Tax heads up re OdySea gold coins

[vp1040]

In a message dated 2/28/2008 2:09:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
d_richheimer@yahoo.com writes:

This is based on triple+ hearsay, however presented on a cautionary
basis. When OdySea closed a team of auditors descended on premises.
Another store said they were IRS agents looking for records of those
who bought gold coins and resold them on ebay. Supposedly this store
said the IRS treats the sale as income.
There may be some truth to this. OdySea had a bad record from MS's
viewpoint. Early on they had ancient coins that players bought and they rebought at
a discount from the players. Players who did this were either banned or
warned not to do it again. OdySea was also warned. Then OdySea sold gold coins
to players (they didn't rebuy them) but certain players were buying them in
huge quantities ($30-50,000 at a time). Transactions of that amount did draw
attention to OdySea. At least 2 players were banned from MS (first hand
knowledge from one of the players I saw in Vegas). Per someone who works at one
of the stores at MS, OdySea was told their lease would not be renewed because
of the problems.

I doubt IRS agents as opposed to Treasry agents would look into a tax
matter. Furthermore it could be argued that the sale of coins should be
netted against gambling losses. Consult your own tax advisor for proper
treatment.
The IRS is part of the Treasury and they are in charge of audits of
unreported income in most cases. You would have a real tough time trying to tie the
sale of the coins into gambling losses.

However I would assume a taxing authority may be aware of gold coin
transactions, so I would tell your tax preparer and at least disclose
transactions and tax treatment used in a footnote to your return to
possibly avoid possible penalties, etc.

Agreed. Report the income and pay the taxes on it.

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jack_Gaffney]

The purchase of Gold Bullion or Gold coins is NOT reportable to the IRS. Any gains made from the purchase of the Gold IS reportable (by you) and treated as capital gains, think winnings on Blackjack versus a tax slip on a VP machine.

The bigger question for an accountant is what the cost basis for the gold purchased with Mohegan Points is to calculate capital gains. Odysea purchased their coins from Monex and in turn charged a hefty 1/3rd premium over spot price.

My understanding is that Mohegan charges all the retailers 30% of gross sales or something to that nature for having the privilege of doing business there.

Now remember that capital gains are only triggered upon the SALE of the coins. Gold Eagles just cracked $1000 yesterday, so anyone buying when they were in the $600's ($600 = $300 =$900) and selling now probably has about $100 cap gain per coin...for those who immediately liquidated on Ebay, depending on the cost basis, may show a loss. I am curious as to how the IRS looks at Mohegan points, if the IRS puts a cost basis at ZERO because you used your points to purchase the coins, then wouldn't that make all mohegan points in essence taxable as gains ?? If they look at them as "your money" since they were earned on YOUR coin IN, then I would assume the Basis would be whatever you paid for the coins ??

Any CPA's out there ?? I am very interested in this thread and will try and contact my CPA in the meantime.

Also, the chinese store sells Pamp Suisse 1 oz gold bullion Bars for about $1400 (a ridiculous premium) but still the best buy for your points. You can send these bars or coins in quantities of 10 to Monex and leverage them up to 5 times (meaning you send 10 they lend you 40 for a total of 50) leverage is good when the market goes up...bad when it goes down...for every dollar up you gain $5 for every dollar down you lose $5...But the entire planet thinks gold is going to minimum $2000 in the next year or two...idk

Heading to Vegas tomorrow for 7 days at the Mirage...wish me Luck...royals to all

Jack

vp1040@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/28/2008 2:09:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
d_richheimer@yahoo.com writes:

This is based on triple+ hearsay, however presented on a cautionary
basis. When OdySea closed a team of auditors descended on premises.
Another store said they were IRS agents looking for records of those
who bought gold coins and resold them on ebay. Supposedly this store
said the IRS treats the sale as income.
There may be some truth to this. OdySea had a bad record from MS's
viewpoint. Early on they had ancient coins that players bought and they rebought at
a discount from the players. Players who did this were either banned or
warned not to do it again. OdySea was also warned. Then OdySea sold gold coins
to players (they didn't rebuy them) but certain players were buying them in
huge quantities ($30-50,000 at a time). Transactions of that amount did draw
attention to OdySea. At least 2 players were banned from MS (first hand
knowledge from one of the players I saw in Vegas). Per someone who works at one
of the stores at MS, OdySea was told their lease would not be renewed because
of the problems.

I doubt IRS agents as opposed to Treasry agents would look into a tax
matter. Furthermore it could be argued that the sale of coins should be
netted against gambling losses. Consult your own tax advisor for proper
treatment.
The IRS is part of the Treasury and they are in charge of audits of
unreported income in most cases. You would have a real tough time trying to tie the
sale of the coins into gambling losses.

However I would assume a taxing authority may be aware of gold coin
transactions, so I would tell your tax preparer and at least disclose
transactions and tax treatment used in a footnote to your return to
possibly avoid possible penalties, etc.

Agreed. Report the income and pay the taxes on it.

**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[David]

--- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, Jack Gaffney
<jakgaph2005@...> wrote:

The purchase of Gold Bullion or Gold coins is NOT reportable to the

IRS. Any gains made from the purchase of the Gold IS reportable (by
you) and treated as capital gains, think winnings on Blackjack versus
a tax slip on a VP machine.

The bigger question for an accountant is what the cost basis for

the gold purchased with Mohegan Points is to calculate capital
gains. Odysea purchased their coins from Monex and in turn charged a
hefty 1/3rd premium over spot price.

My understanding is that Mohegan charges all the retailers 30% of

gross sales or something to that nature for having the privilege of
doing business there.

Now remember that capital gains are only triggered upon the SALE

of the coins. Gold Eagles just cracked $1000 yesterday, so anyone
buying when they were in the $600's ($600 = $300 =$900) and selling
now probably has about $100 cap gain per coin...for those who
immediately liquidated on Ebay, depending on the cost basis, may show
a loss. I am curious as to how the IRS looks at Mohegan points, if
the IRS puts a cost basis at ZERO because you used your points to
purchase the coins, then wouldn't that make all mohegan points in
essence taxable as gains ?? If they look at them as "your money"
since they were earned on YOUR coin IN, then I would assume the Basis
would be whatever you paid for the coins ??

Any CPA's out there ?? I am very interested in this thread and will

try and contact my CPA in the meantime.

First, I apologize for mis-posting. The story I heard said they were
FBI, not IRS agents. Since supposedly a tax matter was involved, I
doubted they were FBI as opposed to IRS, CT tax agents or auditors
hired by Mohegan Sun. Sort of illustrates the difficulties with
triple hearsay.

I am not a CPA but the following may be helpful in questioning your
CPA and other authorities. You stated "The purchase of Gold Bullion
or Gold coins is NOT reportable to the IRS. Any gains made from the
purchase of the Gold IS reportable (by you) and treated as capital
gains,..." I agree that according to current practice (although not
entirely clear under the tax code, etc.) such a purchase is not
taxable. However how does selling the coins differ from redeeming
points from a different casino which gives cash for points? The
argument for non taxability is that the cash represents a rebate of
supposed gambling losses not income. Possible analogues are if you
received a "valuable item" redeeming the old S&H green stamps and
sold it. It could be argued that the "valuable item" was merely a
rebate on other purchases and not income and selling the item for not
more than its value when you received it should not be income.
Another analog is if you received a bakers dozen of doughnuts for the
price of 12 and sold the 13th. It is more problematic making such
argument in the points received for gambling area, because points are
not directly related to net cost (win or loss) and perhaps should not
be deemed non taxable rebates.

As for your assertion that the sale of the coins results in capital
gains, it is not necessarily correct. In the example of the players
who get 50 or so coins and immediately sell them on eBay, the coins
would fail to meet the definition of a capital asset and would be
characterized as inventory (items held for sale as opposed to for
investment). However in such case, cost which is related to basis
would control the amount of net income (capital or ordinary). Based
on a rebate theory your cost would be your gambling loss, but, if
such theory does not apply, your cost may be zero. In any event the
IRS may have difficulty arguing that cash received from redeeming
points is not taxable, but merchandize received for points and resold
for not more than its value when received results in taxable income.

David

[Because I did not resell any casino items received, my interest is
merely theoretical and I have not attempted to specifically research
the issues involved.]

[Jack_Gaffney]

David: very interesting thanks for your insight !

I too have not sold anything, but will someday (who knows when)..lets keep this thread going i would like to get some really good clarification on this topic as I am sure others do as well.

d_richheimer <d_richheimer@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In vpFREE_NewEngland@yahoogroups.com, Jack Gaffney
<jakgaph2005@...> wrote:
>
> The purchase of Gold Bullion or Gold coins is NOT reportable to the
IRS. Any gains made from the purchase of the Gold IS reportable (by
you) and treated as capital gains, think winnings on Blackjack versus
a tax slip on a VP machine.
>
> The bigger question for an accountant is what the cost basis for
the gold purchased with Mohegan Points is to calculate capital
gains. Odysea purchased their coins from Monex and in turn charged a
hefty 1/3rd premium over spot price.
>
> My understanding is that Mohegan charges all the retailers 30% of
gross sales or something to that nature for having the privilege of
doing business there.
>
> Now remember that capital gains are only triggered upon the SALE
of the coins. Gold Eagles just cracked $1000 yesterday, so anyone
buying when they were in the $600's ($600 = $300 =$900) and selling
now probably has about $100 cap gain per coin...for those who
immediately liquidated on Ebay, depending on the cost basis, may show
a loss. I am curious as to how the IRS looks at Mohegan points, if
the IRS puts a cost basis at ZERO because you used your points to
purchase the coins, then wouldn't that make all mohegan points in
essence taxable as gains ?? If they look at them as "your money"
since they were earned on YOUR coin IN, then I would assume the Basis
would be whatever you paid for the coins ??
>
> Any CPA's out there ?? I am very interested in this thread and will
try and contact my CPA in the meantime.
>
  
  First, I apologize for mis-posting. The story I heard said they were
FBI, not IRS agents. Since supposedly a tax matter was involved, I
doubted they were FBI as opposed to IRS, CT tax agents or auditors
hired by Mohegan Sun. Sort of illustrates the difficulties with
triple hearsay.

I am not a CPA but the following may be helpful in questioning your
CPA and other authorities. You stated "The purchase of Gold Bullion
or Gold coins is NOT reportable to the IRS. Any gains made from the
purchase of the Gold IS reportable (by you) and treated as capital
gains,..." I agree that according to current practice (although not
entirely clear under the tax code, etc.) such a purchase is not
taxable. However how does selling the coins differ from redeeming
points from a different casino which gives cash for points? The
argument for non taxability is that the cash represents a rebate of
supposed gambling losses not income. Possible analogues are if you
received a "valuable item" redeeming the old S&H green stamps and
sold it. It could be argued that the "valuable item" was merely a
rebate on other purchases and not income and selling the item for not
more than its value when you received it should not be income.
Another analog is if you received a bakers dozen of doughnuts for the
price of 12 and sold the 13th. It is more problematic making such
argument in the points received for gambling area, because points are
not directly related to net cost (win or loss) and perhaps should not
be deemed non taxable rebates.

As for your assertion that the sale of the coins results in capital
gains, it is not necessarily correct. In the example of the players
who get 50 or so coins and immediately sell them on eBay, the coins
would fail to meet the definition of a capital asset and would be
characterized as inventory (items held for sale as opposed to for
investment). However in such case, cost which is related to basis
would control the amount of net income (capital or ordinary). Based
on a rebate theory your cost would be your gambling loss, but, if
such theory does not apply, your cost may be zero. In any event the
IRS may have difficulty arguing that cash received from redeeming
points is not taxable, but merchandize received for points and resold
for not more than its value when received results in taxable income.
  
David

[Because I did not resell any casino items received, my interest is
merely theoretical and I have not attempted to specifically research
the issues involved.]

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