vpFREE2 Forums

Suncoast Discretionary Comps

#1

As many of you know, we are now locals in Las Vegas until April 30th 2003.
We were comped two nights and $62 worth of food November 6 and 7 at Suncoast.
Then we played there on Monday the 11th and Donna issued us a Buffet comp.
We also changed our address and received the November mailer at the Club
Dinero booth. It included $25 off dinner at any restaurant (we ate at Via
Venetto and it cost us $2.50 plus tip). Also got $50 for $25 buyin for
November 18 - 22. Also a 100 coin bonus for four of a kind ($12.50 in my
case, for .25 10/7 DB). We have comped tickets for Roger Williams on Dec 1st
and while we were there, Donna comped us for Diahann Caroll tickets that we
used on Nov 11th. What Discretionary comps tightening are you all talking
about? We are strictly .25 players. Shirl from Ohio now in Las Vegas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

While playing, ask a floor person for a comp. If it is issued, that
will be a discretionary comp, not deducted from your points

···

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:46:07 EST, you wrote:

As many of you know, we are now locals in Las Vegas until April 30th 2003.
We were comped two nights and $62 worth of food November 6 and 7 at Suncoast.
Then we played there on Monday the 11th and Donna issued us a Buffet comp.
We also changed our address and received the November mailer at the Club
Dinero booth. It included $25 off dinner at any restaurant (we ate at Via
Venetto and it cost us $2.50 plus tip). Also got $50 for $25 buyin for
November 18 - 22. Also a 100 coin bonus for four of a kind ($12.50 in my
case, for .25 10/7 DB). We have comped tickets for Roger Williams on Dec 1st
and while we were there, Donna comped us for Diahann Caroll tickets that we
used on Nov 11th. What Discretionary comps tightening are you all talking
about? We are strictly .25 players. Shirl from Ohio now in Las Vegas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#3

I think I have figured out the Suncoast's policy on this - if one can ever
figure out the minds of casino marketing executives. I may be wrong but I
am at this conclusion by the different stories I am hearing from a lot of
people.

I think they have a list of players who always play 100%+ games at the $1 or
higher level. Then perhaps they take into consideration the number of days
they play and/or whether they only play on bonus-point days and/or whether
they are locals. I know a number of players who fit in this category who
can no longer get discretionary comps. Some of these people are also having
trouble getting discretionary comps at the Orleans.

On the other hand, I know quite a few quarter deuce players - and even if
they play often and/or only on bonus-point days they ARE getting
discretionary comps.

These don't seem to be absolutes since I know exceptions to both types, but
this seems to be the trend. I know the Coast properties, especially the
Suncoast and Orleans, just hate $1 and up advantage players - and they are
trying every way they can to discourage this play without blanket changes
that would also drive away non-advantage players. This includes cutting off
discretionary comps, reducing or cutting off direct mail bonuses, and a
general hostile attitude toward advantage players. Some hosts who used to
be so friendly toward me act like I am poison these days - I can tell they
have had the "word" from higher up. Some executives have been very frank
with me that they just don't like advantage players! Now this is not across
the board - some of the hosts and executives remain very cordial to me.

I may be wrong; but this is my take on the present situation.

A lesson to be learned is that just because one person reported getting a
certain level of comps at a casino does not mean you should get the same.
Some of these people who are scoring super comps on seemingly less play than
others may be playing some slots and under 100% VP plays as well as 100%+
plays. Of course they will get more comps - they should - they are paying
for those extra goodies!!!!

And we all better be prepared for the "brave new world." Casinos executives
are becoming more knowledgeable - plus the technology to analyze the
playing habits of gamblers is leaping forward at lightning speed. It IS
going to get harder to make a good per-hour rate playing casino games. We
are going to have to work harder: choose our games more carefully, hone our
strategies continually, STOP PLAYING THESE BORDERLINE PLAYS. I see casinos
cutting their benefits right and left and a lot of players keep playing
there anyway. This is okay for those that have the financial bankroll and
the guts to withstand the awful swings. Personally, I am getting a little
tired of them!!!!!! Brad and I are constantly re-evaluating our game plan
and sometimes it is hard to do but we plan to drop some of our "usual" plays
because our edge is just too small. I guess I am getting old and tired -
but the days when we lose $5000 in four hours just aren't as "fun" as they
used to be.

I'm glad I'm not some of you younger guys - you might even have to resort to
getting a "real" job one of these days, at least part-time. :slight_smile:

I hope no one takes offense here - I am preaching to myself as much as to
anyone else. Even a big edge is volatile - a small edge is positively
BRUTAL!!!!!!

Brother, I can sure take a narrow topic and run all over town with it!!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
   Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com

#4

This is not intended as a slam or disrespectful but could part of this be
the price of fame? Certainly they know your "message"? Isn't it realistic
that casinos would eventually "ZAP" the person who draws attention to how to
work the system?

To some people (me included at times) the places with the borderline plays
have other benefits that enhance the reasons for staying/playing there.
Plus to others we wish to maximize the trip value not necessarily make it
our means of income.

Casino are in it for the profit. I realize that advantage players are
relatively a small part of the entire playing group and probably don't do
that much damage. Or do they? Some of these places are not reaping huge
profits and a strong dollar or higher advantage player can affect the
bottom line.

If I was a business owner I would personally look to reward loyalty but
would likely not offer games where a sufficiently bankrolled person could
significantly affect the bottom line even if only on a short term basis.

I think that the days of a fulltime player could be numbered. But I am
guessing that the recreational player striving for a close to even or
slightly positive vacation play (considering all benefits) will likely
continue to increase.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@lvcm.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "AA VP List" <vp-mail@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Suncoast Discretionary Comps

Some executives have been very frank

with me that they just don't like advantage players! Now this is not

across

the board - some of the hosts and executives remain very cordial to me.

SNIP....

We
are going to have to work harder: choose our games more carefully, hone

our

strategies continually, STOP PLAYING THESE BORDERLINE PLAYS.

#5

<<This is not intended as a slam or disrespectful but could part of this be
the price of fame? Certainly they know your "message"? Isn't it realistic
that casinos would eventually "ZAP" the person who draws attention to how to
work the system?>>

Good point - and I have expected this for 5 years, since the book came out.
But this is the first time that I have encountered any backlash. Most
casino executives know that I bring in more play when I recommend their
casino and most of it will still be profitable for the casino because most
players don't want to "work" so hard at playing. It is funny - the Travel
Channel show on last Sunday and this Sat. night - features the Orleans
fairly heavily. That's worth thousands of dollars of advertising for them.
I don't average any more than 4 hours a week playing there. Even at double
points I don't see myself as much of a threat to a casino's bottom line!!!

<<To some people (me included at times) the places with the borderline plays
have other benefits that enhance the reasons for staying/playing there.
Plus to others we wish to maximize the trip value not necessarily make it
our means of income.>>

I understand this and applaud it. I should have been more clear in my
ranting that I was referring mostly to locals who play at high denomination
and for a large number of hours per week, for those who are looking for a
steady source of income, not just the occasional casino experience.

<<Casino are in it for the profit. I realize that advantage players are
relatively a small part of the entire playing group and probably don't do
that much damage. Or do they? Some of these places are not reaping huge
profits and a strong dollar or higher advantage player can affect the
bottom line.>>

There ARE quite a few advantage players, mostly local, who hit the Coast
properties hard. Not sure how many there are at the higher levels. I know
competition is fierce and local casinos aren't making money hand over fist
because of the bounce-back and other benefits they are forced to use to
compete. If they can identify 20-50 of the players who are hurting their
bottom line and weed them out some way, well, it looks like good sense to
me - from their point of view.

<<If I was a business owner I would personally look to reward loyalty but
would likely not offer games where a sufficiently bankrolled person could
significantly affect the bottom line even if only on a short term basis.>>

Some casinos are trying this obvious technique. But again, competition
forces them to offer better games (at least for the locals casinos).

<<I think that the days of a fulltime player could be numbered. But I am
guessing that the recreational player striving for a close to even or
slightly positive vacation play (considering all benefits) will likely
continue to increase.>>

My belief also, although I think there will always be some opportunities for
the higher limit "scrambler." They will just have to scrambler harder!!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
   Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com

#6

Yes. I think we are both on the same page or at least in the same book.
Scramble or perhaps go under cover.... I find that maintaining the proper
"image" is now becoming a necessity. Role playing and acting are two of our
weapons. You cannot act too knowledgeable without having some negative
repercussions. Obviously not as important to advantage VP players as to
blackjack players, yet, BUT I am guessing that eventually we will be wearing
disguises. ha ha.

I can see how Orleans would take the free advertising and then bite the hand
that fed them.... I do not believe that casinos are loyal to players. Nor
do I believe that necessarily we have to be "loyal" to them.

We tried an interesting experiment and basically stopped playing at
Harrah's. We took everything they gave us and eventually the stuff dried
up. We gave them virtually nothing for a year. Then we played one day and
once again returned to their good graces, were described as loyal players,
etc. These relationships are not personal, they are business. No matter
how good the host treats you, in my opinion it is not a real friendship.

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Scott" <queenofcomps@lvcm.com>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Suncoast Discretionary Comps

<<This is not intended as a slam or disrespectful but could part of this

be

the price of fame? Certainly they know your "message"? Isn't it realistic
that casinos would eventually "ZAP" the person who draws attention to how

to

work the system?>>

Good point - and I have expected this for 5 years, since the book came

out.

But this is the first time that I have encountered any backlash. Most
casino executives know that I bring in more play when I recommend their
casino and most of it will still be profitable for the casino because most
players don't want to "work" so hard at playing. It is funny - the Travel
Channel show on last Sunday and this Sat. night - features the Orleans
fairly heavily. That's worth thousands of dollars of advertising for

them.

I don't average any more than 4 hours a week playing there. Even at

double

points I don't see myself as much of a threat to a casino's bottom line!!!

<<To some people (me included at times) the places with the borderline

plays

have other benefits that enhance the reasons for staying/playing there.
Plus to others we wish to maximize the trip value not necessarily make it
our means of income.>>

I understand this and applaud it. I should have been more clear in my
ranting that I was referring mostly to locals who play at high

denomination

and for a large number of hours per week, for those who are looking for a
steady source of income, not just the occasional casino experience.

<<Casino are in it for the profit. I realize that advantage players are
relatively a small part of the entire playing group and probably don't do
that much damage. Or do they? Some of these places are not reaping huge
profits and a strong dollar or higher advantage player can affect the
bottom line.>>

There ARE quite a few advantage players, mostly local, who hit the Coast
properties hard. Not sure how many there are at the higher levels. I

know

competition is fierce and local casinos aren't making money hand over fist
because of the bounce-back and other benefits they are forced to use to
compete. If they can identify 20-50 of the players who are hurting their
bottom line and weed them out some way, well, it looks like good sense to
me - from their point of view.

<<If I was a business owner I would personally look to reward loyalty but
would likely not offer games where a sufficiently bankrolled person could
significantly affect the bottom line even if only on a short term basis.>>

Some casinos are trying this obvious technique. But again, competition
forces them to offer better games (at least for the locals casinos).

<<I think that the days of a fulltime player could be numbered. But I am
guessing that the recreational player striving for a close to even or
slightly positive vacation play (considering all benefits) will likely
continue to increase.>>

My belief also, although I think there will always be some opportunities

for

the higher limit "scrambler." They will just have to scrambler harder!!

#7

Geez, Jean. The casino execs don't like a nice lady like you? Just because you've gotten free rooms, food and gifts and gone on national TV to tell everyone how to do it and still win money?
   Unfortunately for folks like us, the casinos are in business to make money. Fortunately for folks like us, there are plenty of people out there with limited knowledge who are willing to give them lots of cash.
   The more I think about it, the more I think I'm better off staying in AC after I retire. (Yes, I have a real job to pay the bills. VP is a hobby.) The opportunities for advantage plays are rarer, but so are advantage players. (I don't think the casinos recognize who we are yet, but that may come soon.) The gifts and comps are much better than Vegas, though the climate sucks in the winter.
   Blessings and royals to all. See ya at the lunch on Wednesday.

Elaine
   
Jean Scott <queenofcomps@lvcm.com> wrote: snip
I think they have a list of players who always play 100%+ games at the $1 or
higher level. Then perhaps they take into consideration the number of days
they play and/or whether they only play on bonus-point days and/or whether
they are locals. I know a number of players who fit in this category who
can no longer get discretionary comps. Some of these people are also having
trouble getting discretionary comps at the Orleans.

On the other hand, I know quite a few quarter deuce players - and even if
they play often and/or only on bonus-point days they ARE getting
discretionary comps.

Some hosts who used to
be so friendly toward me act like I am poison these days - I can tell they
have had the "word" from higher up. Some executives have been very frank
with me that they just don't like advantage players! Now this is not across
the board - some of the hosts and executives remain very cordial to me.

···

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

Jean, it appears to me that you are burning the candle at both ends. You are attempting to make a profit by advocating advantage play and telling people how to "beat" the casino and accumulate money and comps. On the other hand, you want to make a profit playing $1+ advantage games. The Orleans will get free pub from the travel channel with or without your appearances. You have given away the secrets to winning and now there are enough local advantage players to cut into the casino profits significantly. I'm not at all surprised this is happening. I'm surprised it took so long. The $1+ advantage games at the Suncoast are headed the same direction as the $1 deuces. The release of Frugal II will only accelerate the transition. The process can be slowed down by cutting out the 50 or so locals who take the most advantage of the plays so that 50,000+ visitors will come to play those good games. That's just "bidness", nothing more, nothing less.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Jean Scott
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Suncoast Discretionary Comps

  <<This is not intended as a slam or disrespectful but could part of this be
  the price of fame? Certainly they know your "message"? Isn't it realistic
  that casinos would eventually "ZAP" the person who draws attention to how to
  work the system?>>

  Good point - and I have expected this for 5 years, since the book came out.
  But this is the first time that I have encountered any backlash. Most
  casino executives know that I bring in more play when I recommend their
  casino and most of it will still be profitable for the casino because most
  players don't want to "work" so hard at playing. It is funny - the Travel
  Channel show on last Sunday and this Sat. night - features the Orleans
  fairly heavily. That's worth thousands of dollars of advertising for them.
  I don't average any more than 4 hours a week playing there. Even at double
  points I don't see myself as much of a threat to a casino's bottom line!!!

  <<To some people (me included at times) the places with the borderline plays
  have other benefits that enhance the reasons for staying/playing there.
  Plus to others we wish to maximize the trip value not necessarily make it
  our means of income.>>

  I understand this and applaud it. I should have been more clear in my
  ranting that I was referring mostly to locals who play at high denomination
  and for a large number of hours per week, for those who are looking for a
  steady source of income, not just the occasional casino experience.

  <<Casino are in it for the profit. I realize that advantage players are
  relatively a small part of the entire playing group and probably don't do
  that much damage. Or do they? Some of these places are not reaping huge
  profits and a strong dollar or higher advantage player can affect the
  bottom line.>>

  There ARE quite a few advantage players, mostly local, who hit the Coast
  properties hard. Not sure how many there are at the higher levels. I know
  competition is fierce and local casinos aren't making money hand over fist
  because of the bounce-back and other benefits they are forced to use to
  compete. If they can identify 20-50 of the players who are hurting their
  bottom line and weed them out some way, well, it looks like good sense to
  me - from their point of view.

  <<If I was a business owner I would personally look to reward loyalty but
  would likely not offer games where a sufficiently bankrolled person could
  significantly affect the bottom line even if only on a short term basis.>>

  Some casinos are trying this obvious technique. But again, competition
  forces them to offer better games (at least for the locals casinos).

  <<I think that the days of a fulltime player could be numbered. But I am
  guessing that the recreational player striving for a close to even or
  slightly positive vacation play (considering all benefits) will likely
  continue to increase.>>

  My belief also, although I think there will always be some opportunities for
  the higher limit "scrambler." They will just have to scrambler harder!!
  ____________________
  Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
  Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
     Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
  Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com

  vpFREE Home Page:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE

  vpFREE Links:
  http://www.lvcm.com/tomesims/VP/Links.html

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#9

<< Jean, it appears to me that you are burning the candle at both ends.
You are attempting to make a profit by advocating advantage play and telling
people how to "beat" the casino and accumulate money and comps. On the other
hand, you want to make a profit playing $1+ advantage games.>>

This has always been a delicate balance for gaming writers.

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
   Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com