Teams

[tedchee]

In a message dated 12/16/2003 6:33:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
vpFREE@yahoogroups.com writes:

···

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:46:08 -0800
   From: elliotts@joimail.com
Subject: Re: Re: Casino Changes

As a progressive player and as an idividual who recognizes and knows
many of the other players, I can, with absolute certainty state that
there are few if any teams in this town. You speak with definitive
certainty and I really feel that you don't know what you are talking
about.

This is NOT intended to be an insulting or flaming comment.

There are many pros. Perhaps, there are couples and or brothers who
"team" up but there are NO large groups. No one group is big enough
to take over a bank of machines. Yes, an individual machine may be
played around the clock, but not a bank of multiple machines.
Elliott, I'll use your own words here:

"You speak with definitive certainty and I really feel that you don't know
what you are talking
about.

This is NOT intended to be an insulting or flaming comment."

I remember before Fiesta was Fiesta Rancho, I tried many times to play on the
Odyssey JWs which were being played on rotation. On several trips, I tried
but never got to play them & stopped going to Fiesta altogether because they
permitted that practice. I know this still happens. I don't know how you define
"team" but I think of a team as a group of people that is able to play a
machine or machines continuously during a promotion and they don't necessarily have
to be playing ALL the machines on a bank.

As an occasional visitor, I defer to your contacts & your ability to
recognize all the local pros but you can't possibly know everyone.

Recently, I played the IP promotion on 3 of the days before it was cancelled.
On my first day, I played a machine next to the restroom. The bank had 4
other vp machines with $ NSUD. I had no trouble getting on about an hr & a half
after the promotion started. The next 2 days I was gone because I had promised
my host that I would show up for his host weekend event in Reno which I'm glad
I did as attendance was sparse & he needed the support. When I returned, I was
surprised to see that all 5 machines were being played, 3 of them by women
who obviously knew each other well. The next night I had gotten there late &
learned that many of the $ NSUD machines were changed so I went to play $ JB
slant-tops figuring that all the best machines would be taken. However the 5
machines next to the restroom were still there with $ NSUD & with different women
on it. The next night was the night the promotion was cancelled except they
didn't make any formal announcement. I got there about 10:30 hoping to get one of
the NSUD machines next to the restroom when I saw another 4 women on 4 of the
machines with a tourist playing nickels on the one closest to the restroom.
The women didn't hide the fact that they all knew each other & that they
weren't playing at all. They were waiting till the clock struck midnight.

Each night I saw a different group of women but the behavior was the same in
that they all occupied the same machines next to the restroom & chatted like
old friends. I can't prove that they were part of a team but it's more than odd
that each night the NSUDs were occupied by women who knew each other & who
seemed to play together to the point that they probably started & stopped from
midnight to 6, the hrs of the promotion. I didn't make a point of observing
their behavior as I left early a couple of nights but since they were situated
next to the restroom & were often the only women playing that late you couldn't
help but notice them.

Doesn't it seem odd that a different group of women would come every night to
the same machines & camp out until the start time & play through the late
hrs? And after the changes they had the best machines whereas everyone else had
to take what was left mostly JB.

I may be wrong because they may have all been tourists who just got to know
each other & each night a different group of them "accidentally" found the best
machines. Or the other possibility was what I was seeing was a "team". What
are the odds?

So that we don't clutter up the board with rejoinders, I'd like to continue
this on a private basis. I have very strong (negative) opinions about teams.
Granted you know Las Vegas & its people a lot better than I do but my own
personal experience tells me that teams are more common than you think & probably
more sophisticated than you have experienced.

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[Jean_Scott1]

I think Elliott is talking about organized teams, funded by one person who pays the team members to play for him/her. There aren't as many of these as there used to be, I agree.

However, there are MANY informal "teams." These are usually advantage players who have met other advantage players and they informally share information about good plays. Some of these groups are small, just 2 or 3 people. Others are larger. Some people buddy up on bankroll to share risk and profits. Other "teams" merely share information, but are playing each on their own bankroll. There are some groups composed of several family members.

Brad and I are a 2-person "team" - we work out of the same bankroll and always play together, whenever possible with side-by-side machines, when we are both in a casino. I almost never play alone. Brad sometimes plays alone while I am stuck in my office. We have friends with whom we have an informal arrangement to share information about good plays. We always play on our own bankroll.

Now, here is what happens. There is a good play in town, say the one at Tuscany's when they are giving a juicy bonus for 4 to the royal when you get no paying hand. I could hardly find time to play, with talking to everyone I knew. Everyone was talking to everyone else in almost every bank of good machines.

Was this a team effort? Well, there might have been a highly organized team there, I'm not sure. But the majority of players were "on their own." Maybe small groups of 2-4 were sharing bankroll - who knows which these were. There were some family groups. But a lot of us knew each other!!!

So just because a group of people know each other and chat with each other doesn't mean they are a "team." They might be - but more likely they are just individuals who chase promotions and have shared the info with their friends - or, even more likely, they are advantage players who are on the same Internet list or who have found out about the same good promotion in many other possible ways, and they have turned up so many times at "good plays" that they have become acquainted.

The fewer the good plays, the more this will happen. After you are a local awhile - or even a frequent visitor - you see the same people time and time again - and depending on how "social" you are become acquainted and possibly become friends. Some of our best friends are people we have met at a VP machines.

This network of information, especially among Vegas locals, does sometimes shut out the visitor - but it isn't a conspiracy. And every visitor advantage player, if they were a local, would be seeking out the best plays and sharing information.

Now again, there are things some locals - team member or no - do that is not polite to others and/or burns out plays. Playing 2 machines, especially when there are people waiting for an open machine.

A gray area is calling a friend or team member on your cell phone. They show up and you give them your machine even thought there is someone there in person who has been waiting, perhaps a long time, for someone to quit. I think the casino would be doing a good thing by having a sign-up sheet, like they do in poker rooms. Someone can't give up their seat at the poker table to a friend - next on the list has that seat. However, I don't see this happening in casinos as they would probably rather just bar the advantage players!!!!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - The Frugal Gambler
Pre-pub sale on for January release of
"Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler"
at http://www.FrugalGambler.biz

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[aaquad250]

it's easy enough to get caught up in informal teams, a friend calls
you about a great play and she's holding a seat for you, so next good
play you find you return the favor and call her, next thing you know
you're on an informal team - great for you in the short term, because
if your team is any good you should be playing at the best
progressive in town on any given night - however, if a bank of
progressives is repeatedly getting locked up by good players
everytime the jackpot gets to a certain level, it will not last,
because casinos, being greedy capitalist pigs, expect to make money
and will pull or downgrade machines that don't. teams, formal or
informal generally signal the end of a play, because the casino can't
make money.

is there a solution? yes. just back down a bit, you don't need to be
so agressive, remember that if regular players can get on, then the
casino will make money, some of which they will share with you, and
they will gladly keep the games in play.

excessive greed is great in the short term, but always limits long
term play

do you really want to be the team that shut down the best progressive
or perhaps even killed them all? is that your goal? to kill all
positive gambling?