be that way, and HIS way
is the ONLY possible way. No one else could ever possibly be right
if it differs from his scenario. Otherwise, nerds would be
committing suicide from coast to coast in record numbers.

I once happened on a bank of slot machine that was not working as
intended (at least I assume it wasn't intended). It was a
Red/White/Blue 1 line basic game. During the time my wife and I

won

over $3300 we never saw any of the top jackpots. What happened was

3

red bars came up every few spins. All you had to do was keep

pressing

the spin button and the credits gradually increased. My point?

This

has happened to me ONCE. It is always possible to find machines

that

aren't random/fair. Never assume anything. However, most of the

time

it is more prudent to accept that things really are as they should
be, there is no conspiracy and all you can do is set your own

goals

and proceed accordingly.

Yup, he's at his best when talking about gambling situations! You
wanna bet how SWEATY his palms got when writing that goofy thing up?

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

#14

LOL! This is a very illogical response to a HUGE PILE of Singer
nonsense. Has "Mark" been conned? Or ... more likely ... is he part
of the con?

Fair enough. IIRC, Dick has addressed all your points in many posts
over the months, and if he chooses to, he will again. I have

nothing

more to add.

As an aside, I resent Harry feeling important enough to express to
me and others like me his failure to understand why I don't move

on.

I don't feel the need to explain to him or any others why I read
VPFree. I snipe BECAUSE I like the forum, despite current
administration, and I want to see it better. BUT the self-appointed
assistant administrator does have a point when it comes to you. If
you can tone down most of your contributions to this level of
vitriol (with an occasional Dancer and Prancer thrown in for
entertainment value), you'd be a fun read. Right now I'm still in
favor of mathematically correct max-EV strategies on the highest EV
machines I can find, but well-written entertaining prose on

gambling

topics is always interesting.

-MARK

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
>
> > I come into this innocently... this is an honest question with
no
> > agenda. Have you ever met Dick, like, in person?
>
> No, although I've tried and tried. He usually comes on as wanting
to
> and not fearful of doing so (fearful not meaning physically, but
> emotionally), but just as with ALL his challenges, etc., he

always

> seems to have a last minute pre-planned escape route of some sort
as
> the meet gets close to firming up.
>
> >How is it that you're so surely convinced that he is a

compulsive

> gambler. No one else on any of the forums he posts to seems to
have
> come to that conclusion.
>
> First, compulsive gambling problems are not going to readily be
> discussed on video poker forums. If they ever are, it's

guaranteed

> that most will say others may be affected and not them. And no

one

> can ever be 100% certain about someone else. That's why common
sense
> was invented, and if a person feels it's warranted and they have
the
> means, then they will also do personal investigation to support
their
> own suspicions. I have not done this to much extent with Dick and
I
> won't, but I have with certain 'famous-named' others--but never
for
> public release and only for my own edification which does guide

my

> writings. As for Dick, I go by what he writes about himself.
Bragging
> about 26 royals in 6-months; claiming his wife's the 'real
gambler'
> and not him; he gambles even at Indian casinos and stops at
casinos
> on trips around the country; he moved to LV to be closer to the
> machines; and his penchant for going out 'almost' every day when
> living in LV to gamble about 3 hours each. I've talked in person
to
> many hundreds of LV locals since I came on the scene, and people
tend
> to open up with the truth about themselves at such times - as
> compared to the enormous amount of denial they depicted to me in

e-

> mail and Internet chatter. What I have come to understand is that
> most people who have even just one or two of his traits do label
> themselves compulsive/problem gamblers....even sometimes to the
point
> of degeneracy. And nearly ALL of them say they are 'advantage
> players' just like he claims to be. Going with percentages, I
think
> you now understand why. I like to think I've help many of these
folks
> with my different strategies that shun sitting at machines daily
or
> for hours every week, are much more fun to play, and give the
player
> far better opportunity. The problem with Dick is that he's
> extraordinarily argumentative, he's one of the more extreme cases
of
> self-denial I've come across, and he tries too hard to portray a
> certain image in front of others. He's hurting inside, believe

me.

> His schtick doesn't fool me because I've seen them all--including
> myself in the past.
>
> > As a graduate student in journalism, I enjoy his posts because
he
> > pushes people -- you, Dancer, the Admin, whoever -- to make a
point
> > and back it up with facts. He's relentless in that regard when
it
> > comes to VP-related topics. And yeah, he says he plays a few
days a
> > week. But for any of us to say that another poster on this

forum

is
> > a problem gamber seems a reach.
>
> He pushes people for sure, but that's only born from a life of
being
> pushed himself--sometimes obviously unable or unwilling to

comply.

He
> now thrives on doing what I call taking the easy way out in life.
He
> hides behind his computer and feels he somehow is on the road
> to 'belonging' to some mythical video poker great admiration
society,
> by chiming in on various subjects and especially on posts by

those

> considered to have famous names. He tries very hard to articulate
> well, but I see where and how often he struggles trying to keep
up.
> It's when he supposedly pushes for documentation or support or
facts
> that he is really at his most vulnerable point, because he makes
an
> inordinate amount of 'assertions' himself that are neither
> supportable nor, at times, supported by his instant Internet
search.
> Sometimes they are, but he greatly relies upon selective
> interpretations and sometimes even misrepresentations--and
> conveniently calls it a day.
>
> > Some people reading this will probably say, Mark, stop, you
don't
> > know what you're getting into, Rob's been banned on forums, his
> > systems make no sense, you can't use logic when you write to
him,
> > etc. And I don't plan on a back and forth for very long. But

you

> > were respectful to me so I was just curious what makes you so
sure
> > you're right about Dick.
>
> I know of no forum I've been banned on. My 'system' usually makes
no
> sense to those who haven't applied it after fully understanding

it

in
> every way. It's certainly served me well. I'm not saying I'm 100%
> sure about Dick because of aforementioned reasoning, but based on
the
> facts I do have, how they relate to the many others I've talked
to,
> and my own personal experiences, I believe I'm right. It's never
> popular to accuse someone of such a lowly vice. In truth I really
> feel somewhat guilty pounding away at him at times. I have no
doubt
> he's an otherwise regular person who's worked his whole life and
now
> is trying to find a path to enjoyment, and I know he's

intelligent

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@...> wrote:

> --- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@> wrote:
> for sure. Nerdy, but we need these type people.
>

#15

Definitely not the latter. Maybe the former. I dont go back to the
vp_heaven days, or the days when Singer actually was allowed to post
on VPFree. So I am probably underestimating how bad it really was.
But I've never been to Arizona, and I don't personally know anyone
named Singer -- or Argentino for that matter.

I appreciate 2-WILD's concern. If by conned, he means, taking Singer
at face value, he's half correct. When I speak directly to him I try
to treat him like I am treated (even if he's faking it). But that
doesn't mean I'm about to go make special plays on Triple Bonus. I
have an undergrad degree in math, and I believe in max-EV strategy.

If I lived thru more of the history then I'd probably realize
exactly how illogical I'm being. I certainly grant you that.

-MARK

LOL! This is a very illogical response to a HUGE PILE of Singer
nonsense. Has "Mark" been conned? Or ... more likely ... is he

part

of the con?

>
> Fair enough. IIRC, Dick has addressed all your points in many

posts

> over the months, and if he chooses to, he will again. I have
nothing
> more to add.
>
> As an aside, I resent Harry feeling important enough to express

to

> me and others like me his failure to understand why I don't move
on.
> I don't feel the need to explain to him or any others why I read
> VPFree. I snipe BECAUSE I like the forum, despite current
> administration, and I want to see it better. BUT the self-

appointed

> assistant administrator does have a point when it comes to you.

If

> you can tone down most of your contributions to this level of
> vitriol (with an occasional Dancer and Prancer thrown in for
> entertainment value), you'd be a fun read. Right now I'm still

in

> favor of mathematically correct max-EV strategies on the highest

EV

> machines I can find, but well-written entertaining prose on
gambling
> topics is always interesting.
>
> -MARK
>

<major snip>

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4K@...> wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@> wrote:

#16

Definitely not the latter. Maybe the former. I dont go back to the
vp_heaven days, or the days when Singer actually was allowed to post
on VPFree. So I am probably underestimating how bad it really was.
But I've never been to Arizona, and I don't personally know anyone
named Singer -- or Argentino for that matter.

I appreciate 2-WILD's concern. If by conned, he means, taking Singer
at face value, he's half correct. When I speak directly to him I try
to treat him like I am treated (even if he's faking it). But that
doesn't mean I'm about to go make special plays on Triple Bonus. I
have an undergrad degree in math, and I believe in max-EV strategy.

If I lived thru more of the history then I'd probably realize
exactly how illogical I'm being. I certainly grant you that.

-MARK

LOL! This is a very illogical response to a HUGE PILE of Singer
nonsense. Has "Mark" been conned? Or ... more likely ... is he

part

of the con?

>
> Fair enough. IIRC, Dick has addressed all your points in many

posts

> over the months, and if he chooses to, he will again. I have
nothing
> more to add.
>
> As an aside, I resent Harry feeling important enough to express

to

> me and others like me his failure to understand why I don't move
on.
> I don't feel the need to explain to him or any others why I read
> VPFree. I snipe BECAUSE I like the forum, despite current
> administration, and I want to see it better. BUT the self-

appointed

> assistant administrator does have a point when it comes to you.

If

> you can tone down most of your contributions to this level of
> vitriol (with an occasional Dancer and Prancer thrown in for
> entertainment value), you'd be a fun read. Right now I'm still

in

> favor of mathematically correct max-EV strategies on the highest

EV

> machines I can find, but well-written entertaining prose on
gambling
> topics is always interesting.
>
> -MARK
>

<major snip>

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4K@...> wrote:

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <mark.mentone@> wrote:

#17

This sounds somewhat paranoid. Welcome to little dicky's town without
pity.

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "2-WILD" <lucky4K@...> wrote:

LOL! This is a very illogical response to a HUGE PILE of Singer
nonsense. Has "Mark" been conned? Or ... more likely ... is he part
of the con?

#18

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@...>
wrote:

> > The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to
break this news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real
world of a VP machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a
few years.

> Please explain the difference. Most home computers have faster
CPUs but also have slow disks. A VP machine IS a computer running a
single imbedded program.

If you read the post first rather than run around like a gremlin
trying to out-do others all the time, you'd have seen the answer.

I read the post and there was no answer.

Please don't TRY to look any more foolish than you already are.

Asserted lie.

It's
embarrassing with me as your sponsor.

RIV.

> > Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them.
>
> Again, please provide supporting evidence. Personally, I happen

to

> believe that people, not machines, "run in hot and cold streaks".
For example, let's look at golf. When a golfer is on top of his
game, like Lefty is right now

Now you've resorted to comparing a human golfer to a vp
player....and a golf ball to a computer! Incredible. How about
providing supporting documentation on THAT one!!

I see you missed the analogy completely. You even inserted your
comment before the analogy was complete ... which made it obvious to
everyone (must be RIV at work here). You make this soooo easy.

Seems everyone in the world but you don't know about the hot & cold
pre-programmed cycles, little dicky.

I think you got your negatives a little confused.

If, as you claimed, you had read "Hacking the Casinos for a Million
Bucks":

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:6ev-
BH76FmoJ:media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/97/07645695/0764569597.p
df+hacking+the+casinos+for+a+million+bucks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

you would understand how a VP machines works. They explained it and
it was very simple. No secondary programming, no hot or cold streaks.
They even used a well known RNG (Knuth). Next, I suppose you will
claim these guys are in cahoots with the casinos, IGT, NGC and
probably some aliens to boot.

What's the matter--feeling LEFT
OUT again by the nonsense-selling gurus? Mad at them cause they
didn't 'fill you in'? Is that why you have a hair on your butt with
Dancer all the time?

Once again I have made Robbie look like a fool. And, once again, it
is the facts that betray him.

Then let the sufferring stop here and now, and
let me help you out a little more. Each casino has it's own
individual Memorandum of Agreement with the machine manufacturer.

Save your watch ...

Every installation requires the vp machine NEVER dip below a

certain

hold percentage. And just how do you think the percentage comes up?
No, they don't call me in to play a few sessions. Take a good guess.

I already know. This is another one of your lies. I've already quoted
the Nevada Gaming Regs. I've already shown that Nevada VP machines
must be fair and random, with NO secondary programming, to be in
compliance with these regs. You really have sunk to new depths.

> But to hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of
> playing.

> That's exactly what it is. Try flipping a coin a few thousand
times and track the patterns.

The usual geek-argement to fall back on when lost in a quagmire---
the famous coin flip.

Notice the babbling when faced with a easy method to understand what
random means. You can just feel Rob's discomfort.

> > It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing?

I

> believe so in certain circumstances.
>
> If you trust in the randomness of the machines then there are no
such things as special plays. There are only plays. Over time

anyone

> playing will approach the statistical average of the way they

play.

You also forgot to mention you trust that your mama didn't drop you
on your head when you were a child--only we've seen quite the
contrary to that misadventure.

Once again, Rob cannot refute the indisputable logic.

> > Have I every hit a 4ok
> > or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using
> them
> > about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with
this,
> their
> > eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot

win

> that
> > way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines
long
> > run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point.
>
> The only "long run" that is meaningful to any gambler is THEIR
long run. Do you have evidence that using these special plays has
improved your results?

Watch out Bob. Even if you TELL this guy what he's asking for -

like

I have on how special plays that deviate from optimal strategy have
meant hundreds of thousands of dollars to me in profit (including
those two $25 quads w/kickers and the $25 RF) he'll come back and
either dismiss it because you're 'asserting' something without 100%
supporting geek-documentation, or he'll call you a liar (to which

if

you demand evidence to that effect, he'll skip over it the next go-
around).

No. Statistically, some people will do better than expected with any
approach. I simply asked Bob whether he thought these plays had
improved HIS results. What Rob leaves out in his story is the $125
lost quite often (and many times $1000) and it doesn't take all that
many to eat away the few wins. Of course, he's never tracked these
losses and therefore he cannot prove whether he is ahead or behind by
making these plays.

>
> > They truly
> > believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their
software,
> > books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very
> intolerant of
> > discussions that question that premise..
>
> I don't think "buying" stuff has anything to do with the premise.
If
> VP is fair/random with independently dealt hands, then the MATH
> predicts that MORE people will do better over time using expert
play.
> There are no guarantees. If you remember some discussions
previously
> on VPFree it was discussed that Max-EV strategy is not a holy
grail.
> Each gambler should determine their own goals and proceed
> accordingly. If someone wishes to sacrifice EV for the bigger
hands
> and hopes that they hit more often than statistically average,
then
> that is fine. However, telling others that this method is the

BEST

> way to win is simply a lie.

Well there you have it! He's already underhandedly calling you a
liar before you even answer!

No, I simply stated a fact.

> > This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree.
The
> loyal
> > followers are very aware that any thread that becomes

disruptive

> will be
> > moved over here and they will make sure that it is.
>
> I think the problem is one of accepting the machines are fair and
> random. Once you accept that, then everything is possible, but
> nothing is PREDICTABLE. Therein lies the problem of having any
> reasonable discussion.

Little dicky resides in fantasyland, where everything is hearts &
flowers, he nor his wife are compulsive/problem gamblers,

Asserted lie.

and the vp
machines are completely random.

So far, no one has shown evidence that machines are not random. If
you don't believe the machines are random then why on earth would
anyone play and expect to win?

It HAS to be that way, and HIS way
is the ONLY possible way. No one else could ever possibly be right
if it differs from his scenario. Otherwise, nerds would be
committing suicide from coast to coast in record numbers.

Not my way. The gamimg commissions around the US set the regs. I read
them and trust that they are enforced ... until someone provides
proof that they are gaffed. So far, in 30+ years of VP, no such
evidence has been found. Furthermore, evidence does exist that the
machines are exactly as they claim.

Rob, is this the best you can offer to support your assertions? More
inuendo and outright lies is all you've provided.

> I once happened on a bank of slot machine that was not working as
> intended (at least I assume it wasn't intended). It was a
> Red/White/Blue 1 line basic game. During the time my wife and I
won
> over $3300 we never saw any of the top jackpots. What happened

was

3
> red bars came up every few spins. All you had to do was keep
pressing
> the spin button and the credits gradually increased. My point?
This
> has happened to me ONCE. It is always possible to find machines
that
> aren't random/fair. Never assume anything. However, most of the
time
> it is more prudent to accept that things really are as they

should

> be, there is no conspiracy and all you can do is set your own
goals
> and proceed accordingly.

Yup, he's at his best when talking about gambling situations!

Thank you. RIV speaks.

#19

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rsing1111" <rsinger1111@>
wrote:
> > > The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to
> break this news to everyone, but your home computer is not the

real

> world of a VP machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for

a

> few years.
>
> > Please explain the difference. Most home computers have faster
> CPUs but also have slow disks. A VP machine IS a computer running

a

> single imbedded program.
>
> If you read the post first rather than run around like a gremlin
> trying to out-do others all the time, you'd have seen the answer.

I read the post and there was no answer.

Then your reading skills are as lacking as ever.

> Please don't TRY to look any more foolish than you already are.

Asserted lie.

Prove that assertion.

> It's embarrassing with me as your sponsor.

RIV.

Document that assertion.

>
> > > Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had

them.

> >
> > Again, please provide supporting evidence. Personally, I happen
to
> > believe that people, not machines, "run in hot and cold

streaks".

> For example, let's look at golf. When a golfer is on top of his
> game, like Lefty is right now
>
> Now you've resorted to comparing a human golfer to a vp
> player....and a golf ball to a computer! Incredible. How about
> providing supporting documentation on THAT one!!

I see you missed the analogy completely. You even "inserted" your
comment before the analogy was complete ... which made it obvious

to everyone (must be RIV at work here). You make this soooo easy.

You mean 'asserted' don't you?!!

> Seems everyone in the world but you don't know about the hot &

cold pre-programmed cycles, little dicky.

I think you got your negatives a little confused.

But not the point. Insert 'assertion'.

If, as you claimed, you had read "Hacking the Casinos for a Million
Bucks":

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:6ev-

BH76FmoJ:media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/97/07645695/0764569597.p

df+hacking+the+casinos+for+a+million+bucks&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

you would understand how a VP machines works. They explained it and
it was very simple. No secondary programming, no hot or cold

streaks. They even used a well known RNG (Knuth). Next, I suppose you
will claim these guys are in cahoots with the casinos, IGT, NGC and

probably some aliens to boot.

They're geeks, cheats and crooks, and they made a deal with the
prosecutor if you've ever followed up on what THEY wrote. You want to
believe what they said was complete and the end-all--have at it. I
know differently.

> What's the matter--feeling LEFT
> OUT again by the nonsense-selling gurus? Mad at them cause they
> didn't 'fill you in'? Is that why you have a hair on your butt

with Dancer all the time?

Once again I have made Robbie look like a fool. And, once again, it
is the facts that betray him.

I'd say that's a great big YES!

> Then let the sufferring stop here and now, and
> let me help you out a little more. Each casino has it's own
> individual Memorandum of Agreement with the machine manufacturer.

Save your watch ...

Huh? Is that a slice of Americana that I missed out on while helping
the country as you hid in the geek-room playing with computers?

> Every installation requires the vp machine NEVER dip below a
certain hold percentage. And just how do you think the percentage

comes up? No, they don't call me in to play a few sessions. Take a
good guess.

I already know. This is another one of your lies. I've already

quoted the Nevada Gaming Regs. I've already shown that Nevada VP
machines must be fair and random, with NO secondary programming, to
be in compliance with these regs. You really have sunk to new depths.

Then I suggest you read the ENTIRE regs this time around, and srop
fooling yourself. You seem to get stuck worrying about '2nd
programming'. Maybe you just missed out on the new technologies while
you were consumed with playing vp.

> > But to hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime

of playing.

>
> > That's exactly what it is. Try flipping a coin a few thousand
> times and track the patterns.
>
> The usual geek-argement to fall back on when lost in a quagmire---
> the famous coin flip.

Notice the babbling when faced with a easy method to understand

what random means. You can just feel Rob's discomfort.

And you can just cut thru the tension with a knife as little dicky
tried to come up with a more mundane, respected, and technical
explanation of the point he was stumbling through. While he so very
tightly clings to the belief that all machines in Nv. MUST be random
because that's the way he wants them to be, common sense once again
trumps the geek.
  

> > > It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a

thing?

I
> > believe so in certain circumstances.
> >
> > If you trust in the randomness of the machines then there are

no

> such things as special plays. There are only plays. Over time
anyone
> > playing will approach the statistical average of the way they
play.
>
> You also forgot to mention you trust that your mama didn't drop

you

> on your head when you were a child--only we've seen quite the
> contrary to that misadventure.

Once again, Rob cannot refute the indisputable logic.

Read on.....

> > > Have I every hit a 4ok
> > > or royal with a special play? Many times since I started

using

> > them
> > > about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with
> this,
> > their
> > > eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot
win
> > that
> > > way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the

machines

> long
> > > run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point.
> >
> > The only "long run" that is meaningful to any gambler is THEIR
> long run. Do you have evidence that using these special plays has
> improved your results?
>
> Watch out Bob. Even if you TELL this guy what he's asking for -
like
> I have on how special plays that deviate from optimal strategy

have

> meant hundreds of thousands of dollars to me in profit (including
> those two $25 quads w/kickers and the $25 RF) he'll come back and
> either dismiss it because you're 'asserting' something without

100%

> supporting geek-documentation, or he'll call you a liar (to which
if
> you demand evidence to that effect, he'll skip over it the next

go-

> around).

No.

Denial.

Statistically, some people will do better than expected with any

approach.

Attempt to save face. A 'random' approach if there ever was one.

I simply asked Bob whether he thought these plays had

improved HIS results.

Why do you think he told you about them--to hear you rant on and on
about how 'random' the machines are so that's what he should expect??
Wake up.

What Rob leaves out in his story is the $125

lost quite often (and many times $1000)

Asserted lie, and factual lie. In my strategy, the $25 denom. is not
a frequent level required to win. So your selective interpretation is
more than an outright lie--it's a negative fabrication of a known
truth.

and it doesn't take all that many to eat away the few wins. Of

course, he's never tracked these losses and therefore he cannot prove
whether he is ahead or behind by making these plays.

Here's a fact for you to chew on and worry some more about. Of my 227
winning sessions and 31 losing sessions, 32 have gone to the $25
level--with all but 8 being winners. The 3 winning hands I mentioned
that deviated from optimal strategy produced $140,000 in profit
alone, and I'm sure some others occurred on a smaller scale withing
that denomination. Even if EVERY HAND in those losing sessions were a
result of a special play gone bad, the effect would be minimal.

> > > They truly
> > > believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their
> software,
> > > books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very
> > intolerant of
> > > discussions that question that premise..
> >
> > I don't think "buying" stuff has anything to do with the

premise.

> If
> > VP is fair/random with independently dealt hands, then the MATH
> > predicts that MORE people will do better over time using expert
> play.
> > There are no guarantees. If you remember some discussions
> previously
> > on VPFree it was discussed that Max-EV strategy is not a holy
> grail.
> > Each gambler should determine their own goals and proceed
> > accordingly. If someone wishes to sacrifice EV for the bigger
> hands
> > and hopes that they hit more often than statistically average,
> then
> > that is fine. However, telling others that this method is the
BEST
> > way to win is simply a lie.
>
> Well there you have it! He's already underhandedly calling you a
> liar before you even answer!

No, I simply stated a fact.

More like an 'assertion' don't you think?? Or because i used 'think'
is it now an opinion??

> > > This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree.
> The
> > loyal
> > > followers are very aware that any thread that becomes
disruptive
> > will be
> > > moved over here and they will make sure that it is.
> >
> > I think the problem is one of accepting the machines are fair

and

> > random. Once you accept that, then everything is possible, but
> > nothing is PREDICTABLE. Therein lies the problem of having any
> > reasonable discussion.
>
> Little dicky resides in fantasyland, where everything is hearts &
> flowers, he nor his wife are compulsive/problem gamblers,

Asserted lie.

Provide documentation on your assertion disputing that it is a lie.

> and the vp
> machines are completely random.

So far, no one has shown evidence that machines are not random. If
you don't believe the machines are random then why on earth would
anyone play and expect to win?

> It HAS to be that way, and HIS way
> is the ONLY possible way. No one else could ever possibly be

right

> if it differs from his scenario. Otherwise, nerds would be
> committing suicide from coast to coast in record numbers.

Not my way. The gamimg commissions around the US set the regs. I

read

them and trust that they are enforced ... until someone provides
proof that they are gaffed. So far, in 30+ years of VP, no such
evidence has been found. Furthermore, evidence does exist that the
machines are exactly as they claim.

You're so naiive. You want so much to trust that everything is black
& white when it's not. For years the US Gov't. has written contracts
with legal wording that allows loopholes and inconclusiveness. I've
read the Nevada regs, and although I've not disected it as much as I
did the AC regs--which is full of holes--from my IGT contact to the
obvious cycles that ANYONE can tell are programmed into vp machines,
I have no doubt the same type wording is used as in the ones I've
been involved with in the Gov't. therefore, no one's going to look
beyond a certain point--which is exactly the purpose intended.

Rob, is this the best you can offer to support your assertions?

More inuendo and outright lies is all you've provided.

You don't have to believe it if that's what you want. You're not the
type to accept anything, proven or not, unless it was you who
uncovered it. I believe it, my results support it because it only
takes me 10 minutes at a machine to determine its cycle, Bob Sommer
seems to believe it, and more and more people are coming aboard. If
you don't get with the program little dicky, you're gonna be left
behind on this one too.

>
> > I once happened on a bank of slot machine that was not working

as

> > intended (at least I assume it wasn't intended). It was a
> > Red/White/Blue 1 line basic game. During the time my wife and I
> won
> > over $3300 we never saw any of the top jackpots. What happened
was
> 3
> > red bars came up every few spins. All you had to do was keep
> pressing
> > the spin button and the credits gradually increased. My point?
> This
> > has happened to me ONCE. It is always possible to find machines
> that
> > aren't random/fair. Never assume anything. However, most of the
> time
> > it is more prudent to accept that things really are as they
should
> > be, there is no conspiracy and all you can do is set your own
> goals
> > and proceed accordingly.
>
> Yup, he's at his best when talking about gambling situations!

Thank you. RIV speaks.

I liked it better when I called the writing 'goofy'!

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote:

#20

I usually do not reply to posts after I have posted because I really do not want to get pulled into long winded discussions and get accused of being a Singer shill or Mr. Singer himself (it has happened). I have never met Mr. Singer and only know of his system (which I admit I do not totally understand) as has been presented here, VPFree and VPHeaven, but I can believe that he has been very successful using his own devised method because of a few nuggets of information he has given over time are very close to mine.

I will try to answer some of your questions.

> The Guru's base everything on computer simulation. I hate to break
this
> news to everyone, but your home computer is not the real world of a
VP
> machine that has been sitting on a casino floor for a few years.

>

Please explain the difference. Most home computers have faster CPUs
but also have slow disks. A VP machine IS a computer running a single
imbedded program.

This is true, however, a home computer simulation of a game with perfect play is far different than a human sitting at a machine playing. For whatever reason, and there are many, no one can play perfectly. With every mistake you make, your odds go down for being a winner. Is there a way to make up this loss or possibly even improve the odds of your winning. I believe so and have done it for the pass six years. More on this further down.

> Machines do run in hot and cold streaks. We have all had them.

Again, please provide supporting evidence. Personally, I happen to
believe that people, not machines, "run in hot and cold streaks". For
example, let's look at golf. When a golfer is on top of his game,
like Lefty is right now, no one says "those clubs run in hot and cold
streaks". It's always the person. Why is it in the gambling world we
view the machine as the culprit/genie? While I believe the machines
of 10 years ago could have streaks based on natural variations in the
RNG, it don't think that's very likely today.

This I have to mainly disagree with you on this. I see machines get hot and cold streaks all the time still. Machines of 10 years ago the streaks were more pronounced than they are today, but they are still there. While RNG technology has greatly improved over the past few years, there is still natural variations within them. You have to actually watch and remember cards as they come up and look for patterns. They are not there all the time, but most times I can spot a trend. I know the brain sometimes think you see or remember cards that don't actually happen, but you can train yourself to eliminate some of this (what I call) white noise. I have gotten to the point that I can spot variations on TPDB and JoB. The down side of this is that when I sit down at a machine it will take at least 20-30 minutes of normal play to begin seeing these variations, if they occur, and it is possible to lose a lot of money in that time. 90% of my play is on $1 triple plays. A healthy bankroll is important.

What most people don't understand is that random is not a synonym for
consistent. Any consistent payout over time would actually be an
indicator of non-randomness. You should expect streaks. That's part
of randomness.

Earlier you said that machines don't go on streaks that only people do. You can't have it both ways. But more to the point, what do you do when the streak ends? Just plug away with expert play and let the machine suck your money away? Or are there play/plays you can do to help you get through the drought and possibility catch a large payoff? I believe there are and it has worked for me.

> But to
> hear the Guru's tell it, it's all part of your lifetime of
playing.

That's exactly what it is. Try flipping a coin a few thousand times
and track the patterns.

You will never convince me it is the lifetime of the player. Every time you sit at a machine it is a short session. There is no adding it up. Humans are not machines and will not be consistent 100% percent of the time. On the other hand, VP machines don't care who is playing them and are consistent in that they are programmed to deliver XX percent back to the player over their lifetime with perfect play. However a machine will not be played with 100% accuracy over it's lifetime and provides the casino with it's profit. We all know this. The idea is to take some of that extra casino profit by playing the machine a little differently than perfect play when the opportunity presents itself. As far as flipping a coin goes, it was proven many years ago, if programmed correctly, that in a million flips of a coin on computer simulation, that heads would come up more often by a very very small percentage of something like .002% if I remember correctly. I would not trust a human to flip a coin for a variety of reasons.

> I
> have a very good friend, that I occasionally meet in LV who is over
> 1-million hands of so-called perfect play on ducks, job, pkm, and
dbp
> with no royal. Most of it single line. When questioned, the
Guru's
> either call him a liar or that he is not using perfect play and,
being
> very rude, go on to another subject.

Being rude is not necessary. Anyone who would claim a million hands
without a RF is not possible does not understand randomness. However,
how many of these million was on pkm? This situation might not be as
low a probability as it seems.

This person very well understands randomness. He is actually up to 1.2k hands now without a RF. PKM only accounts for about 20% of his play. But I have to add that he has never had a straight flush on PKM either. He has had many RFs on all games on his home computer, but not in a casino. He also does not make any special plays, and plays only "expert play".

> It all comes down to "special plays". Is there such a thing? I
believe
> so in certain circumstances.

If you trust in the randomness of the machines then there are no such
things as special plays. There are only plays. Over time anyone
playing will approach the statistical average of the way they play.

I do trust the randomness of the machines. I also trust my ability to seek out and find anomalies within that randomness. They do exist.

.> And there-in lies the problem. It is very
> difficult to quantify "circumstances" because each machine and game
is
> unique and you will never be able to define it.

If it can't be defined then I have trouble understanding the
usefulness. I think one of the problems people have accepting expert
play is the number of times they see other holds "hit" if they would
have held them instead of the expert play. The missing part of this
puzzle is that there are 31 other holds and only one expert hold. Of
course, one of those 31 is going to "hit" more often than the expert
hold. The problem is you never know which one BEFORE the fact.

It is very difficult to explain, especially to someone who is totally math oriented or who worship the Guru's telling everyone it is the only way to play. Their minds are generally closed to anything that might even suggest that you can put a round object into a square hole. You can if the hole is large enough, and you think outside the box.

> Have I every hit a 4ok
> or royal with a special play? Many times since I started using
them
> about 6 years ago. If you approach a Guru or math whiz with this,
their
> eyes will glaze over and proceed to tell you that you cannot win
that
> way in the long run. I then ask, "My long run or the machines long
> run?" and they usually walk away from me at that point.

The only "long run" that is meaningful to any gambler is THEIR long
run. Do you have evidence that using these special plays has improved
your results?

Here we to with the long run again and I have to disagree. The only evidence I have that this has improved my play is my tax forms for the past 6 years. Prior to 6 years ago, I always had enough losing money to cover all W2G's for the year and paid no tax on them. This year I am paying over 2.8k on my VP play alone. Granted, some years have been better than others, and this past year has been rather good to me, but for the past 6 years I have had to pay. Having moved out of Nevada 21 years ago and living over 3,000 miles away, I only visit 2 times a year. I have been playing VP machines since 1980 and I only wish I knew then what I know now.

> They truly
> believe, for whatever reason, that only if you buy their software,
> books, and strategy cards, will you ever win and are very
intolerant of
> discussions that question that premise..

I don't think "buying" stuff has anything to do with the premise.

Sorry, but I disagree. How many times have you seen a newbee come on VPFree and ask how to get started and the loyal followers of the Guru's will immediately start hawking their wares. Granted a person needs a computer program to get started, but most disgusting are the ones that say you must buy all the computer programs because each has something extra. They then tell you to buy a lot of books with outdated information (or buy them for birthday/Christmas presents). If you really think about it, in six months of reading the VPFree posts and asking questions, will get you more and current information than any book will provide.

If
VP is fair/random with independently dealt hands, then the MATH
predicts that MORE people will do better over time using expert play.
There are no guarantees. If you remember some discussions previously
on VPFree it was discussed that Max-EV strategy is not a holy grail.
Each gambler should determine their own goals and proceed
accordingly. If someone wishes to sacrifice EV for the bigger hands
and hopes that they hit more often than statistically average, then
that is fine. However, telling others that this method is the BEST
way to win is simply a lie.

That's what the math experts and Guru's want you to believe. Every year VPFree has a pole on how you have done the past year. The ones that say they have lost I believe. The ones that say they broke even or won are very suspect in my opinion. Granted there may be a few that have won, but I do not think it is near as many as say they do. Human nature says you never want to be known as a loser, even in a random poll. They are just kidding themselves and trying to justify their playing the game.

> This is the discussion that will never take place on VPFree. The
loyal
> followers are very aware that any thread that becomes disruptive
will be
> moved over here and they will make sure that it is.

I think the problem is one of accepting the machines are fair and
random. Once you accept that, then everything is possible, but
nothing is PREDICTABLE. Therein lies the problem of having any
reasonable discussion.

While I agree with this statement on the whole, again I say to take the next step and think outside the box. Most people like to be in their comfort zone where everything is predictable, written down, and where the numbers add up as they were taught in school. They do not want to expand into the unknown. I have and so far I'm doing very well. Will it continue? Only time will tell. Next trip starts on April 23rd.
Bob

···

--- In FREEvpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rgmustain" <rgmustain@...> wrote: