The new machines at fiesta rancho now have a dinky hand labeled sign
on them proclaiming them to be "over 100%" with optimum play.
Has any of our resident math gurus run any numbers or devised any
strategy for these beasties?
ten hand stud poker
<<<
The new machines at fiesta rancho now have a dinky hand labeled sign
on them proclaiming them to be "over 100%" with optimum play.
Has any of our resident math gurus run any numbers or devised any
strategy for these beasties?
Developing a strategy for these is pretty easy and should
only take an hour or two. However, the task of finding the
hand distributions is quite a bit harder and would require one
to write a program to get the answer. I don't have any
desire to do this unless I find that this game is available
in dimes or higher. The current game is way to slow to be
profitable. Without the distributions of hands, it is impossible
to know the return, but I would be shocked if it is over 101%
QZ
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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "jack_page_99 <peso@o...>" <peso@o...>
wrote:
"The new machines at fiesta rancho now have a dinky hand labeled sign
on them proclaiming them to be "over 100%" with optimum play.
Has any of our resident math gurus run any numbers or devised any
strategy for these beasties?"
Disclaimer: I am the game inventor of Sigma Game's Ten Seven VP(TM).
Based on the agreement with Sigma Games, I cannot disclose certain
information such as return or variance (so please don't ask!).
Additionally, Sigma Games may make changes to the game that I am not
aware of; I have not played the game in its current form. Lastly, if
anyone wants to provide suggestions (both positive and negative,
including constructive criticisms), I will do my best to pass it to
Sigma Games, but I make no promises.
My main objective here is not to plug my game, but to provide
insights and feedback on the game, i.e. to educate the players (the
game will succeed or fail on its own merits). You can find more
information about the game at
http://www.sigmagame.com/tenseven2.html -- at the bottom of the page
is two pdf that provides more information about the game.
I have to point out two important features about this game (assuming
Sigma Game has not changed them). One, if the player is dealt a non-
winning combination then the entire wager is returned, I call this
the "bust-out hand." Two, if a player is dealt a royal flush in the
initial 10-cards, discards 3 non-royal flush cards, and does not end
up with any royal flush in each 5-card hand, the player is given a
bonus, a "consolation" prize.
I've been asking Sigma Game to provide good paytables that will be
attractive to skilled video poker players. If the over 100% sign is
attached, then I am very happy to learn Sigma Games is trying to meet
the needs of all video poker players.
Lastly, to the best of my knowlegde, I am not aware of a strategy
produced by a recognized video poker expert. Maybe someone should
ask TomSki to modify his VPSM software.
Good luck.
Please read my disclaimer in my earlier post. Please keep in mind
the 2 features that is unique to this game that is not available in
IGT's multi-line video poker games. Since you are someone who is
considering this game, please be aware about the variance of this
game, which is superior to comparable IGT's multi-line video poker
games. You might want to use TomSki's TSI model to rank this game
with other games, and you might be suprised with the answer (or maybe
not since you come across as a very knowledgeable player).
About the speed of the game. I was advised Sigma Game has a speed
adjustment button on the machine which allows for 3 speeds (I have
not played the game). This is a 10-line game such that you will
reach the long run much faster than the tradition single games.
About the denomination of the game. I will forward your comments to
Sigma Game about offering the game in higher denominations.
Good Luck.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Quad Zilla" <quadzilla666@e...> wrote:
Developing a strategy for these is pretty easy and should
only take an hour or two. However, the task of finding the
hand distributions is quite a bit harder and would require one
to write a program to get the answer. I don't have any
desire to do this unless I find that this game is available
in dimes or higher. The current game is way to slow to be
profitable. Without the distributions of hands, it is impossible
to know the return, but I would be shocked if it is over 101%QZ
<<<
Please read my disclaimer in my earlier post. Please keep in mind
the 2 features that is unique to this game that is not available in
IGT's multi-line video poker games. Since you are someone who is
considering this game, please be aware about the variance of this
game, which is superior to comparable IGT's multi-line video poker
games. You might want to use TomSki's TSI model to rank this game
with other games, and you might be suprised with the answer (or maybe
not since you come across as a very knowledgeable player).
I have no interest in computing the game's variance, but it is
pretty obviously going to be low. Virtually every hand returns
some money and hands that return more than 1000 coins will be
very rare (and that is only winning 20 to 1). I suspect losing
more than $100 would be pretty unusual.
<<<
About the speed of the game. I was advised Sigma Game has a speed
adjustment button on the machine which allows for 3 speeds (I have
not played the game). This is a 10-line game such that you will
reach the long run much faster than the tradition single games.
You are correct. Those 3 speeds are.... Slow, Slower, and Slowest.
Of course, maybe that has been improved since I last played the
game, but I have my doubts.
The amount of money one can bet per hour is the problem. I
suspect it is impossible to get in more than $500 an hour.
This problem is bad for everyone, since the dummies giving
away 5% will be losing much more slowly.
QZ
I have no interest in computing the game's variance, but it is
pretty obviously going to be low. Virtually every hand returns
some money and hands that return more than 1000 coins will be
very rare (and that is only winning 20 to 1). I suspect losing
more than $100 would be pretty unusual.
Please read my disclaimer.
1. In multi-line video poker, variance often overlooked. Please refer
to Jazbo's seminal work on N-Play machines. In IGT's N-Play
machines, based on my understanding, the variance of the game
increases linearly with respect to the number of lines due to the
covariance between the base line and the other lines. In my
invention, as I understand it, this covariance phenomenal does not
exists meaning the "variance of the game" (used loosely here) does
not increase as the number of lines increases as is the case for IGT
machines. To appreciate this point, place an IGT 10-play next to
Sigma Game's Ten-Seven offering 10-lines, other things being equal,
and witness the results.
2. The "bust-out" hand is new feature in VP, according to VP experts
I've spoke with, and helps lowers variance.
3. The rate a player loses depends primarily on the game's return and
the strategy employed.
You are correct. Those 3 speeds are.... Slow, Slower, and Slowest.
Okay, I will forward your feedback to Sigma Game.
The amount of money one can bet per hour is the problem. I
suspect it is impossible to get in more than $500 an hour.
This problem is bad for everyone, since the dummies giving
away 5% will be losing much more slowly.
As I stated earlier, I have pushed Sigma Game to offer 100%+ return
vp games to meet the needs of the advantage players and other
knowledgeable / "skillful" players. I'm very happy that Sigma Game
provides over 100% return multi-line vp as an alternative to IGT
multi-line vp machines. While I have not seen the paytable, based on
what I know, these machines are offering one of the highest returns
for 5-cent multi-line video poker (when played optimally) inclusive
of the royal flush bonus.
The catch-22 is that unless casinos make a certain amount of money
from the game, the other paytables / features will not be made
available. This is generally true for any new slot / video poker
machine. Therefore, unless the demand is there, it will be hard
press to offer the games in higher denomination, which is what people
like Quad Zilla wants.
Good luck.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Quad Zilla" <quadzilla666@e...> wrote:
QZ wrote:
The amount of money one can bet per hour is the problem. I
suspect it is impossible to get in more than $500 an hour.
This problem is bad for everyone, since the dummies giving
away 5% will be losing much more slowly.
ten_seven_vp replied (in part):
The catch-22 is that unless casinos make a certain amount of money
from the game, the other paytables / features will not be made
available. This is generally true for any new slot / video poker
machine. Therefore, unless the demand is there, it will be hard
press to offer the games in higher denomination, which is what people
like Quad Zilla wants.
I had a bit of a different take on QZ's comment (I suppose I should
just wait for him to explain :). He may like to see the availability
in a high denomination, however, I suspect his focus again was on
machine speed which will limit the rate of (and casino hold from) less
sophisticated players (aka "dummies"). After all, those players tend
to stick to lower denom, esp. in multi-plays. This speaks directly to
your point about casino profit expectation from a game.
- Harry
<<<
I had a bit of a different take on QZ's comment (I suppose I should
just wait for him to explain :). He may like to see the availability
in a high denomination, however, I suspect his focus again was on
machine speed which will limit the rate of (and casino hold from) less
sophisticated players (aka "dummies"). After all, those players tend
to stick to lower denom, esp. in multi-plays. This speaks directly to
your point about casino profit expectation from a game.
Harry, you are correct. My point was that the coin in per hour is
bad for everyone. Of course, if the game becomes too attractive and
the pros hit it hard, then the bad players get shut out and the game
will lose money. The game at its present speed is probably not
attractive to pros and so the dummies will lose to it, but slowly.
If the game suddenly becomes available in quarters, people will
independently figure out the ER in addition to the strategy (which is
not that hard to determine) and start beating on it.
I do have one question. Does the game still offer a bonus for missing
all 10 Royal chances when you get dealt a Royal? If it does, what is
the bonus?
QZ
I'd like to relate my personal experience on these machines yesterday
morning. For fun and variety, I put $20 into one of these machines at
Fiesta Rancho. It was entertaining, but I don't think I could play
this seriously. One hand I had would explain this. I had all four
10s in the initial 10 cards dealt. Of course, I did not select any
10s for my 3 discards. Several of the resulting 10 hands had 3K, but
not one of them had the 4K. I've learned to accept the Pickem dreaded
hands of 4K displayed where you can only keep 3K and 4 cards to the RF
or even 4 cards to an SF reducing or eliminating the possibility of
your choice resulting in a big win, but to not get any 4K on 10 lines
is more than I can accept psychologically.
I was very impressed with the software behind the game, automatically
calculating the possible resulting hands and other features.
I did not see any other new "stud" games at Fiesta Rancho. I intend
to try the new IGT Double Down Stud games if I find one with an
acceptable payscale.
BigKen
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "BigKen <kmorris188@e...>"
<kmorris188@e...> wrote:
"I'd like to relate my personal experience on these machines
yesterday morning. For fun and variety, I put $20 into one of these
machines at Fiesta Rancho. It was entertaining, but I don't think I
could play this seriously.
I had all four 10s in the initial 10 cards dealt. Of course, I did
not select any 10s for my 3 discards. Several of the resulting 10
hands had 3K, but not one of them had the 4K ... but to not get any
4K on 10 lines is more than I can accept psychologically."
When a hand like that happens, it gets either exciting or angstful;
maybe next time, BigKen will catch 2 or 3 or more quads*. BigKen's
comments on Ten Seven Poker (TM) demonstrated the need for a royal
flush consolation prize (when you thought not converting quads was
psychologically bad!) and the difficulties of finding the correct
balance to meet the needs of all video poker players. On IGT's multi-
play, when one is dealt a royal flush, that's ends up being a lot
royal flushes :-). This example shows the difficulties of bring an
alternative multi-line video poker game to the market (you should see
what is on the drawing board!).
Thanks for the feedback and good luck.
* If the game was offered in the version where the player was
guaranteed at least one royal flush, straight flush or quad, when
such hand was dealt in the first 10 cards, respectively, then the
game IMO wouldn't be challenging (btw, the royal flush cycle would be
incredible short!). With 10 starting cards, it's very easy to have
good starting hands and a "refund" if you can't make a winner!!.
Like any casino game (especially if the return is over 100%), IMO the
excitement comes from catching those rare hands, which makes the
journey a lot of fun.
"I do have one question. Does the game still offer a bonus for
missing all 10 Royal chances when you get dealt a Royal? If it does,
what is the bonus?"
Answer to part I: To the best of my knowledge, yes the game offers a
consolation prize for missing all 10 shots from a possible royal
(also confirmed by Sigma Game's website). I'm not good with
probabilities, but I believe you have a 1 in 21 shots to catch the
royal flush on each line.
Answer to part II: I am embarassed to say I don't know as it is set
by the casino. I'm told Sigma Game can offer various bonus levels,
some of which are quite sizeable. There was talk of making the
consolation prize progressive up to a limit, but that would
invite "slot wongers," i.e. cherry pickers.
In summary, the game that is currently offered has a return over 100%
(when played optimally) and still offers the royal flush consolation
prize. Good luck.
PS To summarize, Quad Zilla wants the following enhancements to the
game: (a) in dimes or higher denomination and (b) faster speed play.
I will pass these comments along the next time I speak with Sigma
Game.
···
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Quad Zilla" <quadzilla666@e...> wrote: