vpFREE2 Forums

Subject: Re: Re: Could This Happen In Nevada? No

#1

I asked the same innocuous questions regarding VLT's of several jurisdictions. All, except one, responded with candor and no problem whatsoever. Several lawyers took the time to give me concise answers, with no charge. (There were many and I have hard copies of all in a research file.) I'm sure you guessed the exception.
Here are the questions asked of the Gaming Control Board/Nevada Gaming Commission:(Sept 1, 2003))
1. Can Video Lottery Terminals (VLT's) be used in Nevada for a video poker machine?
2. Can VLT's be used for a video poker machine by Indian Tribes conducting gaming within Nevada?
3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos, can they be linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by the individual gaming device, but by a computer which links all of the terminals together?
I received several angry emails from various gaming authorities in Nevada for having the temerity to ask these questions and a total refusal to answer any of them. A Mike Wilson said that the questions were forwarded to him by the Gaming Commission; he stonewalled by claiming that the AG would have to respond. I was told that copies of the questions were sent to Brian Sandoval's assistant. After much persistence on my part, I received more angry emails. Guess whether I ever received a response from Brian Sandoval's Office or anybody else?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

I asked the same innocuous questions regarding VLT's of several

jurisdictions. All, except one, responded with candor and no problem
whatsoever. Several lawyers took the time to give me concise
answers, with no charge. (There were many and I have hard copies of
all in a research file.) I'm sure you guessed the exception.

Here are the questions asked of the Gaming Control Board/Nevada

Gaming Commission:(Sept 1, 2003))

1. Can Video Lottery Terminals (VLT's) be used in Nevada for a

video poker machine?

2. Can VLT's be used for a video poker machine by Indian Tribes

conducting gaming within Nevada?

3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos, can

they be linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by
the individual gaming device, but by a computer which links all of
the terminals together?

I received several angry emails from various gaming authorities in

Nevada for having the temerity to ask these questions and a total
refusal to answer any of them. A Mike Wilson said that the questions
were forwarded to him by the Gaming Commission; he stonewalled by
claiming that the AG would have to respond. I was told that copies
of the questions were sent to Brian Sandoval's assistant. After much
persistence on my part, I received more angry emails. Guess whether
I ever received a response from Brian Sandoval's Office or anybody
else?

Nobody to date has seemed to believe me when I tell everyone that
The Nevada Gaming Commission is a cross between the Keystone Cops
and a 1950s-style Soviet bureaucracy. They are probably used to
government agencies that as least make a pro forma effort to achieve
their stated purpose.
Possibly now, you get my drift...? I feel your pain, and maybe now a
few more people understand why I haven't run screaming to the NGC in
the past when I felt that I had been hosed.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Boyd" <maggie2194@c...> wrote:

#3

I'm pretty sure the reason some people are dubious is that we never actually
get to see these allegedly rude/inaccurate/unfair/dumb responses from the
state gaming commission(s).

Is there a website where correspondence from these bodies are posted for all
to see?

I only have one email from the MO gaming commission. A few years ago, I
found a cluster of Bonus Poker machines at the President Casino (St. Louis)
that had Two Pair set to 1 coin. Plug that into your favorite VP software
and you'll be looking at an 86.3% payout game. I found the MO GC website,
got their email address and asked them if that was legal. The response I
received was very polite and quoted a section of MO law that said slots/VP
payouts in MO can be as low as 85%, so the casino was not in violation.

I can assure you, if I had gotten a response telling me to mind my own
business or to stop wasting their time or some other ridiculous answer, I
would have no qualms about posting it for all to see.

carlos

···

-----Original Message-----
From: rockofjello333 [mailto:rockofjello…@…com]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 12:40 AM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Subject: Re: Re: Could This Happen In Nevada? No

Nobody to date has seemed to believe me when I tell everyone that
The Nevada Gaming Commission is a cross between the Keystone Cops
and a 1950s-style Soviet bureaucracy. They are probably used to
government agencies that as least make a pro forma effort to achieve
their stated purpose.
Possibly now, you get my drift...? I feel your pain, and maybe now a
few more people understand why I haven't run screaming to the NGC in
the past when I felt that I had been hosed.

vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

#4

I am skeptical about this post for several reasons:

First, as Carlos stated these emails are not given in the post. How,
specifically, were your questions worded and what was the exact response?

Second, whether a video poker machine deals fairly from a 52-card deck or
not depends on whether the jursidiction is Class III and what the
regulations are. In Nevada, it is clear. Any machine game representing a
live game MUST be dealt as if a live dealer was dealing. Therefore a draw
to video poker MUST be random from a 52-card deck. An approximation of the
complexity is that a VLT is a dumb terminal with the RNG on a central
server and that a "normal" VP machine contains its own RNG. This has
nothing to do with how the programming determines the outcomes. As it
happens, in the US Washington State is the only Class III jurisdiction that
does not require (and, in fact, forbids) VLT's from dealing randomly from a
52-card deck but instead acts as a scratch-off lottery ticket.

Third, Washington State's formula is absolutely forbidden because the
Nevada State Constitution forbids lotteries.

Bill

···

At 10:59 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote:

I asked the same innocuous questions regarding VLT's of several
jurisdictions. All, except one, responded with candor and no problem
whatsoever. Several lawyers took the time to give me concise answers, with
no charge. (There were many and I have hard copies of all in a research
file.) I'm sure you guessed the exception.
Here are the questions asked of the Gaming Control Board/Nevada Gaming
Commission:(Sept 1, 2003))
1. Can Video Lottery Terminals (VLT's) be used in Nevada for a video poker
machine?
2. Can VLT's be used for a video poker machine by Indian Tribes conducting
gaming within Nevada?
3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos, can they be
linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by the individual
gaming device, but by a computer which links all of the terminals together?
I received several angry emails from various gaming authorities in Nevada
for having the temerity to ask these questions and a total refusal to
answer any of them. A Mike Wilson said that the questions were forwarded
to him by the Gaming Commission; he stonewalled by claiming that the AG
would have to respond. I was told that copies of the questions were sent
to Brian Sandoval's assistant. After much persistence on my part, I
received more angry emails. Guess whether I ever received a response from
Brian Sandoval's Office or anybody else?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#5

I am skeptical about this post for several reasons:

First, as Carlos stated these emails are not given in the post.

How,

specifically, were your questions worded and what was the exact

response?

Second, whether a video poker machine deals fairly from a 52-card

deck or

not depends on whether the jursidiction is Class III and what the
regulations are. In Nevada, it is clear. Any machine game

representing a

live game MUST be dealt as if a live dealer was dealing. Therefore

a draw

to video poker MUST be random from a 52-card deck. An

approximation of the

complexity is that a VLT is a dumb terminal with the RNG on a

central

server and that a "normal" VP machine contains its own RNG. This

has

nothing to do with how the programming determines the outcomes. As

it

happens, in the US Washington State is the only Class III

jurisdiction that

does not require (and, in fact, forbids) VLT's from dealing

randomly from a

52-card deck but instead acts as a scratch-off lottery ticket.

Third, Washington State's formula is absolutely forbidden because

the

Nevada State Constitution forbids lotteries.

Bill

>I asked the same innocuous questions regarding VLT's of several
>jurisdictions. All, except one, responded with candor and no

problem

>whatsoever. Several lawyers took the time to give me concise

answers, with

>no charge. (There were many and I have hard copies of all in a

research

>file.) I'm sure you guessed the exception.
>Here are the questions asked of the Gaming Control Board/Nevada

Gaming

>Commission:(Sept 1, 2003))
>1. Can Video Lottery Terminals (VLT's) be used in Nevada for a

video poker

>machine?
>2. Can VLT's be used for a video poker machine by Indian Tribes

conducting

>gaming within Nevada?
>3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos,

can they be

>linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by the

individual

>gaming device, but by a computer which links all of the terminals

together?

>I received several angry emails from various gaming authorities

in Nevada

>for having the temerity to ask these questions and a total

refusal to

>answer any of them. A Mike Wilson said that the questions were

forwarded

>to him by the Gaming Commission; he stonewalled by claiming that

the AG

>would have to respond. I was told that copies of the questions

were sent

>to Brian Sandoval's assistant. After much persistence on my part,

I

>received more angry emails. Guess whether I ever received a

response from

>Brian Sandoval's Office or anybody else?
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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I will give you the email addresses and the exact questions. (Since
these are public officials I see no problem.)
MEWILSON@ag.state.nv.us
MKMENDOZ@ag.state.nv.us
exsec@ngc.state.nv.us
KEKIZER@ag.state.nv.us
CMDAVIS@ag.state.nv.us
The specific wording is, in fact, in my post. Furthermore, they
incorporate the wording within their response. (Actually, non-
response.)
Please understand that I am not acusing the NGC of nefarious
activity; I am merely saying they refused to answer fundamental VLT
questions.
Instead of getting into a lengthy discussion on the legal
requirements of VLT's, I will tell you that not all VLT's are as you
describe. Some states require VLT's have RNG's and others
don't.Individual tribal compacts with some states are uniform and
individualized by tribe in others.
This is an extremely complex issue and many decisions are pending;
mostly, they are being decided by the courts within a jurisdiction.
Please send me your address and let me know which emails you would
like and I'll mail copies. My computer had a terminal illness
several months ago and had to be completely reconfigured.
Fortunately I had hard copies of the information, along with the
actual emails.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 10:59 PM 12/10/2004, you wrote:

#6

This is why I stated clearly that I was giving an "approximation of the
complexity" in order to clarify that dealing from a 52-card deck is
determined by the class of the machine rather than whether it is a VLT or
not. It is quite true that some VLT's have independent RNG's but pointing
that out (as I have before) would have only distracted from the main point.

Another poster stated that other jurisdictions than Washington State have
VLT's that do not deal from a 52-card deck. As far as I know Washington is
the only (US) Class III jurisdiction that is structured this way. If you
know of any others please post it but I was told two months ago by a
leading vendor of VLT's that Washington is unique in this respect. She is
the one that half-jokingly said they refer to Washington as Class 2 1/2.

B

···

At 02:43 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote:

Instead of getting into a lengthy discussion on the legal
requirements of VLT's, I will tell you that not all VLT's are as you
describe. Some states require VLT's have RNG's and others
don't.Individual tribal compacts with some states are uniform and
individualized by tribe in others.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#7

last i read nigc was still taking input on exactly what is class II
and what is class III - so basically these terms have not yet been
defined by the federal regulators, but eventually all indian gaming
independent of state will fall into compliance with nigc regulations,
when they are defined
(applies only to indian gaming, the states with regulated gambling
have their own regulations, for example, nevada doesn't have
lotteries, it has keno)

This is why I stated clearly that I was giving an "approximation of

the

complexity" in order to clarify that dealing from a 52-card deck is
determined by the class of the machine rather than whether it is a

VLT or

not. It is quite true that some VLT's have independent RNG's but

pointing

that out (as I have before) would have only distracted from the main

point.

Another poster stated that other jurisdictions than Washington State

have

VLT's that do not deal from a 52-card deck. As far as I know

Washington is

the only (US) Class III jurisdiction that is structured this way. If

you

know of any others please post it but I was told two months ago by

a

leading vendor of VLT's that Washington is unique in this respect.

She is

the one that half-jokingly said they refer to Washington as Class 2

1/2.

B

>Instead of getting into a lengthy discussion on the legal
>requirements of VLT's, I will tell you that not all VLT's are as

you

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Coleman <vphobby@c...> wrote:

At 02:43 PM 12/11/2004, you wrote:
>describe. Some states require VLT's have RNG's and others
>don't.Individual tribal compacts with some states are uniform and
>individualized by tribe in others.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#8

3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos, can

they be linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by the
individual gaming device, but by a computer which links all of the
terminals together?

Regarding your third question, I've always wondered precisely how
Megabucks and Wheel of Fortune work. Does each machine generate its
own result based on its own RNG, or is the random number transmitted
from a high speed central computer? I've always assumed each machine
does its own work. But (for example), if a casino has two banks of
WofF close to each other the big jackpot is the same on both, so
obviously the central computer is in control to that extent. If it
does this it would be possible to go further and let the central
computer control everything by sending a "queue" of random numbers
down to each bank where they are picked up, one at a time, as people
play. If that's how they work, would that be a VLT?

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Boyd" <maggie2194@c...> wrote:

#9

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Boyd" <maggie2194@c...>

wrote:

> 3.If VLT's are allowed in either commercial or tribal casinos,

can

they be linked in such a way that the winner is not determined by

the

individual gaming device, but by a computer which links all of the
terminals together?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Regarding your third question, I've always wondered precisely how
Megabucks and Wheel of Fortune work. Does each machine generate

its

own result based on its own RNG, or is the random number

transmitted

from a high speed central computer? I've always assumed each

machine

does its own work. But (for example), if a casino has two banks

of

WofF close to each other the big jackpot is the same on both, so
obviously the central computer is in control to that extent. If

it

does this it would be possible to go further and let the central
computer control everything by sending a "queue" of random numbers
down to each bank where they are picked up, one at a time, as

people

play. If that's how they work, would that be a VLT?

I don't think it would be classified as a VLT because VLT's are
owned by a state lottery or a tribe allowed to have lotteries and
slot machines are owned by a casino or a tribe allowed to have slot
machines. (Source: Ira Rose)
We all know that there is no state lottery in Nevada, and I hope it
stays that way.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "brumar_lv" <brumar_lv@y...> wrote:

#10

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "rockofjello333"
<rockofjello333@y...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Boyd" <maggie2194@c...>

wrote:

Linda,

Am I silly to suggest that this has the makings of a wonderful
newspaper article for the LVRJ? It seems the basic research would
be easy for a reporter to verify and the resulting story would
prompt some sort of reply from the Nevada commision.