vpFREE2 Forums

Take Action TODAY [at Suncoast]

"rastisrulz <vpvegas@charter.net>"wrote (snip):

We are often are own worst enemies when we rock the boat by
exploiting good opportunities which lead to the demise of the
productive games we love to play. We are much better off not being
greedy and practicing quiet discretion while accepting small
victories in battles, which ultimately win the war. Being low key
and quiet is often the how we remain productive in the video poker
game.

But these are desperate times that call for desperate measures. We
were forced into this situation when the SUNCOAST declared all out
war on 100% return video poker this week. We cannot be too loud or
too strong in our protest of this situation. Anything less than a
100% boycott of the SUNCOAST and its associated properties (bowling
alley, movie theater, restaurants) is unacceptable if we want full
video poker to survive the year.

What a flip of the coin. First, this writer recognizes the truth of the situation; that is, that the Suncoast was forced into cutting back on the good video poker by greedy players. Then he says we were forced into a boycott by the casino.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways! Another goose that layed the golden eggs has been killed by greedy players. The casino that was forced into desperate measures, and everyone loses.

The demise of good VP has been going on for more than ten years. It's amazing that it has lasted this long. If you want to see it last a few more years then spread your play around instead of pounding away at one casino.

Dan

···

--

Dan Paymar, author of the book, "Video Poker - Optimum Play"
Editor and Publisher of "Video Poker Times" newsletter
Web site at www.vegasplayer.com/vp

The problem is that we are all making assumptions about the profitability of these machines. The sheer number of machines and players makes it very unlikely that these machines were not profitable over reasonable periods of time. They may not have been very profitable compared with DDB but there just are not enough players capable of playing well enough to suppose that these machines are beaten to death.

Of course, I am making an assumption here. But it is not an assumption to say that it is not good business to alienate knowledgeable players. These are the folks that are not wed to a particular casino but will go for the best plays. They may not play at perfect levels, but they will not play short pay machines.

While not huge in terms of numbers or profitability, they are the folks at the margin. They can show a significant and noticeable shortfall in gross revenue which almost certainly translates to a noticeable shortfall in profits.

Both Orleans and Gold Coast personnel expect the same thing to happen at their properties even though they know they will lose a lot of business to the Palms, Stations, and other VP-friendly venues. They do not know anything officially but this is the feeling of several employees I spoke to today.

A whole bunch of people making a long-term $8 / hour CANNOT materially affect the results of a major casino. If they removed the VP machines and replaced them with hot slots like Beverly Hillbillies and Beetle Bailey then it might improve the profitability. But if they make them NSUD and they are not played (as appears to be happening at Suncoast) then they are just making poor business decisions.

If we as knowledgeable, imperfect players take our business elsewhere, especially those who also play negative expectation games, Coast will soon learn the error of their ways. Other companies WILL NOT emulate silly behavior.

Bill

···

What a flip of the coin. First, this writer recognizes the truth of
the situation; that is, that the Suncoast was forced into cutting
back on the good video poker by greedy players. Then he says we were
forced into a boycott by the casino.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways! Another goose that layed the
golden eggs has been killed by greedy players. The casino that was
forced into desperate measures, and everyone loses.

Desperate measures ?
Please correct me if I am wrong. I have been under the impression that Coast Casinos in general and the Suncoast in particular have been doing rather well financially for a long time. I am also not aware of any significant changes in their policies that would cause their profits to fall.
I have been going to the Suncoast since they have opened, and I believe that they just want to make more money, this is fair ball, I will take my business elsewhere.
Why would anyone want to go to a locals casino with bad VP, when there are others around with good VP.
I think market forces will prevail and after they see the drop in customers and profits they will switch back, just like Sams Town did.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Dan
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:46 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Take Action TODAY [at Suncoast]

  Sorry, you can't have it both ways! Another goose that layed the
  golden eggs has been killed by greedy players. The casino that was
  forced into desperate measures, and everyone loses.

  The demise of good VP has been going on for more than ten years. It's
  amazing that it has lasted this long. If you want to see it last a
  few more years then spread your play around instead of pounding away
  at one casino.

  Dan
  --

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They were profitable. According to a management friend, their hold
was slightly under 2%. Apparently, they desire more. Despite the
wild-eyed ramblings of the Alaska bush dweller, who longs for the good
ole days that weren't and who is certain that everyone at LVH loved
him, the simple truth is casinos always have and always will love a
loser and despise a winner. SC doesn't just want your shirt; they
want your boots too.

The problem is that we are all making assumptions about the

profitability

of these machines. The sheer number of machines and players makes it

very

unlikely that these machines were not profitable over reasonable

periods of

time. They may not have been very profitable compared with DDB but

there

just are not enough players capable of playing well enough to

suppose that

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <billc140@m...> wrote:

these machines are beaten to death.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paisonvp <paison@i...>" <paison@i...>
wrote:
<snip>

ole days that weren't and who is certain that everyone at LVH loved
him, the simple truth is casinos always have and always will love a
loser and despise a winner. SC doesn't just want your shirt; they
want your boots too.

<snip>

Sir, In the event that your friends are too polite to tell you, you
are a fool.

Just like people like whiskey and chocolate, casino love winners. If
a person eats too much chocolate, or drinks too much whiskey, they
die. If a casino gave away winnings they would die too.

Let me lay out in black and white.

Since this group is about video poker I will use it in my example.

The myth of full pay.

Every game has the theoretical payout. I am calling it theoretical
because your results may vary. Why? because you are human and make
errors. I have a copy of Winpoker, some of you do also. Now sit down
and reset all of the counters and test yourself. Choose your favorite
game, and start playing. To keep it simple play for say 5 hours. When
you are finished look at you play statistics. If you percentage of
total return was in excess of 99.8% you have the skills and talent to
play VP in exess of a 100% return. I congratulate you if you were
sucessful. For the rest of you you are living proof of the myth of
full pay.

Ok, now you are going to throw at me cash back. Yes I agree that
should be added right on top of the E.V. of a machine. the amount of
the cashback varies greatly, but in most cases would just about cover
your errors if you play at that 99.8% level. If you play less then
that you are still in the hole.

Next you could add a room to your total if you live out of town,
or "bounce-back" cash if you are a local. Are we above 100%? Maybe,
at this point more and more folks would say that they have made a
profit. I disagree. I think that more and more people have fallen
victim to very well prepared and presented marketing.

The next level of comes where people add the value of free drinks,
tee-shirts, caps, buffet comps written by pit bosses.... and so on.
Where does this stop? Is the end of this road were people attach a
value to the rolls and sugar packs they steal from the buffet to
the "total return"? Some of you are laughing, good for you. Those of
you I just angered should be picking up the telephone and call for
help. You may well have a gambling problem. At some point adding off
the value of these "comps" becomes the rationaliztion that defines
someone whith a gambling problem.

Casinos are big business like it or not. They have legions of
accountants, and stables of lawyers, public relations firms
advertising firms, investors and so on. Each of which is charged with
a mission to provide a product that allows for a target revenue to be
acchieved. Accountants and executives count their wins in any numer
of ways. Grose profit per square foot, daily gross revenue per
machine.. and so on and so on. There bottom line is like yours
revenue after taxes. to the casinos that is hard cold currency, and
to you it sould be also. You cannot spend buffets and baseball caps.

I have rambled way to long here, so I am going to close with this.
When you walk in a casino with a dollar, and walk out with a dollar
and a dime you win. When you walk in and walk out with 90 cents and a
ball cap. You lost, so sorry please come again. You Lost, you had a
good time, they made you feel good about losing. Think about it,
would the real advantage player please stand up.

Brad Humelsine

<<<
Next you could add a room to your total if you live out of town,
or "bounce-back" cash if you are a local. Are we above 100%? Maybe,
at this point more and more folks would say that they have made a
profit. I disagree. I think that more and more people have fallen
victim to very well prepared and presented marketing.

  Why? The numbers show that it is quite possible to play
VP with an overall edge of 101% or more on a consistant basis.
Playing near-perfect VP is not so hard. I make mistakes every
day, but it is rare that any of these costs more than 1 coin
in EV. Even 4 or 5 such mistakes an hour will only cost you
a dollar an hour or so. This is simply not enough of a loss to
eliminate the edge.

<<<
The next level of comes where people add the value of free drinks,
tee-shirts, caps, buffet comps written by pit bosses.... and so on.

  Few if any pros even count meals even though their value
does make eating out in LV cheaper buying food in the US. Free
drinks??? Those thimblefuls of soda wind up costing far more in
tips than they would if you bought them yourself.

<<<
Casinos are big business like it or not. They have legions of
accountants, and stables of lawyers, public relations firms
advertising firms, investors and so on. Each of which is charged with
a mission to provide a product that allows for a target revenue to be
acchieved.

  Maybe yes, maybe no, but the history of casino management
shows that they are very slow to change and generally incopetent.
Why should we suddenly believe they now understand what they
are doing. If anything, the legions of hired help have just
confused the decison makers.

<<<
Accountants and executives count their wins in any numer
of ways. Grose profit per square foot, daily gross revenue per
machine.. and so on and so on. There bottom line is like yours
revenue after taxes. to the casinos that is hard cold currency, and
to you it sould be also.

  Agreed, but lots of them focus on the trees instead of the
forest. Simply saying NSUD has a better return for the casino
than FPDW is not nearly the complete set of relavent factors.

  The long established success of this business
is a tremendous argument in favor of leaving the status quo alone.
Nobody knows what the long-term ramifications of this change will
be, but they do know what will happen if they leave this alone.
They will contiue to operate profitably. The risk-reward analysis
makes such a widespread change risky. The situation is simply too
complicated to quantify, so why rock the boat?

<<<
would the real advantage player please stand up.

  Many of the posters here are exactly that unless you think
we are all lying or delusional, We have been 'standing up' since
this group was created. In fact, it was created by one of us.
IMNSHO, your post directly accuses many of us of being liars.
We are not amused.

QZ

I have not accused anyone of not telling the truth.

If I have done anything it is to write about a reality that many seem
to ignore.

Wake up sleeping beauty, the emperor has no clothes.

Brad Humelsine

<<<

<snip>

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Quad Zilla" <quadzilla666@e...> wrote:

  Many of the posters here are exactly that unless you think
we are all lying or delusional, We have been 'standing up' since
this group was created. In fact, it was created by one of us.
IMNSHO, your post directly accuses many of us of being liars.
We are not amused.

QZ

Well said.
Remember for everyone that doesn't know what a "big nickel" is that takes
the time to disagree there's 5 or 10 that agree, but don't take the time to
reply.
Gary

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <tarpon@sportsfishing.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 5:35 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Take Action TODAY [at Suncoast]....... to help yourself

<snip>

Sir, In the event that your friends are too polite to tell you, you
are a fool.

Just like people like whiskey and chocolate, casino love winners. If
a person eats too much chocolate, or drinks too much whiskey, they
die. If a casino gave away winnings they would die too.

Let me lay out in black and white.

<snip>

You are the last person to call anyone a fool. You have been enslaved
with golden handcuffs & now brag to all who will hear about thier
quality. You are clearly a loser in gambling & likely much else.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brad <tarpon@s...>" <tarpon@s...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "paisonvp <paison@i...>"

<paison@i...>

wrote:
<snip>
>ole days that weren't and who is certain that everyone at LVH

loved

> him, the simple truth is casinos always have and always will love

a

> loser and despise a winner. SC doesn't just want your shirt;

they

> want your boots too.
>
<snip>

Sir, In the event that your friends are too polite to tell you, you
are a fool.

Just like people like whiskey and chocolate, casino love winners.

If

a person eats too much chocolate, or drinks too much whiskey, they
die. If a casino gave away winnings they would die too.

Let me lay out in black and white.

Since this group is about video poker I will use it in my example.

The myth of full pay.

Every game has the theoretical payout. I am calling it theoretical
because your results may vary. Why? because you are human and make
errors. I have a copy of Winpoker, some of you do also. Now sit

down

and reset all of the counters and test yourself. Choose your

favorite

game, and start playing. To keep it simple play for say 5 hours.

When

you are finished look at you play statistics. If you percentage of
total return was in excess of 99.8% you have the skills and talent

to

play VP in exess of a 100% return. I congratulate you if you were
sucessful. For the rest of you you are living proof of the myth of
full pay.

Ok, now you are going to throw at me cash back. Yes I agree that
should be added right on top of the E.V. of a machine. the amount

of

the cashback varies greatly, but in most cases would just about

cover

your errors if you play at that 99.8% level. If you play less then
that you are still in the hole.

Next you could add a room to your total if you live out of town,
or "bounce-back" cash if you are a local. Are we above 100%?

Maybe,

at this point more and more folks would say that they have made a
profit. I disagree. I think that more and more people have fallen
victim to very well prepared and presented marketing.

The next level of comes where people add the value of free drinks,
tee-shirts, caps, buffet comps written by pit bosses.... and so on.
Where does this stop? Is the end of this road were people attach a
value to the rolls and sugar packs they steal from the buffet to
the "total return"? Some of you are laughing, good for you. Those

of

you I just angered should be picking up the telephone and call for
help. You may well have a gambling problem. At some point adding

off

the value of these "comps" becomes the rationaliztion that defines
someone whith a gambling problem.

Casinos are big business like it or not. They have legions of
accountants, and stables of lawyers, public relations firms
advertising firms, investors and so on. Each of which is charged

with

a mission to provide a product that allows for a target revenue to

be

acchieved. Accountants and executives count their wins in any

numer

of ways. Grose profit per square foot, daily gross revenue per
machine.. and so on and so on. There bottom line is like yours
revenue after taxes. to the casinos that is hard cold currency, and
to you it sould be also. You cannot spend buffets and baseball caps.

I have rambled way to long here, so I am going to close with this.
When you walk in a casino with a dollar, and walk out with a dollar
and a dime you win. When you walk in and walk out with 90 cents and

a

···

ball cap. You lost, so sorry please come again. You Lost, you had a
good time, they made you feel good about losing. Think about it,
would the real advantage player please stand up.

Brad Humelsine

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot <vegas_iwish@y...>"
<vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

You are the last person to call anyone a fool. You have been

enslaved

with golden handcuffs & now brag to all who will hear about thier
quality. You are clearly a loser in gambling & likely much else.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brad <tarpon@s...>" <tarpon@s...>
wrote:

In case I am the fool, please take the time to explain your point of
view. I would be thrilled to hear your point of view.

If you really don't mind make you point without the personal insults.
A debate among peers works best, when the participants look each
other in the eye, even when they do not see eye to eye.

Brad Humelsine

You insulted the other poster & have no on ramp to the high road
here.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brad <tarpon@s...>" <tarpon@s...>
wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot <vegas_iwish@y...>"
<vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:
> You are the last person to call anyone a fool. You have been
enslaved
> with golden handcuffs & now brag to all who will hear about thier
> quality. You are clearly a loser in gambling & likely much else.
> --- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brad <tarpon@s...>" <tarpon@s...>
> wrote:

In case I am the fool, please take the time to explain your point

of

view. I would be thrilled to hear your point of view.

If you really don't mind make you point without the personal

insults.

···

A debate among peers works best, when the participants look each
other in the eye, even when they do not see eye to eye.

Brad Humelsine

This list is primarily for people who want to at least minimize thier
losses if not maximize thier wins. For you to declare blind loyalty
to 2 edifices & say you do not care what they do as long as they do
you the honor of letting you play there is not a good fit. That
belongs on a travelogue site where you can brag about the royal
treatment you received. Still, it is not excluded here. Bashing
others (of which I am not 1 but I fully support them) who are working
to improve their returns while pretending that you are on a higher
moral plane (& so could never do same) does not belong anywhere in
print except your diary perhaps. Your posts have been worse & worse
in terms of logic & information value while greater & greater in pure
gall.
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Brad <tarpon@s...>" <tarpon@s...>
wrote:

In case I am the fool, please take the time to explain your point

of

···

view. I would be thrilled to hear your point of view.

Brad Humelsine

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Boutot <vegas_iwish@y...>"
<vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

This list is primarily for people who want to at least minimize

thier

losses if not maximize thier wins.

I have been playing advantage poker for a couple of decades. Long
enough to know the advantage of doing so, and the disadvantages of
doing so. I started doing so after reading Lenny Fromme's book way
back when. Which by the way was about playing Jack-or-Better.

You Sir are selling me short. You have misunderstood my position on
the LVH and NYNY. I happen to like the suites at both hotels, (The
hot tubs are to die for) I like the eateries at both places, I like
my host at both places, and both places offer 9-6 and Pick-em.
Combine all of the above and in my case I rate them at the top of the
heap. Am I 100% loyal to the? Hell No! I just spent 7 days at the
Suncoast. Last year I spent a few days at Main Street Station. I
always have more then enough play anywhere I say to earn RFB status.
So I do mix it up with where I stay. If I pick a dog, I just call a
host at a casino where I am rated and have them send a car to pick me
up. Do I always return to casino for a second stay? Hell no again.

I will stand behind view that if a casino sees fit that they can ask
you leave. It has happened to me before, Once at the old MGM, and a
second time at the Tropicana. Oh well, so it goes. The fact that it
happened is not a badge of courage, nor an insult. It is just another
business decision on their part. You have to understand I am a
gambler. I played table poker for years, and still do once in a
while. I will bet on about anything but sports. To me the thrill is
in the wager, not in the comps. Hell playing table poker I use to
make more money on side bets then on hands.

Feel free to find your recreation anywhere you see fit, and in any
manner you feel comfortable.

Brad Humelsine

yourself

Wake up sleeping beauty, the emperor has no clothes.

Brad Humelsine

Is this a mixing of fairy tales or metaphors or what?

Nudge

···

----- Original Message -----
From: <tarpon@sportsfishing.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 7:19 AM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Take Action TODAY [at Suncoast]....... to help

Sir, In the event that your friends are too polite to tell you, you
are a fool.

OK, children, let's return to kindergarden.

In order to disagree in a civil fashion, we might try re-phrasing the above, let's say, with....

"Sir, I disagree."

or

"I believe you are mistaken."

or

"My view differs..."

There, that wasn't so hard, now was it? OK, class dismissed for recess and naps. Play nice!

Mr. Kelly

Those of us who keep accurate and honest records of our play and come out ahead know who they are. Those who don't keep records are lying to themselves as well as others.
   Though it might look that a lot of us are deluding ourselves. Many of us, myself included, are much more likely to report wins to the board than to report losses

Elaine
"Brad <tarpon@sportsfishing.com>" <tarpon@sportsfishing.com> wrote:I have not accused anyone of not telling the truth.

If I have done anything it is to write about a reality that many seem
to ignore.

···

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